Kuitsume Youhei no Gensou Kitan - Vol. 5 Ch. 27 - From Exploration to Reflection

[Grimm030]

Was he charged for having said opinion? No? Then he was entitled to it. Other people are entitled to theirs as well, as well as acting on them.

Sure, don't like it don't read it. Only how are you supposed to find out whether you like it? Didn't think that through, did you? That's besides the point, really. The thing with free-speech warriors is that when they spout jingoistic crap it's "speaking one's mind", but when other people give them back in kind, it's "attacking" and "silencing". Get a fucking grip, man. Make up your mind whether you want to speak your piece for all to hear and be known for it, or not.

I kinda just skimmed after this point, since the vitriol between the lines came through loud and clear. You are right though speech does have consequences and you shouldn't need reminding that harassment can easily become a crime but is it worth suing random people online as an author? Probably not, unless you have boatloads of money to spare, the publisher certainly wasn't going to be sued by those few who were upset online. What the guy said and did wasn't worth such fuss, especially compared to some of the objectively worse things allowed out there by the same studios or publishers. God forbid these poor virtue signalling souls step a foot into Comiket, they would have an aneurysm trying to shut the place down. No one should be expecting tasteless neutral "professionalism" in arts, they aren't writing or drawing for textbooks, so the only weak-minded ones present in this were those who were dog-piling and demanding removal over one random guy's loose opinion. As if his lone opinion was somehow going to kick off another Nanjing Massacre or something, if anyone needs to "get a grip" it is them, idk maybe find a hobby that won't potentially scar their fragile mindspace.

 

[finalm]

I kinda just skimmed after this point, since the vitriol between the lines came through loud and clear. You are right though speech does have consequences and you shouldn't need reminding that harassment can easily become a crime but is it worth suing random people online as an author? Probably not, unless you have boatloads of money to spare, the publisher certainly wasn't going to be sued by those few who were upset online. What the guy said and did wasn't worth such fuss, especially compared to some of the objectively worse things allowed out there by the same studios or publishers. God forbid these poor virtue signalling souls step a foot into Comiket, they would have an aneurysm trying to shut the place down. No one should be expecting tasteless neutral "professionalism" in arts, they aren't writing or drawing for textbooks, so the only weak-minded ones present in this were those who were dog-piling and demanding removal over one random guy's loose opinion. As if his lone opinion was somehow going to kick off another Nanjing Massacre or something, if anyone needs to "get a grip" it is them, idk maybe find a hobby that won't potentially scar their fragile mindspace.

Vitriol, eh? So as I said, free speech is when an opinion you don't mind is spoken. Otherwise it's vitriol, attacking, silencing etc. The fascists of the current US administration say exactly the same thing, free speech for me, not for thee. They are the anwser to your "what's the harm?" question. Also, you really have no shame to talk about a "fragile mindspace", while defending a poor little whiner who complains online about how it's so unfair that his own idiocy has to have negative consequences. As I pointed out before, one can hardly ask for a better example of a snowflake.

...you shouldn't need reminding that harassment can easily become a crime but is it worth suing random people online as an author? Probably not, unless you have boatloads of money to spare...

You invoke harrasment in one breath, then admit there's no point in suing in the other (so there's obviously no case). So in essence, there are opinions you'd like to silence, but don't have legal ground and were supposed to feel sorry because of that?

What the guy said and did wasn't worth such fuss, especially compared to some of the objectively worse things allowed out there by the same studios or publishers

Like what? Come on, let's have some details and concrete examples. You're not just fuming and throwing around whataboutisms, right?

No one should be expecting tasteless neutral "professionalism" in arts, they aren't writing or drawing for textbooks, so the only weak-minded ones present in this were those who were dog-piling and demanding removal over one random guy's loose opinion

How do jingoistic talking points relate to the arts in your opinion? Are you saying it's his way of playing the "eccentric artist" role? More power to him then, provided he's man enough to eat the backlash, his predecessors certainly had been. What's this, he's too weak-minded for that? Because there's too many opinions that he and his views suck and should disappear from public spaces? Funny how that always turns out to be the case.

 

[vincent-]

For those who don't know, you can read about the controversy on the mangadex autor's page:

I hate cancel culture so much. As long as he didn't rape or murder someone I really don't care what people say. Everyone is already racists I'm extra because I really don't care for strangers I care for family and friends if you're not in that circle I will ignore you dying on the street.

 

[Grimm030]

Vitriol, eh? So as I said, free speech is when an opinion you don't mind is spoken. Otherwise it's vitriol, attacking, silencing etc. The fascists of the current US administration say exactly the same thing, free speech for me, not for thee. They are the anwser to your "what's the harm?" question. Also, you really have no shame to talk about a "fragile mindspace", while defending a poor little whiner who complains online about how it's so unfair that his own idiocy has to have negative consequences. As I pointed out before, one can hardly ask for a better example of a snowflake.


You invoke harrasment in one breath, then admit there's no point in suing in the other (so there's obviously no case). So in essence, there are opinions you'd like to silence, but don't have legal ground and were supposed to feel sorry because of that?


Like what? Come on, let's have some details and concrete examples. You're not just fuming and throwing around whataboutisms, right?


How do jingoistic talking points relate to the arts in your opinion? Are you saying it's his way of playing the "eccentric artist" role? More power to him then, provided he's man enough to eat the backlash, his predecessors certainly had been. What's this, he's too weak-minded for that? Because there's too many opinions that he and his views suck and should disappear from public spaces? Funny how that always turns out to be the case.

Not sure why you're bringing U.S. politics into this when it's completely unrelated, you brought up "free speech" specifically and Japan doesn't really even have that in the first place. You're seething into the void here over free speech absolutists, when I'm not one of them, all I said is criticism has limits before it becomes harassment and that's true in Japan as well case-by-case. As far as I know the author has not complained about his soft-deplatforming, as you yourself stated he "doubled-down" before eventually capitulating to the peanut gallery, pretty admirable by Japan standards IMO. I suppose he did the sensible thing for self-preservation and gave them some little "win" in the form of an off-hand apology, likely he did that so he could continue this one remaining work. BTW did you just learn the word "jingoistic" recently? It's completely out of place in this context, whether that be in our conversation, the situation at hand or the arts in-general. I'm saying the arts are generally an overlooked avenue of expression even when controversial or outright antagonistic, a lot of things get a pass in manga and LNs/WNs in-particular. I initially began this conversation simply musing that critics don't value the ability to express oneself when they use it remove others from society for their opinions, not even allowing that opinion in a fictional setting. Regading examples, you can write or draw about extreme violence, the horrors of real life wars, sickening rapes or whatever but not Nanjing specifically? Heck, Tanya the evil is basically a recreation of an increasingly sadistic Nazi-esque regime that slaughtered hundreds of thousands with magic but that gets multiple anime seasons and no real complaints? Redo of a healer is basically just revenge rape and violence through magic, gets multiple seasons? Like I said before, the author's comments were OBJECTIVELY TAME by the standards set by the industry as a whole, the critics should probably find safer hobbies for their own peace of mind.

 

[finalm]

Not sure why you're bringing U.S. politics into this when it's completely unrelated, you brought up "free speech" specifically and Japan doesn't really even have that in the first place.

Funny, the same kind of "politics" (fascism does not get to call itself that) claims that the UK has no freedom of speech, even though it's guaranteed in the same kind of constitution as Japan's. You're parroting the same kind of idiocy and say both it and you are unrelated?

You're seething into the void here over free speech absolutists, when I'm not one of them, all I said is criticism has limits before it becomes harassment and that's true in Japan as well case-by-case.

And yet you cannot claim harrasment. You just threw that out instictively hoping it'll shut the issue up. Or are you seriously saying that was the case and for some reason no one sued?

As far as I know the author has not complained about his soft-deplatforming, as you yourself stated he "doubled-down" before eventually capitulating to the peanut gallery, pretty admirable by Japan standards IMO. I suppose he did the sensible thing for self-preservation and gave them some little "win" in the form of an off-hand apology, likely he did that so he could continue this one remaining work.

Oh, very admirable. In essece you applaud being a unapologetic asshole and only paying lip service when the heat gets too much for the little snowflake to handle. How brave of both of you... This puts everything you said here in an interesting light.

BTW did you just learn the word "jingoistic" recently? It's completely out of place in this context, whether that be in our conversation, the situation at hand or the arts in-general.

And yet you can't elaborate why. The fascists also insist the term does not fit them. That's of course all they have to say on the matter. Assuming you're not just following the same playbook, maybe you should learn the meaning of the words too.

I'm saying the arts are generally an overlooked avenue of expression even when controversial or outright antagonistic, a lot of things get a pass in manga and LNs/WNs in-particular. I initially began this conversation simply musing that critics don't value the ability to express oneself when they use it remove others from society for their opinions, not even allowing that opinion in a fictional setting.

He wasn't talking about a fictional setting when arguing his piece, don't try to spin this as some sort of Spanish Inquisition thing. As for his works, if anything, they were criticized for having ommited the topic (while still using characters and themes related to it), not shown it from a different perspective. That is fair, Japan has always had a denialist approach to their unsavory past and that was precisely what this guy doubled down on.

Regading examples, you can write or draw about extreme violence, the horrors of real life wars, sickening rapes or whatever but not Nanjing specifically? Heck, Tanya the evil is basically a recreation of an increasingly sadistic Nazi-esque regime that slaughtered hundreds of thousands with magic but that gets multiple anime seasons and no real complaints? Redo of a healer is basically just revenge rape and violence through magic, gets multiple seasons? Like I said before, the author's comments were OBJECTIVELY TAME by the standards set by the industry as a whole, the critics should probably find safer hobbies for their own peace of mind.

Maybe because the authors of those works did not try to claim it's real-world counterparts did nothing wrong? Just a thought... By the way, you're really going to push this narrative? That even though the industry shies away from basically nothing, for some reason one theme and one author is off limits to both them and the audience? I'm sorry, but that's so ridiculous, even I can't help but chuckle. You've done a better job of mocking that here than I ever could...

 

[Grimm030]

Funny, the same kind of "politics" (fascism does not get to call itself that) claims that the UK has no freedom of speech, even though it's guaranteed in the same kind of constitution as Japan's. You're parroting the same kind of idiocy and say both it and you are unrelated?


And yet you cannot claim harrasment. You just threw that out instictively hoping it'll shut the issue up. Or are you seriously saying that was the case and for some reason no one sued?


Oh, very admirable. In essece you applaud being a unapologetic asshole and only paying lip service when the heat gets too much for the little snowflake to handle. How brave of both of you... This puts everything you said here in an interesting light.


And yet you can't elaborate why. The fascists also insist the term does not fit them. That's of course all they have to say on the matter. Assuming you're not just following the same playbook, maybe you should learn the meaning of the words too.


He wasn't talking about a fictional setting when arguing his piece, don't try to spin this as some sort of Spanish Inquisition thing. As for his works, if anything, they were criticized for having ommited the topic (while still using characters and themes related to it), not shown it from a different perspective. That is fair, Japan has always had a denialist approach to their unsavory past and that was precisely what this guy doubled down on.


Maybe because the authors of those works did not try to claim it's real-world counterparts did nothing wrong? Just a thought... By the way, you're really going to push this narrative? That even though the industry shies away from basically nothing, for some reason one theme and one author is off limits to both them and the audience? I'm sorry, but that's so ridiculous, even I can't help but chuckle. You've done a better job of mocking that here than I ever could...

Can you be any more pedantic and self-righteously narcissistic? I brought up harassment for the sole fact that people keep drudging up this author's insignificant black mark years later, it had nothing to do with you nor was it meant to end the conversation, you seem to have taken it as if you were one of those lambasting the guy on his twitter. If you were I don't really care one way or the other. I can respect the guy for at least attempting to stick to his beliefs in the face of a crowd, that's the extent of it and has nothing to do with the content of his beliefs. You can respect even your enemies in singular aspects of their character, however in your case you don't seem to see this author as a multi-faceted human being, you just see them as some enemy to be trounced utterly over some words. Far-leftist, I presume. I think this because that is typical behavior for them like throwing around "fascism" and going off on tangents, you're trying to circle back so your argument about politics will appear sound, all the while commanding that you're correct. This is a manipulative authoritarian mindset, you have no right to police someone else's beliefs that are harming no one, least of all in another country with different laws than your own. For the record I don't think his defense of Nanjing is a good thing, I never voiced support for it once here either, you likely assumed that all on your own. This will be my last post on the matter though, I'm not here to endlessly banter with an unhinged narcissist who wants an enemy and we're all here to read manga anyway, not to clog this forum with word walls getting off-topic. If you like it then read it, if not then you're welcome to sod off or keep whining about old news.

 

[finalm]

Can you be any more pedantic and self-righteously narcissistic? I brought up harassment for the sole fact that people keep drudging up this author's insignificant black mark years later, it had nothing to do with you nor was it meant to end the conversation, you seem to have taken it as if you were one of those lambasting the guy on his twitter.

Drudging up? As in, what I'm doing now by talking about it? Or are you suggesting people stalk him and make his life miserable just out of spite (and still he never gets the authorities involved)? This is what comes to mind by you insisting on using the word "harrasment", not merely people remembering that he was a douche. What, is this not an opinion qualified for sharing and speaking your mind?

If you were I don't really care one way or the other. I can respect the guy for at least attempting to stick to his beliefs in the face of a crowd, that's the extent of it and has nothing to do with the content of his beliefs. You can respect even your enemies in singular aspects of their character, however in your case you don't seem to see this author as a multi-faceted human being, you just see them as some enemy to be trounced utterly over some words.

We've already established that he didn't stick to his beliefs. He tried to dishonestly apologize (which you applaud for being dishonest) and when that failed, fucked off to sulk like all brave, outspoken artists. I can see this impresses you though. Personally I've seen more pathetic worms than him, but not that many. Nice job trying to garner sympathy though, I'm sure his "multi-faceted" personality is relevant here. People always forget that Hitler liked kids and dogs when discussing his ideology, after all. Won't someone think of the kids and dogs?

Far-leftist, I presume. I think this because that is typical behavior for them like throwing around "fascism" and going off on tangents, you're trying to circle back so your argument about politics will appear sound, all the while commanding that you're correct. This is a manipulative authoritarian mindset, you have no right to police someone else's beliefs that are harming no one, least of all in another country with different laws than your own.

So one needs to be far-left to call a duck a duck. I suppose I'm "overreacting" in your eyes. That is what people were told every time someone pointed out the uncanny similiarity of contemporary events to the late 30's. Now those voices are somewhat silent, since it's already past masks-off. Did you miss the memo by any chance?

Also, my "circling back" at least provides some tangible link to what I'm saying. You've already responded multiple times with what boils down to "you're wrong" without providing any elaboration and only trying to distract from it when pressed. In other words, do as I say, not as I do. I suppose only the far right has the rights to authoritarian mindsets and belief policing eh? Or are you going to claim that's not at all what they do?

For the record I don't think his defense of Nanjing is a good thing, I never voiced support for it once here either, you likely assumed that all on your own.

Of course you didn't - it's the kind of bravery and "standing by your ideals" one would expect from someone who considers the author's non-apology strategy to be the height of civil courage. Rather than that you prefered to downplay what he said as "insignificant", "tame" etc. and otherwise normalize it without taking a stand yourself. I get it, people might criticize, ah I mean HARASS you over it. That would be horrible...

This will be my last post on the matter though, I'm not here to endlessly banter with an unhinged narcissist who wants an enemy and we're all here to read manga anyway, not to clog this forum with word walls getting off-topic. If you like it then read it, if not then you're welcome to sod off or keep whining about old news.

Right, run away then. No shame in it, it's what the "principled" man you've been defending here did, after all. You could have spared everyone the "clogging" and "reading manga" excuses though - those work poorly after you've already egaged in a long conversation and only whip them out when it's time to tuck in your tail. But damn, are you similar to the guy in question. If it weren't for your command of English, I'd have been convinced...

 

[Grimm030]

Drudging up? As in, what I'm doing now by talking about it? Or are you suggesting people stalk him and make his life miserable just out of spite (and still he never gets the authorities involved)? This is what comes to mind by you insisting on using the word "harrasment", not merely people remembering that he was a douche. What, is this not an opinion qualified for sharing and speaking your mind?


We've already established that he didn't stick to his beliefs. He tried to dishonestly apologize (which you applaud for being dishonest) and when that failed, fucked off to sulk like all brave, outspoken artists. I can see this impresses you though. Personally I've seen more pathetic worms than him, but not that many. Nice job trying to garner sympathy though, I'm sure his "multi-faceted" personality is relevant here. People always forget that Hitler liked kids and dogs when discussing his ideology, after all. Won't someone think of the kids and dogs?


So one needs to be far-left to call a duck a duck. I suppose I'm "overreacting" in your eyes. That is what people were told every time someone pointed out the uncanny similiarity of contemporary events to the late 30's. Now those voices are somewhat silent, since it's already past masks-off. Did you miss the memo by any chance?

Also, my "circling back" at least provides some tangible link to what I'm saying. You've already responded multiple times with what boils down to "you're wrong" without providing any elaboration and only trying to distract from it when pressed. In other words, do as I say, not as I do. I suppose only the far right has the rights to authoritarian mindsets and belief policing eh? Or are you going to claim that's not at all what they do?


Of course you didn't - it's the kind of bravery and "standing by your ideals" one would expect from someone who considers the author's non-apology strategy to be the height of civil courage. Rather than that you prefered to downplay what he said as "insignificant", "tame" etc. and otherwise normalize it without taking a stand yourself. I get it, people might criticize, ah I mean HARASS you over it. That would be horrible...


Right, run away then. No shame in it, it's what the "principled" man you've been defending here did, after all. You could have spared everyone the "clogging" and "reading manga" excuses though - those work poorly after you've already egaged in a long conversation and only whip them out when it's time to tuck in your tail. But damn, are you similar to the guy in question. If it weren't for your command of English, I'd have been convinced...

Any unwanted and repeated advance can be reasoned as harassment but again, you're going in circles citing your own claims when those claims were incorrect from the start. Now you're back-tracking when YOU said the man "doubled-down" on his views, prior to giving his half-hearted apology. Those things mean he didn't change his mind, nor does he actually feel sorry for his comments, I assume this is part of why you're angry but you're not going to change that through debating an unrelated party (me). I didn't respect his apology which was the obligatory thing to do for business, I respected him for doubling-down and I could even extend that same respect to you if you weren't intellectually-dishonest. All of this is why I more or less called you a petty narcissist, I have no motivation to attempt reasoning with someone who cannot self-reflect, so we're done here. Good day, fool.

 

[finalm]

Any unwanted and repeated advance can be reasoned as harassment but again, you're going in circles citing your own claims when those claims were incorrect from the start.

And again, all you have to say is "you're wrong", only now adding "from the start". You were previously saying something about the weak-minded, yet these kinds of arguments are the weakest of them all. For shame, dude - if you know what that is, of course. As for the first sentence: according to that definition I could be said to be harrasing you, isn't that right? Hell, anyone raising a point you don't like repeatedly is harrasing you. Talk about delicate sensitivities. Especially after you so confidently told off all the critics for the very same thing. As I said, it's always the same with you people: rules for thee, none for me. How's that for circling back?

Now you're back-tracking when YOU said the man "doubled-down" on his views, prior to giving his half-hearted apology. Those things mean he didn't change his mind, nor does he actually feel sorry for his comments, I assume this is part of why you're angry but you're not going to change that through debating an unrelated party (me). I didn't respect his apology which was the obligatory thing to do for business, I respected him for doubling-down and I could even extend that same respect to you if you weren't intellectually-dishonest.

I never said he changed his mind. Publically withdrawing his words after changing his mind would be fine, it does not compromise one's character to admit to being wrong. However, since his beliefs didn't change and he was still willing to publically go back on them, that makes him a pathetic coward, a tool who bends the knee whenever things get too hot to handle. You too, since this is the kind of thing you admited to supporting. So much about everything you said about speaking your mind, clearly you'll sing whatever tune you're fed if one just leans on you a bit. Why would someone like that have the right to call anyone else dishonest, intellectually or otherwise? Besides the fact that once again, it's a statement without any justification, so consider it dissmissed out of hand.

All of this is why I more or less called you a petty narcissist, I have no motivation to attempt reasoning with someone who cannot self-reflect, so we're done here. Good day, fool.

You're calling me whatever comes to mind, without any rhyme or reason, so again, dismissed. It's pretty embarrasing to read as someone who worked in the mental health field, but a bit of a theme with guys like you. Really though, is this all? This is why turned around after annoucing that you're running away, only to spin 180 and run once again? Come on, man. That's beyond weak. You're actually making me see Mine in a better light due to this... He at least had the dignity to keep his head down after he turned tail.

 

[Grimm030]

It's pretty embarrasing to read as someone who worked in the mental health field, but a bit of a theme with guys like you. Really though, is this all? This is why turned around after annoucing that you're running away, only to spin 180 and run once again?

Pretending to be some head doctor in the 11th hour and trying to appeal to some shoehorned offline authority, isn't doing you any favors. I should have stated I wasn't going to take you seriously instead with lengthy replies, that's on me and sure I'll own it, I know full well I got baited to reply by you arguing in bad faith. Later.

 

[finalm]

Pretending to be some head doctor in the 11th hour and trying to appeal to some shoehorned offline authority, isn't doing you any favors. I should have stated I wasn't going to take you seriously instead with lengthy replies, that's on me and sure I'll own it, I know full well I got baited to reply by you arguing in bad faith. Later.

Head doctor? Well, I'm honored to be evaluated so highly. Though on second thought, it really sounds like you're aware of how much of an ignoramous you've made of yourself and just desperately want to mouth something, anything off... No matter, I was just voicing frustrations, as I've mentioned guys like you really like to diagnose both others and themselves with all manner of things they know nothing about. I've no illusions of actually being able to educate you.

As for being baited: surely you jest. What could I come up with to bait someone who isn't even ashamed of publically admiting to being a coward who'll kowtow to anything with enough pressure, regardless of his own thoughts on the matter? It's like trying to fat-shame a sow. I know futile when I see it.

 

[Beregorn]

The new girl is definitely not involved with what is going on, and surely she isn't going to backstab them...

 

[sotokouya]

For those who don't know, you can read about the controversy on the mangadex autor's page:

i already forgot that this is the same person that named a character "shion femme fatale" lol

 

[sotokouya]

thanks for picking this up, one of my favorite solely because of the personality of the heroine alone, rarely we got someone with such attitude