Koisuru (Otome) no Tsukurikata - Vol. 5 Ch. 46

[nyannibalism]

what in the hell fucking happened in here?
bp oilspill conditions in this thread good lord, cause if the oil didnt kill me the lack of oxygen will

 

[Thrembs]

If you removed the parts where these characters say they aren't trans, you wouldn't have an argument to them not being trans.

This isn't how gender nonconforming men are written.

I’m trans, as a preface.
Ferris is more fleshed-out in the books and it’s more clear that he’s femme because Crusch wanted him to. It’s sad. I mean, I think it’s well-written, it’s just a sate aspect of his character.

Ive met a number of women who are butch af. All the time. Talk, act, dress masculine. I have no reason to just say “they must actually be a man.”

Why does a comic about two people figuring out how they feel best in the world and their own skin need to be 100% true to life in some points a few people are nitpicking, while being… a comic.

It’s not perfect, but considering how it started, I think Hiura being trans would be super problematic. It would be “I’ll turn all the way into a girl for this boy to like me.”
Much like some oneshot added to a BL manga to fill a tank I once saw. In it a woman detransitions so she can be with a gay guy, because he’d turned her down, and happily ever after. Because that’s how anything works… 🙄

There’s “not quite accurate“ (fiction can’t be, really. Reality is too complex) and there’s ”offensive” (which this isn’t. Ferris? There’s an argument to be made. That’s messy within the world, and messier in analysis).
Also, there’s no real “right way“ to write a trans character, so to say Hiura, who has never said anything I find relatable, must be trans because he did or said whatever is absurd.

The writing of this manga started out very awkward to read, got less clumsy over time.

I think Iori of Ikemen Joshi & Josou Danshi is better-written. He has an interesting balance of masc and femme characteristics.
Even that had to take a couple chapters to make it clear that he doesn’t have gender dysphoria, and I was glad of that.

I’m sure a number of people got angy about that.

PS, smol is not known for being calm, polite, or accepting of gender variance (only variance in presentation). I’m aware of that. They’re a stopped clock being correct in this case. It happens.

 

[Thrembs]

what in the hell fucking happened in here?

This:

but it’s just two of the Michael Palin character taking turns forever.

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

I’m trans, as a preface.
Ferris is more fleshed-out in the books and it’s more clear that he’s femme because Crusch wanted him to. It’s sad. I mean, I think it’s well-written, it’s just a sate aspect of his character.

Ive met a number of women who are butch af. All the time. Talk, act, dress masculine. I have no reason to just say “they must actually be a man.”

Why does a comic about two people figuring out how they feel best in the world and their own skin need to be 100% true to life in some points a few people are nitpicking, while being… a comic.

It’s not perfect, but considering how it started, I think Hiura being trans would be super problematic. It would be “I’ll turn all the way into a girl for this boy to like me.”
Much like some oneshot added to a BL manga to fill a tank I once saw. In it a woman detransitions so she can be with a gay guy, because he’d turned her down, and happily ever after. Because that’s how anything works… 🙄

There’s “not quite accurate“ (fiction can’t be, really. Reality is too complex) and there’s ”offensive” (which this isn’t. Ferris? There’s an argument to be made. That’s messy within the world, and messier in analysis).
Also, there’s no real “right way“ to write a trans character, so to say Hiura, who has never said anything I find relatable, must be trans because he did or said whatever is absurd.

The writing of this manga started out very awkward to read, got less clumsy over time.

I think Iori of Ikemen Joshi & Josou Danshi is better-written. He has an interesting balance of masc and femme characteristics.
Even that had to take a couple chapters to make it clear that he doesn’t have gender dysphoria, and I was glad of that.

I’m sure a number of people got angy about that.

PS, smol is not known for being calm, polite, or accepting of gender variance (only variance in presentation). I’m aware of that. They’re a stopped clock being correct in this case. It happened.

Actually, ikemen Joshi & josou danshi is a great example of how to write a feminine male character without confusing them with being trans.

Another example is "the boy who cried wolf tells another lie", where the main character is a crossdresser, but is distinguished from the actual trans female character (his big sister) in multiple ways.

 

[smolbaka]

If you removed the parts where these characters say they aren't trans, you wouldn't have an argument to them not being trans.

This isn't how gender nonconforming men are written.

This is how gender non conforming men are written. ???

Take Makoto from Senpai Wa Otokonoko as an example. Liked girly things but was on the fence of living as a girl or "acting like a man" more by his parents.

There was no shortage of dipshits who wanted him to be a trans girl on reddit and mangadex comments.

For some reason people like you don't believe this mystical 3rd option of just being a boy who likes cute things when the character starts questioning about this stuff. Every avenue leads to being trans with you.

At the end of the manga, makoto confronts his parents that he is a normal boy who likes crossdressing, pink, etc.

Yet... Despite the ending... people still headcanon him as a trans girl, I seen it on twitter and reddit...

I do need to tell you that makoto wasn't experiencing gender dysphoria, but social anxiety and how at times he felt gross as a boy who's interested in this stuff. But that's somehow proof enough he's "trans" to people like you.

I'm amazed how Senpai Wa Otokonoko outed Just how backwards some people are. Where transitioning is put above making a boy feel comfortable and accepted as a crossdresser or femboy.

 

[Trevoga]

He's trans the same way Fertis from Re:Zero and that one character from Steins:Gate. They're clearly trans and not just femboys, and the only way they aren't trans is because they say they aren't, because the author doesn't understand trans people exist.

The Steins:Gate character is actually the perfect analogue for Hiura. Both are supposed to be gay men, who want to become women to get with their straight crushes. But that's not how gay men work. Gay men don't want to be women. That's how I thought gay people worked when I was 13, when I thought gay men were just men with female brains, because female brain = likes guys.

"I want... to be a girl." Luka from Steins;Gate. The team then proceeds to do frankly idiotic timeline change shennanigans to make it so she is born biologically female.
"The me right now is living his best life. I used to despise my body, but now I am happy that I was born with it... But still, that doesn't actually make me a girl..." Hiura from this very chapter. He then proceeds to spend 18 and counting chapters being confidently himself, a crossdressing guy.
Stop providing smolbaka with ammunition by being so clearly wrong.

 

[Thrembs]

Actually, ikemen Joshi & josou danshi is a great example of how to write a feminine male character without confusing them with being trans.

Another example is "the boy who cried wolf tells another lie", where the main character is a crossdresser, but is distinguished from the actual trans female character (his big sister) in multiple ways.

Well, I’ll check that latter one out.

None of these are perfect, but I do think Iori is a more well-written character than Hiura in many ways. something that can’t really be translated is that at no point does he stop speaking in a masculine manner. Almost zero attempt at passing, just being cute. (Well, the beach situatio was understandably awkward. I think that makes sense, to an extent). Hiura has a more complex backstory, though.

I think the issue here is that this series was originally just some “lol, crossdressing for the gaeye“ on pixiv/Twitter, but had to wrangle itself into something better over time without totally retconning character.

I think he author did OK, considering the publisher wouldn’t allow anything that would drop readership. Thus the corrections being subtle and done to he background, not foreground of their personalities.

I don’t remember the translated title but 女装してオフ会に参加してみた is great, too. That author listened to feedback from trans readers about one or two issues with how a trans character was handled (her net handle was so cringe before publicatio), and when she got a story arc I cried multiple times.
So good, because it wasn’t just another coming out/coming to terms story.
All the characters who cross-dress in that have different motivations.

Another example of a series starting “oof” and getting amazing is 合コンに行ったら女がいなかった話. other direction of cross-dressing. First few chapters have some not-so-heinous surface-level homophobia, but it fades out pretty quick. I saw some clips of the drama and it was cast terribly, and structured idiotically. There’s an anime incoming.
I ADORE that series. Hagi and Kouhaku… ☺️
Fuji KILLS me 🤣


In summary, just because something could be better, doesn’t make it terrible.

This ain’t “Tr** Heroine”.

 

[Thrembs]

This is how gender non conforming men are written. ???

Take Makoto from Senpai Wa Otokonoko as an example. Liked girly things but was on the fence of living as a girl or "acting like a man" more by his parents.

There was no shortage of dipshits who wanted him to be a trans girl on reddit and mangadex comments.

For some reason people like you don't believe this mystical 3rd option of just being a boy who likes cute things when the character starts questioning about this stuff. Every avenue leads to being trans with you.

At the end of the manga, makoto confronts his parents that he is a normal boy who likes crossdressing, pink, etc.

Yet... Despite the ending... people still headcanon him as a trans girl, I seen it on twitter and reddit...

I do need to tell you that makoto wasn't experiencing gender dysphoria, but social anxiety and how at times he felt gross as a boy who's interested in this stuff. But that's somehow proof enough he's "trans" to people like you.

I'm amazed how Senpai Wa Otokonoko outed Just how backwards some people are. Where transitioning is put above making a boy feel comfortable and accepted as a crossdresser or femboy.

If you toned things down and made it less broad than “people like you”. I would call this post quite reasonable.

SenKo (i hate romanji so the less the better. My hang up) is a great example of differentiating being an AMAB girl and being a boy who is femme.
Does he feel a need to present femme? Yeah. He’s a guy, and has a way he feels comfortable. Doesn’t make him trans.
I’m a woman, and that’s me. I feel more comfortable in traditional women’s clothes. Whoopdie shit. Doesn’t make me a bad feminist for dressing modestly. I get to choose that.
A trans woman shows up, and her radar pings “boys”. She says “have fun!” and leaves. A quick “just to be clear!” moment from the author.

There’s no “right way” to gender, and there’s no perfectly-written story. Being critical of how something is written doesn’t mean “this character is trans/not trans because this part of the writing is off”. Say “this part could be written better, imo”.
If the character or story explicitly says “not trans”, then THEY ARE NOT TRANS.
Vice versa.
To say otherwise is either transphobic or gender-conformist.

If Hiura has suddenly been trans I’d have dropped this series after leaving a scathing critique of the author’s decision. He’s not written perfectly, because thst’s impossible. But he’s not written gender-ambiguous after the first volume. That actually makes sense considering he’s still processing his own situation.

A YouTuber I watch sometimes is a man who wears makeup, paints his nails, dyes his hair colourfully, has a full beard and is cishet. If people ask him if he’s gay he says “no”, if they ask him why he does the makeup etc, he says “because I like it”. Lucas of Fact Fiend. If people started saying he must be trans behind his back, that’s ducked up. I’m sure a few people are doing that. FEH

EVERYONE CHILL. HEAD CANON IS FINE. OFFICIAL CANON IS OFFICIAL.


Smol, please take the time to read this. It’s verbose, because I want to be very clear.:

Just pull back the aggression and overcome the hostility, and people are more likely to listen to you. If they still don’t listen, just ignore them.

I get the impression that your hostility towards trans people is due to fighting with the futhest-left of the “queer community“ (in quotes because it’s so wild online that I don’t engage with it. Incomprehensible). The “just came out” and, well, tumblr crowd are not the majority.

It reminds me of how angry I was at Christians as a whole because I grew up in a viciously right-wing area wrt to many issues, and it was all very clearly and publicly motivated by religion.
But it’s not that Christianity is terrible, it’s that the worst Christians are REALLY LOUD.

I’m done being angry. It’s not productive, healthy and against my religion.
I’m fairly indignant about the de facto hostility towards trans people, though.

I don’t remember if it was you or someone else that I was speaking to in the past, but I don’t have an issue with people head-canoning Bridget as a boy. I just have a problem with people saying official canon should be disregarded.
So just let people have their head-canon. It’s whatever. Just say “that’s your head canon, and not what I’m talking about.”

Head canon, fan theories, and fan fiction are part of media interpretation, and have been for thousands of years. I have some that old on my shelf. In Aramaic and Mishnaic Hebrew. It doesn’t all agree with itself, but it’s all taken seriously in Judaism. One Jew, two opinions, as they say. I say “show up to the shiur with two opinions, and leave it with 5.”

So just let people chatter about their own views, and point out the difference between head canon, fan theory, and intent.

You will be more likely to be listened to, and discover that not all of us are trying to see transness everywhere.

Hell, that’s often part of the way people process coming out. “I love being trans. It’s awesome. Trans people are everywhere, so why not here?”
People grow out of that, a lot of the time. Become more levelheaded, and reasonable. …or stay in an echo chamber, argue about whether or not eating at a restaurant is ableist (people do that) and aren’t worth talking to.

 

[Thrembs]

"I want... to be a girl." Luka from Steins;Gate. The team then proceeds to do frankly idiotic timeline change shennanigans to make it so she is born biologically female.
"The me right now is living his best life. I used to despise my body, but now I am happy that I was born with it... But still, that doesn't actually make me a girl..." Hiura from this very chapter. He then proceeds to spend 18 and counting chapters being confidently himself, a crossdressing guy.
Stop providing smolbaka with ammunition by being so clearly wrong.

Yeah, that. One can be critical of writing (which you seem to be of steins;gate) without saying it isn’t true.

The novel A Separate Peace is either some weird, gay tragedy, or shitty writing.
The author says it’s not gay. As such, it’s total shit.

 

[Thrembs]

Take Makoto from Senpai Wa Otokonoko as an example. Liked girly things but was on the fence of living as a girl or "acting like a man" more by his parents.

Peace offering:

“Crossplay love, otaku and punk” is a fun, fairly queer, gender-shenanigans-heavy manga thst’s very fun.
I don’t think there are any trans characters, but who know what down the line? The story seems to be coming to a head, though, so it’s unlikely for anyone new of note to be added. Another side-couple was just introduce. It’s get crowded. It’s already super convoluted, intentionally and hilariously.

That series rules.

Didn’t know if you were aware of it, but there you go.

(I’m sure people are head-canoning one of the main characters as trans. At the thought, I facepalm. Lotta funpowder in that head cannon. Wanting to pass while in-character is a valid way to be. There are things one shouldn’t do while pretending to be someone/something else, but that’s true regardless of what someone is playing.)

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

Well, I’ll check that latter one out.

None of these are perfect, but I do think Iori is a more well-written character than Hiura in many ways. something that can’t really be translated is that at no point does he stop speaking in a masculine manner. Almost zero attempt at passing, just being cute. (Well, the beach situatio was understandably awkward. I think that makes sense, to an extent). Hiura has a more complex backstory, though.

I think the issue here is that this series was originally just some “lol, crossdressing for the gaeye“ on pixiv/Twitter, but had to wrangle itself into something better over time without totally retconning character.

I think he author did OK, considering the publisher wouldn’t allow anything that would drop readership. Thus the corrections being subtle and done to he background, not foreground of their personalities.

I don’t remember the translated title but 女装してオフ会に参加してみた is great, too. That author listened to feedback from trans readers about one or two issues with how a trans character was handled (her net handle was so cringe before publicatio), and when she got a story arc I cried multiple times.
So good, because it wasn’t just another coming out/coming to terms story.
All the characters who cross-dress in that have different motivations.

Another example of a series starting “oof” and getting amazing is 合コンに行ったら女がいなかった話. other direction of cross-dressing. First few chapters have some not-so-heinous surface-level homophobia, but it fades out pretty quick. I saw some clips of the drama and it was cast terribly, and structured idiotically. There’s an anime incoming.
I ADORE that series. Hagi and Kouhaku… ☺️
Fuji KILLS me 🤣


In summary, just because something could be better, doesn’t make it terrible.

This ain’t “Tr** Heroine”.

I got into this series, because I wanted to read a cute BOYS LOVE where one of the guys is a crossdresser. If I wanted a good trans main character, I'd look for webtoons and webcomics. Because that's not gonna be found in Japanese media.

Something like the webcomic "Rain" or the webtoon "The Prettiest Platypus" just isn't gonna come out of Japan.

Ironically, the original premise is also done better in at least one webtoon (Boy Girlfriend), simply because they're not afraid to call a character gay.

 

[Thrembs]

I got into this series, because I wanted to read a cute BOYS LOVE where one of the guys is a crossdresser. If I wanted a good trans main character, I'd look for webtoons and webcomics. Because that's not gonna be found in Japanese media.

Something like the webcomic "Rain" or the webtoon "The Prettiest Platypus" just isn't gonna come out of Japan.

Ironically, the original premise is also done better in at least one webtoon (Boy Girlfriend), simply because they're not afraid to call a character gay.

There are a few autobiographical manga with trans main characters. They’re good, but since I lived that story in the USA and lived in Japan a couple months, they’re really boring.

“Love me for what I am” is OK, but it’s really, really, “informative” in tone. It comes off as a personified list of AMAB lgbt stuff and one cis lesbian.
Written by a cishet guy who was trying REALLY REALLY HARD to be constantly learning stuff.

Some side characters are cool in some things.

Didn’t know webtoons had good stuff. Not that I’m especially interested, unless there’s a twist, or it’s not the focus.

We don’t if “gay” will come up or not, yet. If it gets to the end and it’s not addressed I’ll say “welp. This again.”

I also don’t think “gay” etc needs to be said, really. Normalising is making something normal. No need to say anything other than “this is my [partner]” or “yes/no”. Rarely would one need to bring up orientation.
I mean, one manga it read has a character come out by having a girl he likes, but when talking about a guy that confessed to him (in “girl” mode. Playing a character, passing) he commented on how good looking he is a few times, but “I have a girl I like” and when confronted directly that he wasn’t grossed out, he says “Huh? Well, everyone has their own preferences?” like “Why did you assume that would be a problem?”
He’s not straight, and not gay. Doesn’t really matter what the specifics are, and it’s no surprise to us, since the manga is tagged “happy ending.”
I don’t care who knows my gender situation or orientation, so I don’t fly any flags. It doesn’t MATTER.


Hell, I prefer coding to explaining things in detail without real context.

The creator of Celeste was bullied out of the closet by people demanding “is this canon, or not! We need an official statement! Tell us if and how and when and why!” Media outlets, Twitter from all sides…

No one can just look at media and interpret it, anymore. “I need a detailed explanation in wiki format.”

Hell, Bridget says “I’m a girl” and people demanded a press release… and people STILL weren’t happy!


PET PEEVE.

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

There are a few autobiographical manga with trans main characters. They’re good, but since I lived that story in the USA and lived in Japan a couple months, they’re really boring.

“Love me for what I am” is OK, but it’s really, really, “informative” in tone. It comes off as a personified list of AMAB lgbt stuff and one cis lesbian.
Written by a cishet guy who was trying REALLY REALLY HARD to be constantly learning stuff.

Some side characters are cool in some things.

Didn’t know webtoons had good stuff. Not that I’m especially interested, unless there’s a twist, or it’s not the focus.

We don’t if “gay” will come up or not, yet. If it gets to the end and it’s not addressed I’ll say “welp. This again.”

I also don’t think “gay” etc needs to be said, really. Normalising is making something normal. No need to say anything other than “this is my [partner]” or “yes/no”. Rarely would one need to bring up orientation.
I mean, one manga it read has a character come out by having a girl he likes, but when talking about a guy that confessed to him (in “girl” mode. Playing a character, passing) he commented on how good looking he is a few times, but “I have a girl I like” and when confronted directly that he wasn’t grossed out, he says “Huh? Well, everyone has their own preferences?” like “Why did you assume that would be a problem?”
He’s not straight, and not gay. Doesn’t really matter what the specifics are, and it’s no surprise to us, since the manga is tagged “happy ending.”
I don’t care who knows my gender situation or orientation, so I don’t fly any flags. It doesn’t MATTER.


Hell, I prefer coding to explaining things in detail without real context.

The creator of Celeste was bullied out of the closet by people demanding “is this canon, or not! We need an official statement! Tell us if and how and when and why!” Media outlets, Twitter from all sides…

No one can just look at media and interpret it, anymore. “I need a detailed explanation in wiki format.”

Hell, Bridget says “I’m a girl” and people demanded a press release… and people STILL weren’t happy!


PET PEEVE.

I think the explicit terms are important, because usually the reason manga don't do that is to avoid angering homophobic weaboos who don't like to be reminded that gay people exist in real life.

It not needing to be said would be nice, but it's only possible once gay people are actually treated as and seen as equals in real life.

The thing about the Celeste creator I don't remember, mainly because I hate that game for other reasons. I only remember some people being upset about a 15 pixel flag at the end of the game, and the creator only coming to terms and coming out a while later. But the soundtrack was already made by an out trans woman, so I don't think many people on the progressive side questioned it.

 

[Thrembs]

I think the explicit terms are important, because usually the reason manga don't do that is to avoid angering homophobic weaboos who don't like to be reminded that gay people exist in real life.

I don’t think that’s really a big problem, anymore.
and this is what I’m talking about. “We need it made explicit, so homophobic people can’t say it isn’t there” doesn‘t matter, because they’ll be upset regardless.
If the story doesn’t imply that the characters somehow invented gayness (older BL is full of that) or that gayness is the norm (girl’s school yuri) then I don’t get the problem.
Sasaki and Miyano has multiple coming-out moments, and they don’t use “gay”. and it’s fine.
A couple early instances of “homo” (two. Early on.) The author put more and more effort into realism and accuracy over time. Said so. To me. Humblebraaaag. But yeah. Varying levels of ”not terrible“ outcomes. From “you should have him over for dinner” to “hey. are you two, dating? Seriously? shit, dude… What if I end up thinking about it!? Fuck. Well, whatever.” And other real life stuff.

It not needing to be said would be nice, but it's only possible once gay people are actually treated as and seen as equals in real life.

I don’t see how saying a specific, othering, word will make that happen.
The preponderance of terminology and flags that keep being produced is just more and more divisions. Matryoshka dolls of othering.
So many that they communicate nothing to people outside of the groups themselves.

I avoid wearing stripes and often wear black and earth tones, despite liking colourful clothes, because I don’t want people to think I’m trying to low-key signal something.
Just existing as a person I’ve had people, say, excitedly ask me if I got my name from X movie when I’m signing up for a rewards card at a checkout counter. Gee, thanks for saying “I clocked you” to anyone in earshot. I didn’t know what their gender was, and didn’t care, because I was BUYING A JACKET, NOT AT SOME KIND OF MEET-UP.

The thing about the Celeste creator I don't remember, mainly because I hate that game for other reasons. I only remember some people being upset about a 15 pixel flag at the end of the game, and the creator only coming to terms and coming out a while later. But the soundtrack was already made by an out trans woman, so I don't think many people on the progressive side questioned it.

https://laurakbuzz.com/2019/12/10/c...-trans-protagonist-isnt-great-representation/
As a relatively high-profile example of bullying.
https://maddythorson.medium.com/is-madeline-canonically-trans-4277ece02e40
As an explicit statement that people were angy and putting pressure on them to “make it canon”, despite it being faaaaching obvious.

The far left has always existed to destroy the old ways and making a big mess of new ideas regardless of if any of that is good or not. Progress needs the way cleared, but the next step is putting the good stuff back, new or old. The people that put it back are the ones that can recognise what’s useful and what isn’t.

In Japan, 80+% of people under 40 are in favor of gay marriage being legal.
Most manga is not written with an overseas audience in mind.

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

Sasaki and Miyano has multiple coming-out moments, and they don’t use “gay”. and it’s fine.

Sasaki and Miyano is also Yaoi. While it starts as trying to stay away from the bad shit, it eventually just turns full Yaoi and it's target audience has been fujos since it started.

Though, maybe I'm being harsh because of the webtoon "Plain Boy & Prince", by amanduur, which actually does a good job with the "popular guy who thought he was straight falls for a nerdy guy who's into bl". It even has him talk about the differences between BL and Yaoi and he's not a dumbass who thinks he's straight when he's only into gay romance.

I avoid wearing stripes and often wear black and earth tones, despite liking colourful clothes, because I don’t want people to think I’m trying to low-key signal something.

So you go out of your way to avoid being perceived as what you are?

In Japan, 80+% of people under 40 are in favor of gay marriage being legal.
Most manga is not written with an overseas audience in mind.

Source?

 

[Thrembs]

Sasaki and Miyano is also Yaoi. While it starts as trying to stay away from the bad shit, it eventually just turns full Yaoi

Wtf? It get’s BETTER over time.
It addresses homophobia, different reactions to people coming out, they take time to figure out how open they each want to be. They don’t show a single sex scene.
They make out, and something is HEAVILY implied to have happened, and “what the hell were we thinking?!” is a later reaction. And guess what? Teenagers do dumb, gross things because hormones and teenagers have bad judgement and impulse control. I don’t like that scene. I think it’s lame and basic, but it’s the only thing like that.
YAOI is porn DJs with no plot.
It has none of those factors.
What did you read? Because it ain’t Sasamya.

I literally, truly, actually had an exchange with the creator about how she had put realism in (I was thanking her), and she was glad to have succeeded. She tried her best, with anxiety about succeeding. It ain’t perfect, but it GOT BETTER, not worse.

it's target audience has been fujos since it started.

…yeah, that’s exactly who the target audience was. It’s BL.
It’s also popular with men, based on pixiv rankings.

Though, maybe I'm being harsh because of the webtoon "Plain Boy & Prince", by amanduur, which actually does a good job with the "popular guy who thought he was straight falls for a nerdy guy who's into bl". It even has him talk about the differences between BL and Yaoi and he's not a dumbass who thinks he's straight when he's only into gay romance.

Amanduur also wrote the comic “Obnoxious Hero-kun” which devolves into meaningless, questionable (age) porn (I bailed after a while, because yeah), and is still doing Daimao, which is both hilarious and baaaaasic BL.

Yeah, you’re being harsh, just because the word “gay” isn’t used.
Know why? THEY ARE NOT GAY.
Sasaki may have never fallen for anyone before, but he didn’t suddenly find men in general attractive. He just fell in love. Sounds like some form of Demi if you look at it in real life terms, but we don’t know if he could be attracted to women or not. I think that wasn’t handled the best. Had some “you’re the exception” vibes, but it is established that Sasaki was a half-rebellious sad boy who didn’t have many close friends, let alone any crushes, before.
Miyano had a crush on a girl in the past. Was it really love? Who knows? It’s not relevant to the story, and why examine it if you’re in a happy relationship that you want to last the rest of your life? (Silly Myaa-chan, waiting until he was sure they’d never break up before saying “I like you”. Hilariously frustrating)

Things don’t need to be actively educational to be good representation.

Not everything needs to be Netflix or FukaBoku. Sense8 was gr8, I liked FukaBoku well enough, but it was an extended After School Special. Could have been a social studies assignment.

So you go out of your way to avoid being perceived as what you are?

No, I go out of my way to not signal something incorrect. I’ve incidentally worn blue and peach (not even pink. I dislike wearing pink clothes. Olive skin) and had people wearing pride flair look me up and down, wave and smile.

Also, you have insinuated that being in the closet/stealth is bad. I see that a lot among young, chronically-online and/or very vocally queer people.
They treat being queer like a process. Like you are working towards being out and open and loud and active in the community or whatever.
People get thrown out of their homes for coming out, so it’s often better to wait until you’re safe first.

If someone just plain wants to be in the closet, that’s their choice. If they’re being forced there, that’s sad, but if they can’t leave that situation and it would be unsafe to come out, it is a bad idea to do it.
I once met a much older person who had decided long ago that they were never going to transition, but were happy for me (we had met a few times over the last 20+ years).
That’s their choice. They didn’t seem like a tortured soul.

The word “lesbian” is contentious, because people don’t accept that homosexuality is by nature exclusive.
Using a normal 🏳️‍🌈 is controversial, because there’s a flag that says “trans and brown people are part of the community” WHICH WE ALREADY WERE.
It’s othering, patronising, and thus offensive.
The virtue signal triangle is never being flown by me.
Know what bumper stickers I have? A Fokofpolisiekar sticker and a ✡️ magnet.
Things I want people to know.
Being openly Jewish isn’t controversial in the Jewish world, and Fokofpolisiekar RULE so I want people to be curious and maybe check them out.

Source?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recog...ns_in_Japan#Political_support_and_legislation
That took one minute and thirty seconds to find. You could have done that, easily. Why did you want this to be untrue, anyway?

Why are you so hostile?

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

Wtf? It get’s BETTER over time.
It addresses homophobia, different reactions to people coming out, they take time to figure out how open they each want to be. They don’t show a single sex scene.
They make out, and something is HEAVILY implied to have happened, and “what the hell were we thinking?!” is a later reaction. And guess what? Teenagers do dumb, gross things because hormones and teenagers have bad judgement and impulse control. I don’t like that scene. I think it’s lame and basic, but it’s the only thing like that.
YAOI is porn DJs with no plot.
It has none of those factors.
What did you read? Because it ain’t Sasamya.

I remember dropping it when it turned into a multi chapter arc about who's a top and who's a bottom.

…yeah, that’s exactly who the target audience was. It’s BL.
It’s also popular with men, based on pixiv rankings.

Fujos like Yaoi, not BL.

Amanduur also wrote the comic “Obnoxious Hero-kun” which devolves into meaningless, questionable (age) porn (I bailed after a while, because yeah), and is still doing Daimao, which is both hilarious and baaaaasic BL.

Yeah, "obnoxious hero-kun" sucks, but the author knows that and even includes a warning at the beginning that, while it tries to satirize and call out shitty Yaoi tropes, it mostly fails and ends up just recreating them. And I have never looked at Daimao, because its genericness is blatantly apparent.

Yeah, you’re being harsh, just because the word “gay” isn’t used.
Know why? THEY ARE NOT GAY.
Sasaki may have never fallen for anyone before, but he didn’t suddenly find men in general attractive. He just fell in love. Sounds like some form of Demi if you look at it in real life terms, but we don’t know if he could be attracted to women or not. I think that wasn’t handled the best. Had some “you’re the exception” vibes, but it is established that Sasaki was a half-rebellious sad boy who didn’t have many close friends, let alone any crushes, before.
Miyano had a crush on a girl in the past. Was it really love? Who knows? It’s not relevant to the story, and why examine it if you’re in a happy relationship that you want to last the rest of your life? (Silly Myaa-chan, waiting until he was sure they’d never break up before saying “I like you”. Hilariously frustrating)

Sasaki to Miyano very much portrays it as an-exception-gay-people-aren't-real.

Things don’t need to be actively educational to be good representation.

This made me realize I never actually mentioned the bl webtoons I think are actually great. I only mentioned ones that are examples of something a manga fails to do but slightly better. "Encore!" Is like an actually good version of Hearstopper, "Daybreak" is both fun and visually amazing, "Friki Romance" is fanfiction by the author couple fantasizing how it would have been had they met in college, "R. U. Screwed" is both amazingly paced and by far the most realistic, all the characters just act like normal people, and "Revelation of Eros" is autobiographical in nature incredibly in-depth in how it deals with serious topics.

Not everything needs to be Netflix or FukaBoku. Sense8 was gr8, I liked FukaBoku well enough, but it was an extended After School Special. Could have been a social studies assignment.

I could talk about all the issues I have with FukaBoku for a while, but the part where the adult lesbian hits on Kotone is a good place to remember it's still anime.

No, I go out of my way to not signal something incorrect. I’ve incidentally worn blue and peach (not even pink. I dislike wearing pink clothes. Olive skin) and had people wearing pride flair look me up and down, wave and smile.
The word “lesbian” is contentious, because people don’t accept that homosexuality is by nature exclusive.

It's contentious, because lesbians have a bad history of TERFdom, they're the reason why TERFs are even a thing (Read up on Beth Elliot at the West Coast Lesbian Conference).

Using a normal 🏳️‍🌈 is controversial, because there’s a flag that says “trans and brown people are part of the community” WHICH WE ALREADY WERE.
It’s othering, patronising, and thus offensive.
The virtue signal triangle is never being flown by me.

The chevron was added both to have a flag distinct from the rainbow, which was still though of as just representing gay men, and to remind white lgb people that trans people and non-white people are also a part of LGBT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recog...ns_in_Japan#Political_support_and_legislation
That took one minute and thirty seconds to find. You could have done that, easily. Why did you want this to be untrue, anyway?

I had already read that, but didn't remember the statiatic. I kind of expected a link to something other than Wikipedia. But the statistic you claimed isn't correct anyway, as the most recent statistic on the Wikipedia article is still 71% in favour, with over 85% under 30.

Why are you so hostile?

I'm not. And I apologize if I came across as such. I'm kinda shit at correctly conveying tone.

 

[Thrembs]

Fujos like Yaoi, not BL.

you don’t even know what these words mean, and I cannot be arsed. You wouldn’t listen, anyway.
Your heels are dug in pretty deep on absolutely everything you think.

Sasaki to Miyano very much portrays it as an-exception-gay-people-aren't-real.

you clearly dropped it early, or are truly out of touch.

”there’s a questionable conversation at one point, so all the better stuff and improvement doesn’t matter”.
sure, that’s how anything works.

it’s also a crap scanlation, and loses some nuance. A very blunt, awkward, but accurate translation
“do you generally find men attractive?”
“I don’t think so.“

that’s not even “No”.

It has two openly-gay side characters that are used to make it clear that gay people DO exist!

It directly addresses heteronormativity and the changing attitudes in society (crap scanlation failed there. Made it about the sister herself, not society as a whole).

This made me realize I never actually mentioned the bl webtoons I think are actually…

i don’t care.
you have terrible taste.

I could talk about all the issues I have with FukaBoku for a while, but the part where the adult lesbian hits on Kotone is a good place to remember it's still anime.

huh? Whatever. I don’t give a shit.

It's contentious, because lesbians have a bad history of TERFdom, they're the reason why TERFs are even a thing (Read up on Beth Elliot at the West Coast Lesbian Conference).

wtfeven?!
fuck off!
”a person said a thing, so homosexual women are to blame for transphobic rhetoric”.
This I like blaming black people for Louis Farrakhan’s antisemitism.

The chevron was added both to have a flag distinct from the rainbow, which was still though of as just representing gay men, and to remind white lgb people that trans people and non-white people are also a part of LGBT.

shut up. We don’t need to turn everyone and everything into a fight instead of actually fighting.

Don’t graffiti “not racist or transphobic!” on the flag and say it’s anything but virtue signalling.

gay men have a flag.
But everything does, now. If the sun fades one a little, it becomes another. Am I gonna throw away clothes after three washes? No, I’m not gonna buy pride swag to begin with.

I had already read that, but didn't remember the statiatic. I kind of expected a link to something other than Wikipedia. But the statistic you claimed isn't correct anyway, as the most recent statistic on the Wikipedia article is still 71% in favour, with over 85% under 30.

split a curly one next time.
You’re infuriating.

I'm not. And I apologize if I came across as such. I'm kinda shit at correctly conveying tone.

You’re shit at a lot of things.

You have annoyed me more than openly-transphobic and/or homophobic people.
You’re not ignorant or misinformed and thus afraid of something that doesn’t exist. You’re just an arsehole.
Get off tumblr, touch grass, and go fuck yourself.

onto the ignore list you go.

 

[Thrembs]

"I want... to be a girl." Luka from Steins;Gate. The team then proceeds to do frankly idiotic timeline change shennanigans to make it so she is born biologically female.
"The me right now is living his best life. I used to despise my body, but now I am happy that I was born with it... But still, that doesn't actually make me a girl..." Hiura from this very chapter. He then proceeds to spend 18 and counting chapters being confidently himself, a crossdressing guy.
Stop providing smolbaka with ammunition by being so clearly wrong.

Look at the other things this person has said.

Wowsers.

You can disagree with my bitter, old self, but at least I’m on earth.

Edit much later:
I think I may have done a good by exposing that that Violent Jay Jay person doesn’t know anything about anything, and doesn’t represent the views of anyone with a functioning mind.

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

Onto the ignore list you go.

Haha, the weaboo ran away after being confronted by a person that lives in reality instead of the internet.