Lilim Holic - Vol. 2 Ch. 17 - Lilim's Lesson

[UdenEmpati]

To be fair, 98% of shoujo romance has a scene where the male lead grabs the female lead's wrist, pushes her against the wall, or pushes her down on the ground and leans in close to her face. He'll say something like "I could just eat you up" or "I just can't help myself." And then the female lead is turned on by this behavior, instead of terrified. Then ~60 chapters later when the sales are flagging they introduce a second male lead and they do it again. I'd say it's not a double standard, it is the standard, and that's disgusting.

I agree that she's getting off too lightly. Considering she's a minor, I might not send her to prison prison, as that tends to cause recidivism instead of reforming people. Instead I'd sentence her to some kind of outpatient prison/community service, and I'd expel her from her school and make her attend a school for criminals.

your "preferred punishment" runs the same risk of producing the same negative outcomes as "prison prison". She's a minor, yes, and as objectively bad as what she did was, there's also the fact that it was a one-off case, potentially her first offense (given we're shown nothing that says she has a pattern of doing this as I would expect that would be stated at some point in her conversation with their old instructor), and it didn't escalate past what we saw it as—and she was stopped, and was reported promptly in the particular context she was by Emu. (i.e. not as full-on rape, thus changing the texture of what is understood to have happened).
She's spoken with a litany of people; we see it listed out on page 6—"you've done the interrogations, interviews, re-education, and apology letters", and now she has to apologize to Yui in-person. That all sounds like she's being treated as a first-time offender who's a kid who is also a bit dumb; she clearly had no real sense of the severity of what she did, and it's been made clear to her now. Just the "re-educated" part could mean she was put through the same course they all had as children in the flashback; if it didn't take before, then surely it will take now that she's had a brush with the "consequences" side of the problematic nature of her actions.

Plus, Emu has now done something similar in forcing her way into Yui's dream. Sure, she didn't do it consciously, and "nothing really happened", but it's still a situation where her Succubus powers were activated and she invaded someone else's sense of autonomy where consent can't be given, and Yui still put his hand to her breast.
So if Rinka were to get the book thrown at her, then Emu would also be expected to not get off scot-free. Ostensibly, people would want the authorities involved to be lenient with her, so Rinka should also be shown more nuanced attention and consideration. What she did was worse, but it wasn't so bad that her life should be ruined by expelling her and sending her to some sort of reform school, when there's still a chance that she could learn from this and do better.

Besides, I'd argue it's pretty apparent that she's been shown to have her own issues going on outside of the main plotline of Yui & Emu. That's not excusing what she did, but the end of this chapter shows she's coming to realize how much she fucked up, and is clearly shaken by the extent of the ramifications she might face. Giving her a chance here and now could prevent her going down a darker path, which wouldn't be the case if more harsh measures were taken.

Because when it comes to minors and this sort of stuff (remember, they're all basically 16), it's a complicated dance to instill understanding and enact consequences that don't push people into deliquancy and future criminal behavior. We get a shorthand version of what Rinka was subjected to, but it was clearly deemed appropriate for what she did and she now has to correct course herself to ensure things don't escalate. Taking that opportunity away from her wouldn't really help things, for her or for Yui.

 

[outinthegardener]

your "preferred punishment" runs the same risk of producing the same negative outcomes as "prison prison". She's a minor, yes, and as objectively bad as what she did was, there's also the fact that it was a one-off case, potentially her first offense (given we're shown nothing that says she has a pattern of doing this as I would expect that would be stated at some point in her conversation with their old instructor), and it didn't escalate past what we saw it as—and she was stopped, and was reported promptly in the particular context she was by Emu. (i.e. not as full-on rape, thus changing the texture of what is understood to have happened).
She's spoken with a litany of people; we see it listed out on page 6—"you've done the interrogations, interviews, re-education, and apology letters", and now she has to apologize to Yui in-person. That all sounds like she's being treated as a first-time offender who's a kid who is also a bit dumb; she clearly had no real sense of the severity of what she did, and it's been made clear to her now. Just the "re-educated" part could mean she was put through the same course they all had as children in the flashback; if it didn't take before, then surely it will take now that she's had a brush with the "consequences" side of the problematic nature of her actions.

Plus, Emu has now done something similar in forcing her way into Yui's dream. Sure, she didn't do it consciously, and "nothing really happened", but it's still a situation where her Succubus powers were activated and she invaded someone else's sense of autonomy where consent can't be given, and Yui still put his hand to her breast.
So if Rinka were to get the book thrown at her, then Emu would also be expected to not get off scot-free. Ostensibly, people would want the authorities involved to be lenient with her, so Rinka should also be shown more nuanced attention and consideration. What she did was worse, but it wasn't so bad that her life should be ruined by expelling her and sending her to some sort of reform school, when there's still a chance that she could learn from this and do better.

Besides, I'd argue it's pretty apparent that she's been shown to have her own issues going on outside of the main plotline of Yui & Emu. That's not excusing what she did, but the end of this chapter shows she's coming to realize how much she fucked up, and is clearly shaken by the extent of the ramifications she might face. Giving her a chance here and now could prevent her going down a darker path, which wouldn't be the case if more harsh measures were taken.

Because when it comes to minors and this sort of stuff (remember, they're all basically 16), it's a complicated dance to instill understanding and enact consequences that don't push people into deliquancy and future criminal behavior. We get a shorthand version of what Rinka was subjected to, but it was clearly deemed appropriate for what she did and she now has to correct course herself to ensure things don't escalate. Taking that opportunity away from her wouldn't really help things, for her or for Yui.

I get what you're saying- the punishment should allow for growth and reform. But some claims you make seem like opinions. The claim that reform schools cause recidivism just like prisons, for one. That expelling her would "ruin her life" is the other. Those things are possible in any hypothetical punishment we come up with, including the one currently happening in the text.

I also don't think it's fair to equate Emu's unintentional dream invasion with Rinka's deliberate sexual assault.

The disagreement comes down to if one thinks some material punishment should be applied, or if an emotional punishment is enough. There's variance in which approach is effective or not. Scolded Rinka could think "I only got yelled at? I got away with it!" or think "I guess what I did was seriously bad and I know not to do it again." Reform school Rinka could think "I deserved this, I need to do better" or think "This is so unfair, I don't trust the rules and I'll break them again!" There isn't a clear answer about which approach is more successful for the end goal of growth and reform.

But the thing about creating a system of rules and consequences is that they suffer when not applied consistently. If 'Kid who gets expelled' sees 'Other Kid who did the same thing but only got a scolding,' that decreases the chances that the former Kid will respect the rule system in the future. And sometimes, those punishments really are necessary- repeat offenders, sociopaths, privileged kids who get enabled, etc. That creates a dilemma where you want to apply a rule consistently, even when it might not be necessary for the offender to learn better.

 

[theshet]

Everyone's think pieces need to chill UNTIL the actual apology happens lol. Then we can actually decide if this stuff was addressed properly.

 

[eltuzo]

I mean there's two things to consider here, one is that she's a minor which in most countries means you get leniency. The other is that this is a story and unfortunately it would be a lot more boring for her to just go to Jail. So while it could've been perceived as attempted rape, all she did was bite his ear and fingers and they call it "non-consensual obscenity" which is probably what Yui and Ema reported it as.

The bit about being ghosted by her boyfriend I personally dont see an an "excuse" but just characterisation and another reinforcement of how the author is trying to convey that Succubi are perceived differently by than other people. I'm not saying this couldnt have been done better but its rare for this sort of topic to be explored and at least attempted to be handled properly.

At the end of the day the consequences part is whatever, she got more than what I would've expected and they at least somewhat acknowledged it was nonconsensual.

The issue personally I have with it is that they're giving her a sob story (which honestly barely qualifies as one) to make people empathize with her, which I just think is fucking weird when the subject is rape. You have plenty of examples of people in this thread who are like "aww, I feel sorry for her and hope she gets a good ending" after the author gave her that backstory.

I think a good example of this empathy double standard is Al from DomeKano, whom a lot of people online (rightfully) hate for attempting to rape the FMC, even though he did so while drunk (after having been shown to completely lose his mind while drunk) and without having intentionally ingested alcohol. In that situation he was far less in control of his actions than Rinka who just felt sad and frustrated, and yet he is treated far worse by people.

I don't think her choosing a shitty boyfriend who used her because he was tall and handsome is really a commentary on the perception of succubi, it's just to make her look like a victim and to have Katou help her find a better relationship or something in the future.

Another issue is that she's completely unrepentant. She didn't even think she did anything wrong, and was only shocked because she might have faced actual consequences, not because she regrets what she did to Yui, and she will likely stay unrepentant since Yui will likely accept her apology and have no issue with what she did.

 

[UdenEmpati]

I get what you're saying- the punishment should allow for growth and reform. But some claims you make seem like opinions. The claim that reform schools cause recidivism just like prisons, for one. That expelling her would "ruin her life" is the other. Those things are possible in any hypothetical punishment we come up with, including the one currently happening in the text.

I also don't think it's fair to equate Emu's unintentional dream invasion with Rinka's deliberate sexual assault.

The disagreement comes down to if one thinks some material punishment should be applied, or if an emotional punishment is enough. There's variance in which approach is effective or not. Scolded Rinka could think "I only got yelled at? I got away with it!" or think "I guess what I did was seriously bad and I know not to do it again." Reform school Rinka could think "I deserved this, I need to do better" or think "This is so unfair, I don't trust the rules and I'll break them again!" There isn't a clear answer about which approach is more successful for the end goal of growth and reform.

But the thing about creating a system of rules and consequences is that they suffer when not applied consistently. If 'Kid who gets expelled' sees 'Other Kid who did the same thing but only got a scolding,' that decreases the chances that the former Kid will respect the rule system in the future. And sometimes, those punishments really are necessary- repeat offenders, sociopaths, privileged kids who get enabled, etc. That creates a dilemma where you want to apply a rule consistently, even when it might not be necessary for the offender to learn better.

I think what I zero'd in on was your specific usage of the phrase "school for criminals", which as a term apploed to a (ostensibly) first-time offending minor is where my point grew from. Words do mean things—evidenced by how much weight was applied to the "Demon" label in this chapter—but to presume intent of message without evidence isn't correct, either.

I agree with the other points you made; the labing of her as a "criminal" was my own bias of that term being weaponized against otherwise-marginalized people IRL without accounting for nuance—which you even advocated for—got the better of me. Which is a me thing and something I should account for so it doesn't influence the rest of my interpretation.

I think Rinka should be held to account. Unfortunately(ish), we get a quick rundown of what she was made to do in a single panel with no real depth of detail (though I would say it sounds like it went beyond "scolding", but again—word choice & interpretation), but I do agree with what another person said that we do need the actual apology and Yui's response to such, before more can be said.

Depending on Yui's reaction and Rinka's subsequent behavior and mindset, it'll be more clear what should maybe be done.

As far as what Emu did compared to what Rinka did—they're not the same, but what Emu did does technically run afoul of the rules they have in place, and if she actually saw no legal consequences for it if others were made aware of it happening, it would be an uneven application of the system governing Succubi. Lesser crime doesn't mean no crime, essentially.

That doesn't mean the book should be thrown at Emu, either, or that she should be disciplinedto the extent Rinka was (whether that was "sufficient" or not, aside). But I's argue that it would at least demonstrate consistency of the rules, should it come to light. (And if it doesn't, then it's a moot point either way, since it also seems the dream incident is intended to push the romance plot, more than additional world-building like Rinka's situation did.)

 

[PowerExtreme]

Nah I hope it does turn into harem slop, somebody needs to get this romance moving.

What?

Harem is the worst

Just have multiple couples that develop at a different pace

 

[outinthegardener]

I think what I zero'd in on was your specific usage of the phrase "school for criminals", which as a term apploed to a (ostensibly) first-time offending minor is where my point grew from. Words do mean things—evidenced by how much weight was applied to the "Demon" label in this chapter—but to presume intent of message without evidence isn't correct, either.

I agree with the other points you made; the labing of her as a "criminal" was my own bias of that term being weaponized against otherwise-marginalized people IRL without accounting for nuance—which you even advocated for—got the better of me. Which is a me thing and something I should account for so it doesn't influence the rest of my interpretation.

I think Rinka should be held to account. Unfortunately(ish), we get a quick rundown of what she was made to do in a single panel with no real depth of detail (though I would say it sounds like it went beyond "scolding", but again—word choice & interpretation), but I do agree with what another person said that we do need the actual apology and Yui's response to such, before more can be said.

Depending on Yui's reaction and Rinka's subsequent behavior and mindset, it'll be more clear what should maybe be done.

As far as what Emu did compared to what Rinka did—they're not the same, but what Emu did does technically run afoul of the rules they have in place, and if she actually saw no legal consequences for it if others were made aware of it happening, it would be an uneven application of the system governing Succubi. Lesser crime doesn't mean no crime, essentially.

That doesn't mean the book should be thrown at Emu, either, or that she should be disciplinedto the extent Rinka was (whether that was "sufficient" or not, aside). But I's argue that it would at least demonstrate consistency of the rules, should it come to light. (And if it doesn't, then it's a moot point either way, since it also seems the dream incident is intended to push the romance plot, more than additional world-building like Rinka's situation did.)

I have regrets about "school for criminals", that choice of phrase was an unfortunate hot take. What I meant was "Lose some personal freedom, go to a place where there is more oversight and intentional lessons on how she could have behaved better." Like a school where you know you're being punished and there's a lesser panopticon and some cognitive behavioral therapy. It doesn't even need to be a permanent change; it could be for a few months or for the rest of the school year. Spelling that out, that's an idealized reform school I just made up, which was sloppy of me to reduce to flip shorthand.

 

[Kinkaiser]

That doesn't mean the book should be thrown at Emu, either, or that she should be disciplinedto the extent Rinka was (whether that was "sufficient" or not, aside).

Getting a talking to and having to give an apology actually sounds like an appropriate consequence for Emu's loss of control of her power. Also definitely coupled with more lessons on controlling dream walking.

 

[xenild]

Thanksfully for her, that was more than just consensua, my boy WANTED IT

 

[Chuito]

So even though there wasn't exactly a case against Rinka, she did face consequences. I'm fine with that.

What I don't like is that the author is kinda putting Emu in the same situation as Rinka, since Emu entered Yui's dream without his consent.

Also, I really hope Rinka doesn't develop feelings for Yui and start going after him. Please don't turn this into harem crap.

Thanks for the chapter!

Look at it from Emu's POV. She 100% would feel guilty as if she did the same thing as Rinka. As far as she knows he isn't interested in her at all and now she forced him to have yet another unpleasant experience right after the previous one. She just doesnt know that he would consent because its her.

Thing is, Emu would feel as if she is no better than Rinka. She might know its to a lesser degree and unintentional, but the guilt wouldnt just dissapear.

Excellent world building in my opinion. It shows proper and serious consequences may happen. It was sexual assault after all and its treated as a serious offence (which it is). Rinka is also an emotional teenager so its also expected some young succubi would impulsively misuse their powers

 

[Chuito]

The blonde succubus is even shocked that she could be arrested for magically sexually assaulting someone

Brother I can confidently tell you the vast majority of women would react the same way after sexually assaulting a man. I've literally seen girls be told basically the same thing after the grabbed another male student's crotch dueing highschool (my school even dedicated a whole day to teaching about the ethics and sex ed of such things after the incident)

As the author made a point of showing, they're human and prone to humam vulnerabilities. You cant say someone that is significantly bigger and stronger would never abuse that power when everyone else is weaker when im a heated emotional state. It happens a lot. The story implies that has been an issue in history. Life aint fair, they have more power and are acrutinized more for it

 

[Chuito]

I think it's clear that entering dreams is something that can happen without intent, the whole reason the teacher was having them practice. So it's a potentially sketchy situation, but how Emu acts inside the dream is certainly important, too. Emu didn't do anything there that was really problematic, Yui certainly felt he acted like a gentleman and did a good job of asking for positive consent.

Subtle characterization shows her not being interested in the dream lesson and tried to avoid it early in the chapter. I bet we'll see her regretting not taking those lessons more seriously

 

[Friendly-Sentence710]

Both of these girls need to report to horny jail immediately.