Loli/ shota tags sexual/not sexual

[Teney]

Please define what the "Loli" and "Shota" tags imply for this site.
Every second comic with children gets this this tag, like "The Terrifying Hitman and The Little Girl He Took in" or "Kumicho Musume to Sewagakari" and some suggested to actually put this tag on "Ascendance of a Bookworm".
If its like that, then why doesnt One Piece get this tag? Or One Punch Man getting the shota tag for the child emperor? Or just "Shin Chan", imagine that with a shota tag because he actually has some scenes where he is naked.
I just want everyone to decide if we should literally put shota and loli tags on every comic that contains children, or to make a clear separation between "a cute child" and "a sexy child".
I dont want to feel like a pedo every time I read the tags for comics with cute children. And I cant show them to my friends eighter because I will need to make excuses for years to come. This site might create misunderstandings in my and many others lifes!
My follows are more embarrassing for me to show than my porn-link collection.

On batoto there was a clear definition of tags when you put your mouse on it in the search options, which is what I would wish for. If it is too hard, I want some admin or mod to at least create a rule that can permanently be seen somewhere that defines this word, might even be the forum, just so I and many others can reference it to others.
Or just remove them entirely..

I, have actually had a conversation with others under "Ascendance of a Bookworm 1" (8 months ago) which you can read through. And I will be satisfied with ANY definition as long as I get one.
Besides, I believe that I am not the only one that is not content with the situation of those two tags right now as I have seen others complain about it.

Edit: "sexualized lolis/shotas " are the same as "gay homosexuals", saying the same twice.

 

[Pika]

Oh boy, heeeeeere we go again!

 

[sterven]

Once I saw the Yuri thread I fucking knew this was coming.

 

[T3Deliciouz]

personally, sexual lolis and shotas should be banned.

 

[crazybars]

@Teney

Plykiya brought up a new Sexual rating thing the staff came up with that's like the Danbooru version of Sexual ratings as a compromise for the Shoujo Ai tag thingie. That will be applied to everything.


Just use Ctrl F search " crazybars" or "Plykiya" in the below Thread pages.

https://mangadex.org/thread/191519/11
https://mangadex.org/thread/191519/12


And this link just in case so no one goes insane like me and thinks it will be user rated or some stupid shit like that, here's a link to what Danbooru's Sexual ratings are like.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki_pages/howto:rate

 

[Teney]

@T3Deliciouz
"sexual lolis and shotas should be banned"
this is the problem, the words loli and shota are sexual initially. So the use of the word for every comic with children isnt appropriate.
What I am saying is, you should write "sexualized children should be banned"! What you wrote is " sexualized 'sexualized children' should be banned". Which is the same as "gay homosexuals"!
I am actually not applying for those tags to be banned but to be defined.

@crazybars
"Sexual rating"
There isnt ANY implication to sexualized children in the manga I have mentioned, so what I am applying for is for those two terms to be recogniced as sexual terms initially without any rating, for this site. Thus your comment does not fit into what I am applying for.

 

[tfwnowaifu]

@T3Deliciouz
Then stop consuming manga and anime. Shota and loli have been, and will always be, sexualized to some degree. If you don't like it find another hobby. Christ you retards never fail to fucking amaze me.

 

[Teney]

Please try not to attack other people. I want this to be a discussion and not a shitstorm.

 

[BestBoy]

I really don't think loli/shota should be used in any manga that isn't sexualizing children. Report the tags when you see them.

edit: Since the thread is locked by mods with the ridiculous claim that "loli/shota isn't inherently sexual" I'd like to remind everyone that the terminology is short for lolicon/shotacon which itself is a portmanteau of lolita complex/shota complex. Lolita (coined from a book about a pedophilic relationship) and shota being the attraction to prepubescent boys and girls, and complex being a Jungian psychoanalytical term for a core pattern of wishes in the personal unconscious organized around a common theme.

 

[421cookies]

Just a take from me Loli connoisseur,
since the question is about loli as a genre, then whether the tag should be used or not is based on how big of relevances it has on to the story.
in other words, if the child is practically main character or the children is what drives the story, then yes it should be tagged with loli.

Also no, Loli don't have to be sexual to be called Loli

 

[ABCsOfLife]

Imply for this site...
Try "@" the staff, either the admin or PR people will do.

 

[Kaarme]

@crazybars If you bring Danbooru into the discussion, it ought to be remembered that at Danbooru the tags work exactly like @Teney would like them to work here: loli and shota would automatically mean sexualisation. Thus, if it doesn't happen in the work, those tags shouldn't be there, even if there are children around.

For whatever it counts for, I do agree with it. Tags are pointless if they aren't decently strictly defined. They most certainly shouldn't be based on the jokes the scanlator or commenters throw around.

 

[Teney]

@421cookies This is the problem here, for me (and every other site where the words loli/shota were defined, as far as I have seen it) the definition stated that it directly implies a sexuallization of children and not, as you have stated, the relevance to the story.
Your defenition would imply that "Shin chan" that is the main character of the story, is a shota. We should be able to agree that this genre does not even slightly fit for this manga, since its a manga for children.

As I have said, I had a discussion about this under "Ascendence of a Bookworm", where, I believe someone of your mindset, has stated his opinion of this tag. He even went as far as to say that the meaning of the word has changed, which is ok, but it should be defined clearly for this site.
I do not want to push my opinion forward, I just want this site to take a stance what those two terms are implying.
And as an example, I have named an option of showing the definition of the tag when holding the mouse over said options in the search menu.

@ABCsOfLife You mean I should @ someone to show them this thread, or for the specific comic I want the tag to be changed for?
If its the first, I actually hoped I the admins would see this thread on their own instead of trying to push it up forcefully.
As for the second option, I believe that it would only adress a small part of a big problem of this site.

 

[firelight]

in other words, if the child is practically main character or the children is what drives the story, then yes it should be tagged with loli.

I think it should be this. If the manga is sexual, it'll have other (sexual) tags. This would allow users to search for manga with and without sexualized children which would be harder if the loli/shota tags were only for sexual content.

Well said, tfwnowaifu. 😃

 

[Teney]

@firelight On the other hand if there is a manga where there are some sexual scenes, but not with children, then this would create missunderstandings since the initial definition as per wiki is sexual.
What you are speaking of right now is what already exists... which is what I am not content with (but never mind).
Besides, if there are no explizit sexual scenes, but are some that are implizit, like the bahaviour of an older male counterpart behaving sexually aroused with a fitting drawing style, then it will still be counted as loli/shota.

Idially a different tag would be needed for the comics that do not show children in a sexual way while making loli/shota tags explizidly sexual. But this is not what I want to discuss in this thread.

 

[Zephyrus]

@tfwnowaifu
We come down extremely hard on people who shitfling in the suggestions forum. Knock it off.

 

[Sabruness]

I wholeheartedly support @Teney in this. Loli/Shota, in the big rework, should get a lateral shuffle and be defined as explicitly sexual. People of those persuasions may, and seemingly have, try to argue that the terms have taken on a broader and more obtuse meaning to reflect children in general. While lolicons and shotacon probably feel like this gives the terms a better image, in fact it just causes a giant problem for non-loli/shotacons because to most who even have an inkling of weeb culture, loli and shota have the connotations (rightly) of meaning sexualized children (i.e trending very very close to paedophilia).

Thus, making recommendations for cute wholesome fluff manga can be a minefield. On the search front, it can also cause problems because you have wholesome and innocent fluff ending up mixed in with lolicon/shotacon bait thus if you want to search for the fluff, chances are the results will also contain said bait.

Thus, good long term option is to properly define loli/shota as sexualized and if the need is judged needed create a fresh tag for the stuff where children just appear normally. That way you have a clear and strict defining line for the sanity of the general non-loli/shotacon readership.

(on a personal opinion, lolicon should just be nuked in general.)

 

[ABCsOfLife]

Well you are opening discussion to clarify what MD meant with Loli and Shota so... try mentioning them (the staff I mentioned before) in this thread.
Sorry if it wasn't clear before.

Eyy there's Zeph.. that said I don't think defining tags is his job as moderator.

 

[421cookies]

As for shinchan it doesn't have the charm of what you think from your general known shota, 'cute or ikemen boy which feels good to see' and so it could be passed without the tag. For book fetish, I don't read the manga but from the anime, I can't see any of them as children or rather, the series itself doesn't try to show much of them being a children so I guess it could pass as well.

Then, if the problem is about confusion whether it's sexualized or not, you can always exclude ecchi smut or whatever to find the not sexualized one. If you want to seclude it into sexual content, there's also any betterword that can define manga with children. 'Little girls, little boys, children' don't come close enough with the current term. Japanese equivalent like 'Youjo, Youji, Kodomo' are even more useless since they're less known by casual weeb.

And anyone who stay weeb long enough should naturally know what actual meaning of loli is and if they're not, they're probably just the type who doesn't care of anything other than solo leveling, tensura, and one punch man.

So tldr, Loli manga is about loli being a loli. No less, no more. And don't start a thread about whether legal loli really should be called loli or whether loli with mental age of adult should be called loli.

 

[Teney]

@Plykiya @Teasday I am sorry to @ you both, but this thread needs MDs opinion, because if there isnt, we all are are arguing for nothing.
Please clarify, as stated above, what MD defines by the tags "loli" and "shota".