MangaDex needs to stop pretending :rejected:

[zerimas]

So MangaDex is big on respecting scanlator's "rights" and acquiescing to their every request and doing things like implementing "delays". MangaDex also won't rehost stuff that is done by Mangasteam and whatnot. However, MangaDex has no problem allowing actual licensed works on the site provided they are "out of print".

Guess what? I am pretty sure that even if the company is defunct, even if the official translation is out of print licensed translations are still covered by copyright laws. You can read about it here: https://bookwormtranslations.com/copyright-law-and-translation-what-you-need-to-know/ or in any number of places. Works do no become part of the public domain just because the company went out of business. Stuff like ROMs and abandonware are still actually subject to copyright it is just that nobody cares. In the case of something being "out of print"—just because the owner of the copyright isn't making it for sale it doesn't you're free to do whatever you want.

MD is being completely hypocritical. It doesn't respect the rights of people who can actually make a legal claim to their work just because they aren't currently monetizing it—but it will bend over backwards to make sure that scanlators and other sites (like JB and Mangastream) can monetize the works that they have absolutely no legal claim to whatsoever.

If MD is going to extend protections to entities that have no legal claim to their content, then it seems pretty silly to violate the protections afforded to actual license holders. The whole thing is completely ideologically inconsistent. If MD doesn't want to be a "pirate" site that uses content without the creators' permission (even though there is nothing stopping it from doing so where scanlations are concerned), then all the content labelled "Ex-licenses" needs to go. Somewhere there is someone with a legitimate claim to that. It isn't public domain. The holders of those rights just haven't made trouble for MD yet and made a claim to them.

MD either needs respect everyone's "rights"—in this case both legal and completely imaginary (in the case of scanlators)—or it needs to chuck the whole farce and just be a "pirate" site. A compromise between the two positions is total hypocrisy and untenable.

I can't actually dictate how MD wants to conduct itself. I choose to the site and I am the one who pays my pittance of monthly donation. However, MD has provided this forum and this space specifically to make suggestions—so that is what I am doing.

TL;DR: I don't think the moderators have any business enforcing a third-party's imaginary claims when MD has no problem violating someone's actual legal rights to content. "Out of print" works are still subject to copyright. Scanlators have not be given the rights to do the translation—with the exception of TheElusiveTaco (who has actually be given the blessing of the creators although I do not know what sort of agreement TheElusiveTaco has with them—presumably the authors would be angered if TheElusiveTaco were to start selling their work without them proper remuneration). It is totally unreasonable from an ideological standpoint (I guess technically MD can do whatever it wants, but I don't agree with it—nor do I have to support it) for the admins to just arbitrarily enforce people's claims to content without any basis.

EDIT: Feel free to lock or delete this thread. I don't actually care anymore.

 

[zerimas]

To further expound upon my point: things are subject to licenses. Even doujin goods in Japan are granted a special 1-day license to be sold at cons. If something as derivative as doujin good is subject to IP rights, why would a translation not be?

Also even if scanlations were somehow "protected" it doesn't give groups the rights to request the removal of other people's translations—something which JB is alleged to have done with respect to Kaguya-sama wa Kokurasetai: Tensai-tachi no Renai Zunousen . You can read about it here: https://boards.fireden.net/a/thread/169834357/.

In any case you can't just translate something and then claim you own the rights to it. That would be ridiculous. The original author would be totally screwed in that case. The only time you could actually do that is if the original work was licensed under something like MIT license (and there are rules to that too). The original creator/rights holder always holds the rights to control derivative works (with the exception of "fair use") unless they specifically waive that right. A scanlator's work is not protected. The idea scanlators have some kind of "right" to control how their illegal scanlation is used is a total delusion. If MD wants to spend their time and effort protecting the fragile delusions of scanlators, well I guess they can do that. I feel like that would be an awfully silly thing to do.

 

[Kaarme]

You are misunderstanding things. MD isn't protecting scanlators' imaginary rights, it's merely respecting their wishes. Without scanlators, MD would have very little material to host. For the most part, scanlators are doing their work for fun on their free time (or for practice), so they would only do it as long as they enjoy it. Of course there are always exceptions who have managed to create income out of it even after all the expenses, but they aren't the standard. Generally speaking when you make something as a hobby to be given to people for free, it's kind of disgusting when some scumbags out there monetise it for their own benefit (the usual aggregator sites). That's where MD tries to be different, which is why you see the delayed postings. Or no material from certain scanlators posted. It's not about honouring any legal rights, it's just for their mental well-being and happiness.

Since it's not about the legal stuff like you imagined, it also exlains why there could be licensed material present, within any arbitrary rules MD decided for itself.

 

[FireFish5000]

Although it is my personal take on this (I am not going to re-read rules/faq or scroll through old post doki.co for original debates on the creation of this site).

MD isn't respecting, and doesn't truly care about "rights" of scanlators. That is just not what this is about.

What this is about is making a place where both readers and scanlators will WANT to come and will feel comfortable sharing their work.
If you do not care about what the scanlator thinks, go to literally ANY OTHER MANGA SITE. (each word is a different site)

The fact they care about the scanlator (who creates the content for the site) is what makes the site both diffrent and great. And, honestly, is the reason for the sites creation to begin with (we replace the old bato.to, which also respected the scanlators).

The site is actualy founded by scanlators/fansubbers, they made a place where they felt like they would want to upload their works, and believed other scanlators would feel the same as well.

One of the big things with scanlators is, they often actually do care very much about the original work (hence the amount of time they spend scanlating for free). They may not want to inhibit the original authors profits. Because of this (or other reasons), these scanlators want their translations wiped from as much of the internet as possible once official translations come out.

In other words, if the scanlator gives a crap about the author's profits, MD makes it possible for them to remove their free scanlations to hopefully not inhibit sales. (this actually used to be a lot more common of a practice IIRC). There are of course others who (eg. those who make a profit via ad revenue ), but MD isn't trying to work out whats moral/right and whats not, just make it so most people who actually do the translations will want to share their work. So... they give them the same options

(this would normally be a draft version of my comment, but I don't think I need to expand my view much further than this.)
TL;DR
@zerimas
This has nothing to do with rights. Your misunderstanding the point of this sites existence. Plenty of pirate sites exist for reading manga without respecting the scanlators wishes. This is (the only?) one that does care about them. If we decide to disregard them then we will
1) loose the very essence of our existence.
2) loose most (all?) staff members (this site is founded and run by scanlators)
3) sell ourselves to kissmanga for profit bc who the hell is going to run this server now that the scanlators who founded it left?

 

[zerimas]

it's kind of disgusting when some scumbags out there monetise it for their own benefit (the usual aggregator sites).

Yes that is bad.

hat's where MD tries to be different, which is why you see the delayed postings. Or no material from certain scanlators posted. It's not about honouring any legal rights, it's just for their mental well-being and happiness.

Why are we protecting their precious feel-feels? MD doesn't need to do such a thing.

Since it's not about the legal stuff like you imagined, it also exlains why there could be licensed material present, within any arbitrary rules MD decided for itself.

So what you're saying is that the rules are total bullshit, right? Why even have the rules in the first place? Why not just allow blatantly pirated material that is already available in English? If it isn't a question of legality, then why not allow it?

MD isn't protecting scanlators' imaginary rights, it's merely respecting their wishes.

From what I hear it is the case that MD is totally entertaining their scanlator drama.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mangadex/comments/9bmd6u/im_confused/

Anyway, you can see from this comment by the admins what their position is.

My question is why does MD abide by crybaby scanlators and bow to the wishes of entities like Mangastream? Aggregators already take their content without asking. What difference does it make if MangaDex does too? I like MD and it's lack of ads. However, MD not making money from illegal content, and playing into scanlator's unwarranted self-importance along with feeding their entitlement are two very separate issues.

If the scanlators aren't making money off their content (I have heard that JB certainly does) there is no reason for them to ask for a group delay. If they post it on MangaDex they don't have hosting costs. MangaDex foots the bill. The only expenses they have are raws. In which case they can just take donations.

 

[zerimas]

@firefish5000

If you do not care about what the scanlator thinks, go to literally ANY OTHER MANGA SITE. (each word is a different site)

I actually don't care what the scanlator thinks. I come here because I like the layout and there aren't any ads.

One of the big things with scanlators is, they often actually do care very much about the original work (hence the amount of time they spend scanlating for free). They may not want to inhibit the original authors profits. Because of this (or other reasons), these scanlators want their translations wiped from as much of the internet as possible once official translations come out.

Well if this is so important, why are we leaving it up to the individual scanlation groups. If MD wants to protect the authors, then they should remove licensed content. Why would you leave it to the individual scanlations groups to decide whether or not they screw over the author?

1) loose the very essence of our existence.
2) loose most (all?) staff members (this site is founded and run by scanlators)
3) sell ourselves to kissmanga for profit bc who the hell is going to run this server now that the scanlators who founded it left?

Yeah, I am going to say you are exaggerating. What do the founders do? I thought the servers were paid for by donations. People come here because they don't want their computers infected with malware and be subject to ads for shitty hentai games by going on Kissmanga. I am pretty sure there would still be traffic and donations if the admins stopped indulging the unwarranted self-importance of groups like JB. I don't come here and donate because I care about the feelings of a bunch scanlators.

but MD isn't trying to work out whats moral/right and whats not, just make it so most people who actually do the translations will want to share their work

Well if they don't want to share their work then they don't have to. They can just read manga on their own. If their not going to share it, then they don't to translate it. It is that simple. It is one thing to provide a place for people to upload their translations. Having things like group delays removing stuff that has already been posted to mangastream, et cetera is completely and totally separate giving people a location to display their work.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

~I'm not arguing, just commenting~​

Oh my gosh you all write a lot. I don't find this type of debate fun so I'm not gonna argue. Just comment.

Why complain about a free site? Just enjoy the free mangoes.

Plus I'm pretty sure everybody on the forums are already aware that MD is on a grey area in the legal zone. No need to tag me, Imma just watch from a distance and comment as a passerby from time to time.


Just reread some things.

In any case you can't just translate something and then claim you own the rights to it.

Wait what? Since when is this true? Snipers exist because no one owns anything just because they translate it first. Why do you think /a/nonymous and #dropout are competing in their chapter releases over at 5Toubun no Hanayome if one of them owns it in the first place?

-I'm not arguing, just commenting-​

 

[fresthy]

I agree, and mangadex should stop kowtowing to crybaby reader too.
The end result is: the mangadex's owner should do whatever the fuck he want to do.
which in this case, the owner decided to implement the delay feature.

 

[FireFish5000]

@zerimas Not exaggerating. We really don't have much left that makes us different from the other existing sites if you take the scanlators out of the picture.
1) As to why it is the essence of the site... well, why was this site founded? Largely because Bato.to was being sold, which was another manga site which respected scanlators. Many of the readers here come from there, and the founders created this to replace it. They even got a large amount of bato.to's uploads handed to them by one of the old staff's backups IIRC.

2) Again, pretty much all (if not all) staff are part of a scanlator team. Do not assume donars do anything. Money is nice, but it doesn't automagicly manage a server, write code, find/test/accept reliable moderators, or translate manga (again, the founders are scanlators, many of them still scanlate and would be less than happy if we just turned into the other sites)

3) is going a bit far... but, at the same time, the reason why bato.to shutdown was the owner didn't have time/willpower for it anymore. And donors cannot do crap to stop that. Although donars may pay for it, they don't own any rights to it. The only way the site will live on is if the founders stay content with it, or decide to pass the baton (bato.to chose to sell out, domain sold for $5,000 USD. Not a grand amount, but good money when your getting rid of a domain for a server that was sucking the life out of you).

As for the original work profit issue. I said because the scanlators might care about it. Not because MD does. Just so, if they care, they can still feel like they can scanlate here while doing no harm. MD, especially the founding group

Spoiler

The founding group's (Doki's) policy is a complete 180 here. Originally promising to never drop a series due to licensing or upcoming official translations. Actually, their founding principle and moto was "we will never drop a series, ever". While this, of course, proved impossible in the end (scanlators/fansubbers stop being NEETs, get lives, loose lives, etc), the basic idea of not dropping due to licensing still holds. As to why they had this moto, IIRC, Holo was watching a series when the fansub group (m.3.3.w. ?) dropped it due to licensing. We should all thank them for dropping it though since doki and likely this site wouldn't exist had they continued.

, doesn't really hold this belief, but it acknowledges how common it is.

Spoiler

To be clear, while it is a dying trend, these groups still exist, and there are even several hidden translation groups in existence. They do things like IRC only uploads, password protected uploads, etc to ensure their translation isn't made public. Most of the hidden scanlators I am following are translating works that have ongoing official translations (they translate the chapters the official translations haven't got to yet). These would actually be A OK from MD's perspective, but the scanlators do not want their work uploaded here because it is guaranteed that aggregator sites will rip it, which they can not stop, and cannot delete it once the official chapters come out. These people are sort of the extremist version of the scanlators that remove their scanlations when official ones come out (since they are not only concerned about what they uploaded, but all places it rippled out to). And this is one of the few somewhat-common scanlation group use case I currently know of that MD has no means (and no plans) to support.

I did not organize my thoughts at all. After I edited something, I lost my train of though and now have no clue what I was typing, so I am just going to stop and post

 

[Kai-chan]

Most of the content on the site is subject to copyright.

You are fine with every other title having a place on the site for you to read, but not these ones?

Now THAT sounds hypocritical.

 

[Kaarme]

@zerimas You are talking like the scanlators would be robots. So far google translator doesn't produce manga scanlations on its own, though. They are people who do their hobby only as long as they enjoy it, like I said in my first post (apart from the exceptions who manage to earn money with it). When they stop enjoying it for any number of reasons that only need to make sense for themselves, then that's it, a dropped manga scanlation and thousands of people will be left licking their fingers unless someone else appears later to continue it. Sometimes one does appear, sometimes not. You say you don't care, but that sounds like you don't care about manga/manhwa/manhua at all in general. It's all the same to you if you read 30 chapters of manga, only to find out there're no more translations to be read to finish the story?

Personally I do find the two weeks delays rididulous, but it's still far better than having no translations to read. I've seen the so called sniping happening here, and I find amusing the drama that arises out of it. I think it's a jolly thing, for the most part, even if it happened to piss off the original scanlator. But at the end of the day it's a hobby for both the original and the new one, so neither is more righteous than the other. I don't envy the staff here if they are being pushed to intervene, though.

So what you're saying is that the rules are total bullshit, right? Why even have the rules in the first place? Why not just allow blatantly pirated material that is already available in English? If it isn't a question of legality, then why not allow it?

It's the site owner's place to write the rules. This is no democracy. If I don't like the rules, I'm free to leave and never come back. However, the rules don't bother me. The only rule here at Mangadex I find annoying are the lack of spoiler rules. But that's offtopic.

 

[deerafl]

If you have time to compose this thread then you have time to go read 'delayed' chapters directly from their respective scanlator's site

 

[421cookies]

JuSt LEaRN NIhONgO aNd BUy thE MaNgA YoU WeEbS

 

[shouldsleep]

OP be like:

Complaining about something when you don't even know why it is a thing.

1. MD Respects the rights of scanlators because its their work. (the translation, if it's not obvious).
2. If a scanlator doesn't want their work here then it's up to them (and there are many of those).
3. Copyright and shill ain't got anything to do with it. All of these are basically gray area anyway.
4. Out of print stuff are fair play because rarely anyone will waste time chasing after something that is already defunct.

If you do not care about what the scanlator thinks, go to literally ANY OTHER MANGA SITE. (each word is a different site)

I actually don't care what the scanlator thinks. I come here because I like the layout and there aren't any ads.

See here. The thing is, the uploads here are permitted by scanlators doing said translations. If they didn't, then you ain't gonna have anything to read here.

You'd think if a site designed to cooperate with scanlators regarding aggregating their work would listen to their wishes.

 

[Plykiya]

@zerimas
>So MangaDex is big on respecting scanlator's "rights" and acquiescing to their every request and doing things like implementing "delays". MangaDex also won't rehost stuff that is done by Mangasteam and whatnot.

MangaDex operates on the mutual relationship between scanlator and aggregator, and aggregator and reader. If you give scanlators no power over their own works, many will leave the site and choose not to upload. If you give scanlators no power over their own works and they leave, a majority of supporters will choose not to donate to the website and we die that way. There will always be another manga site to use and there's nothing that says people are forced to support us. Our site only continues to exist because of the generosity of scanlators and supporters.

So we make compromises that work in each other's favor. Scanlators get absolute power over their own works, but we do acknowledge that readers have a desire to read their content. So we have things such as Rule 2.4, which allows users to request unlocking a group that is locked on MangaDex, are missing chapters on MangaDex, and haven't released a chapter in 6 months on any website. Delays were implemented to convince groups that have no interest of uploading to MangaDex to have their content on our site. It's been successful bringing back several groups who otherwise want nothing to do with us.

This covers why allowing scanlators to have power is a good thing for readers, not necessarily a bad one. Even if it does lead to a few series without chapters.

>However, MangaDex has no problem allowing actual licensed works on the site provided they are "out of print".

This isn't about protections by law or "rights", our rules weren't made based on copyright law considering that scanlation is somewhat of a mockery of it. MangaDex's stance is just that we have no interest competing with the profits of official publishers. That's why we disallow uploading official versions of works as long as the current company can make money off them. Once their license expires or their company is defunct, there's no more profit left to be made by their company. That's when we'll allow uploading official versions (ex-licenses).

But other aggregators will always host a series regardless of the licensing status. This is a guaranteed truth. It's also guaranteed that without the scanlations of these licensed series, there's no possible way that MangaDex would be able to beat such aggregators (which is one of our goals). Allowing scanlation of licensed series is a hedge of sorts. We're the only aggregator that links official purchase sources (both Official English and Japanese) so we believe it wouldn't be in the publisher's best interest to go after us over the for-profit aggregators that are uploading official rips of their works.


> If we decide to disregard them then we will lose most (all?) staff members (this site is founded and run by scanlators)

This part is actually quite true without any exaggeration. Aside from Holo and ixlone who are founding members, the rest of staff joined to improve the site that they read manga on and upload their own scanlations to. The rules exist in their current form because it was shaped by all of our input. If scanlators are given no power over their works we wouldn't hesitate to leave. For this reason, this suggestion is rejected.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Seems like OP didn't know what they were talking about

 

[zerimas]

@shouldsleep

. If a scanlator doesn't want their work here then it's up to them (and there are many of those).

Then don't scanlate it.

MD Respects the rights of scanlators because its their work. (the translation, if it's not obvious).

Yeah, it isn't their work. It is copyright infringement. They don't have any rights. Why are you invested in licking the boots of the scanlators?

How can you claim that I don't know anything, when you couldn't even understand the basics of my argument. Scanlators have no rights. They voluntarily infringe on copyrights and then make that shit available. The idea that they can "control" their releases is completely preposterous. I have no idea why you would think they can possibly make any claim to it.

 

[zerimas]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

Seems like OP didn't know what they were talking about

No, I do. Maybe I used too many big words. I'll simplify it. Going out of your way to protect special snowflake scanlators is fucking stupid. I tried to approach this rationally by claiming it was ideologically inconsistent, but apparently you all misunderstood my point.

 

[zerimas]

@Plykiya

It's been successful bringing back several groups who otherwise want nothing to do with us.

Well screw them. You don't need their permission in the first place. If they don't want other people to use their scanlations, then just don't do them. No one is forcing them be scanlators.

It is pretty shitty to volunteer to do something and then start imposing all kinds of conditions. If you make a scanlation, you don't get to dictate how it used.

I don't how old you are, but I remember when then weren't things like streaming and aggregators. When people wanted to distribute fansubs of anime they had to use things like torrents. Now they could control things to an extent with private trackers and the like, but ultimately there was nothing stopping people from taking their work and making their own torrents. Yet somehow the hobby managed to survive.

If scanlators don't want people to use their work, then don't make it available. No one is forcing them to do anything.

I come here and donate because the site is ad-free and decently organized. I am sure that is case for most people. You can still give scanlators the ability to control their uploads without having bend over to their every demand.

Which is more important: creating a non-shitty site for people to read manga, or catering to special snowflake scanlators and pandering to the delusion that their special copyright infringement scanlation is somehow their work that they can control? The focus should be on creating a usable site. It is total bullshit for there to be missing chapters just because MD policy is to protect the feelings of a bunch of pirates.

This covers why allowing scanlators to have power is a good thing for readers, not necessarily a bad one. Even if it does lead to a few series without chapters.

No, it really doesn't. You've just spewed a bunch of PR nonsense and then claimed that it is good. How is any situation where you can't read manga a "good thing for readers"?

 

[Pika]

Wow, who made your day THAT bad?

Well screw them. You don't need their permission in the first place. If they don't want other people to use their scanlations, then just don't do them. No one is forcing them be scanlators.

Well with that mindset, can't they also say "Well, screw you. We don't need to listen to you. No one needs to abide by your logic"?