Active member
- Joined
- May 8, 2019
- Messages
- 262
Maou Gun Saikyou no Majutsushi wa Ningen datta - Vol. 2 Ch. 7
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Member
- Joined
- May 7, 2018
- Messages
- 407
Wait a minute , she said that she cant afford two of his generals because she is in a war againts the human race
and two minutes later , she makes the battlem againts each other in a week?
i mean wouldnt that be favorable to the humans ?
and two minutes later , she makes the battlem againts each other in a week?
i mean wouldnt that be favorable to the humans ?
Member
- Joined
- May 7, 2018
- Messages
- 407
@fecha Almost all the female characters knew that he could be human
Fed-Kun's army
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2018
- Messages
- 892
"And a headshot would be a guaranteed kill"
This is actually highly disputable...
As well as the claim that guns always defeat armor. It vastly depends on which gun are we talking about and what ammo is being used.
Also Crossbows are usually inferior to bows, not the other way around. Crossbows are only superior in it's ease to use and train new people with it.
Lastly they are demons, why even think on technology when many of them should be pretty much Immune to guns(you can't headshot a vampire or ghoul and expect the damage to do anything to them and it's actually quite hard to cause any damage on skeletons from afar)?
And most of them have magic at their command, which should be akin to explosives and chemical weapons, things that are already superior to guns in lethality.
No seriously anyone coming to a fantasy world and thinking that guns would help them have pretty much half assed their science classes.
It's ok to think on gun superiority on normal historical situations. But when we add magic, possibility of flight, superior mystical metals and elemental, undead, draconic and fey existences into the mix, technology falls down hard.
You can easily expect an assault rifle to go thought a realistic steel helmet or breast plate, but armor engeneering had already progressed to allow for certain armor parts to deflect bullets of high caliber.
When tested against helmets in real life, even Assault Rifle bullets which usually go through helmets as if they were paper, were shown to miss the mark if they hit the more rounded areas of the helmet in a different angle. Many armor sets already took guns into consideration when designed, and while they are not perfect against modern guns, they still work to some degree.
Now, imagined those designs on an armor set made of mythril or adamantite, Assault Rifles would now downright fail to go throught these armors unless multiple shots were fired in succession against the same part(which leaves enough time for the enemy to return fire and kill you). The natural logic would be to make ammo of similar materials right?
But then you face another problem, these materials aren't easily accessible so you can't mass product the new ammo, moreover, just because a material exists doesn't mean that it'll make for good projectiles either, it all depends on aspects such as ductibility, hardness and so on.
(Example: Mythril would make trash tier bullets, as while the metal is durable and dense, it is also far too light, which would result in a weak impact on shots. Definitely not lethal. As for adamatite, it's undisputedly durable and heavy, but there is no info on how dense it is, and if it's not dense enough, then you'll have a similar situation as titanium which also fails as a projectile even though is durable enough. But it probably is dense, but adamantite is much rarer, harder to model it into objects, making anything made from it ultra expensive)
Anyway, even if you could make projectiles, only a minority could actually carry such expensive projectiles. Which wouldn't make much of a difference when it comes to entire armies.
And I didn't even factor magical enchantments into the mix.
Meaning, stop thinking technology would easily deal with things in a fantasy world. Technological advances are only good in our world because there are no other factors which can put those advances to test. If we had had adamantite and magical enchantments in our world, all of a sudden guns might have never become a thing as they would have cost far too much to produce and mantain. They would easily die out just like the gyrojet guns pretty much disappeared, leaving only RPGs as their contribution. As simple use of magic would cost a lot(to train good mages) but have more destructive results to compensate costs(main reason why missiles while expensive are still mass produced, because they produce enough results to justify the cost) and make much more of a difference on the battlefield.
This is actually highly disputable...
As well as the claim that guns always defeat armor. It vastly depends on which gun are we talking about and what ammo is being used.
Also Crossbows are usually inferior to bows, not the other way around. Crossbows are only superior in it's ease to use and train new people with it.
Lastly they are demons, why even think on technology when many of them should be pretty much Immune to guns(you can't headshot a vampire or ghoul and expect the damage to do anything to them and it's actually quite hard to cause any damage on skeletons from afar)?
And most of them have magic at their command, which should be akin to explosives and chemical weapons, things that are already superior to guns in lethality.
No seriously anyone coming to a fantasy world and thinking that guns would help them have pretty much half assed their science classes.
It's ok to think on gun superiority on normal historical situations. But when we add magic, possibility of flight, superior mystical metals and elemental, undead, draconic and fey existences into the mix, technology falls down hard.
You can easily expect an assault rifle to go thought a realistic steel helmet or breast plate, but armor engeneering had already progressed to allow for certain armor parts to deflect bullets of high caliber.
When tested against helmets in real life, even Assault Rifle bullets which usually go through helmets as if they were paper, were shown to miss the mark if they hit the more rounded areas of the helmet in a different angle. Many armor sets already took guns into consideration when designed, and while they are not perfect against modern guns, they still work to some degree.
Now, imagined those designs on an armor set made of mythril or adamantite, Assault Rifles would now downright fail to go throught these armors unless multiple shots were fired in succession against the same part(which leaves enough time for the enemy to return fire and kill you). The natural logic would be to make ammo of similar materials right?
But then you face another problem, these materials aren't easily accessible so you can't mass product the new ammo, moreover, just because a material exists doesn't mean that it'll make for good projectiles either, it all depends on aspects such as ductibility, hardness and so on.
(Example: Mythril would make trash tier bullets, as while the metal is durable and dense, it is also far too light, which would result in a weak impact on shots. Definitely not lethal. As for adamatite, it's undisputedly durable and heavy, but there is no info on how dense it is, and if it's not dense enough, then you'll have a similar situation as titanium which also fails as a projectile even though is durable enough. But it probably is dense, but adamantite is much rarer, harder to model it into objects, making anything made from it ultra expensive)
Anyway, even if you could make projectiles, only a minority could actually carry such expensive projectiles. Which wouldn't make much of a difference when it comes to entire armies.
And I didn't even factor magical enchantments into the mix.
Meaning, stop thinking technology would easily deal with things in a fantasy world. Technological advances are only good in our world because there are no other factors which can put those advances to test. If we had had adamantite and magical enchantments in our world, all of a sudden guns might have never become a thing as they would have cost far too much to produce and mantain. They would easily die out just like the gyrojet guns pretty much disappeared, leaving only RPGs as their contribution. As simple use of magic would cost a lot(to train good mages) but have more destructive results to compensate costs(main reason why missiles while expensive are still mass produced, because they produce enough results to justify the cost) and make much more of a difference on the battlefield.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2019
- Messages
- 454
@BloodySorcerer Do you really expect any logic from the SUPERIOR NIPPON TECHNOLOGY, RICE BEST, BATHS OR BUST genre.
Fed-Kun's army
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2018
- Messages
- 892
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2018
- Messages
- 2,051
@BloodySorcerer well what you expect from japanese author?, in their life probably they just watch some american video about the firearms for his reference. They wouldn't have ever touch nor see it in close range the real thing. At best probably they inspect glock from the police armament.
@BloodySorcerer Tech and magic are not mutually exclusive. Well, they usually are because of stupid writing, but they don't have to be. There's nothing stopping them from enchanting the guns, like making them fire lasers or mini-blackholes or something.
As for mages being more cost-effective, just spend the money on crafters/enchanters instead. Mass-produce easy-to-use magic tools, making even the simplest of peasants a walking avatar of destruction. No risk of losing trained personnel in combat, and peasants are cheaper. Just key the tools to only be useable by your faction, and retrieve them from your dead later.
As for mages being more cost-effective, just spend the money on crafters/enchanters instead. Mass-produce easy-to-use magic tools, making even the simplest of peasants a walking avatar of destruction. No risk of losing trained personnel in combat, and peasants are cheaper. Just key the tools to only be useable by your faction, and retrieve them from your dead later.
Fed-Kun's army
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2018
- Messages
- 892
@cor3zone "Tech and magic are not mutually exclusive. Well, they usually are because of stupid writing, but they don't have to be. There's nothing stopping them from enchanting the guns, like making them fire lasers or mini-blackholes or something."
If they could do this(like, creating beams of light and black holes with magic) then there would be no point in using the gun at all as a medium, they could simply do it on a whim. That's why yes magic and technology are mutually exclusive.
"As for mages being more cost-effective, just spend the money on crafters/enchanters instead. Mass-produce easy-to-use magic tools, making even the simplest of peasants a walking avatar of destruction. No risk of losing trained personnel in combat, and peasants are cheaper. Just key the tools to only be useable by your faction, and retrieve them from your dead later."
And that's the problem right here, it also falls on the same pitfall, if you can put magic on items to let peasants be walking weapons, than the mages who did it would be gods of destruction who could easily disenchant the same artifacts in the middle of the war and sabotage the enemy soldiers. The side with more natural mages would still have a big advantage.
That's the thing with magic. People think that magic would be better if you applied technology to it, but as a matter of fact magic is something that requires a formula(unless you're a sorcerer who can use magic as a super power of yours). If you start using calculations to make it better, then it makes no sense to add machines into the mix. There's literally no way to use "technology" to make magic "better", as soon as you put it into a machine you restrict it's use to certain specific functions. You could make a claim that you could make the use faster, but simply developing the magical formula would reach the exact same results. Because magic is not a set of tools that need to follow very specific engeneering to become physical parts you have to mount to execute a function. Magic is an energy and force you manipulate directly.
To begin with machines were made to allow us to do things our body can't do by itself, magic can do the same thing but directly. It's like mixing water with water, you don't get anything out of it but the same product. Technomagic would only be useful to help inferior mages reach the same level of achievements as a good mage, but if would involve so many processes that it would actually be inefficient and restrictive. To be successful the technomage would have to specialize, then he'd lose the maleability of raw magic.
Of course you can go the Mahouka way and simply use technology to transform the Staves into guns or something, but that wouldn't be considered technomagic, since mages still use their spells directly, they only use CADs to simplify the spell casting by inserting a part of the formula into cads. As the CADs there can take literally any form as long as they are engineered in a way that makes spell casting faster and easier.
The same way Tasuya built his CADs into guns to look cool, he could've made it into a staff, rod, or two wands. And actually, I still think a Staff would've been even better because it would take his ninjutsu into account for both shooting from afar and fighting at melee range. Maybe he could even use it's physical areas to defend against some attacks, something that the gun-like CADs cannot do.
But maybe two rods would be better for him? He could use them as Kali sticks and then turn them like one would use a gun and shoot his Gram Demolition from afar?
But even in Mahouka you see the same problem I just described above, where people need multiple cads to use all spells they can do because you can't use the same orders for all spells, while people using the old ways can simply use different spells on demand, althout a bit slower because they need to recite the spells directly, but they usually end up with stronger spells too. However looking at several explanations you'll see that this direct spellcasting formula can be trimmed down even without cads.
If they could do this(like, creating beams of light and black holes with magic) then there would be no point in using the gun at all as a medium, they could simply do it on a whim. That's why yes magic and technology are mutually exclusive.
"As for mages being more cost-effective, just spend the money on crafters/enchanters instead. Mass-produce easy-to-use magic tools, making even the simplest of peasants a walking avatar of destruction. No risk of losing trained personnel in combat, and peasants are cheaper. Just key the tools to only be useable by your faction, and retrieve them from your dead later."
And that's the problem right here, it also falls on the same pitfall, if you can put magic on items to let peasants be walking weapons, than the mages who did it would be gods of destruction who could easily disenchant the same artifacts in the middle of the war and sabotage the enemy soldiers. The side with more natural mages would still have a big advantage.
That's the thing with magic. People think that magic would be better if you applied technology to it, but as a matter of fact magic is something that requires a formula(unless you're a sorcerer who can use magic as a super power of yours). If you start using calculations to make it better, then it makes no sense to add machines into the mix. There's literally no way to use "technology" to make magic "better", as soon as you put it into a machine you restrict it's use to certain specific functions. You could make a claim that you could make the use faster, but simply developing the magical formula would reach the exact same results. Because magic is not a set of tools that need to follow very specific engeneering to become physical parts you have to mount to execute a function. Magic is an energy and force you manipulate directly.
To begin with machines were made to allow us to do things our body can't do by itself, magic can do the same thing but directly. It's like mixing water with water, you don't get anything out of it but the same product. Technomagic would only be useful to help inferior mages reach the same level of achievements as a good mage, but if would involve so many processes that it would actually be inefficient and restrictive. To be successful the technomage would have to specialize, then he'd lose the maleability of raw magic.
Of course you can go the Mahouka way and simply use technology to transform the Staves into guns or something, but that wouldn't be considered technomagic, since mages still use their spells directly, they only use CADs to simplify the spell casting by inserting a part of the formula into cads. As the CADs there can take literally any form as long as they are engineered in a way that makes spell casting faster and easier.
The same way Tasuya built his CADs into guns to look cool, he could've made it into a staff, rod, or two wands. And actually, I still think a Staff would've been even better because it would take his ninjutsu into account for both shooting from afar and fighting at melee range. Maybe he could even use it's physical areas to defend against some attacks, something that the gun-like CADs cannot do.
But maybe two rods would be better for him? He could use them as Kali sticks and then turn them like one would use a gun and shoot his Gram Demolition from afar?
But even in Mahouka you see the same problem I just described above, where people need multiple cads to use all spells they can do because you can't use the same orders for all spells, while people using the old ways can simply use different spells on demand, althout a bit slower because they need to recite the spells directly, but they usually end up with stronger spells too. However looking at several explanations you'll see that this direct spellcasting formula can be trimmed down even without cads.
@BloodySorcerer See, you're getting half-way to my point. If they can enchant, then of course they can cast it themselves. The point isn't to make magic "better", the point is to make non-mages capable of using magic. It's about getting the benefits of magic, at zero risk of losing your mage(s). It's like mages using cheap peasant as mediums, to remotely cast spells from the safety of home or wherever they happen to be. Think about it: directly using mages in combat runs the risk of losing decades of experience and study, using magic tools merely risks losing peasants and the tools themselves. Peasants are dirt-cheap and a renewable resource, while any magic tool can just be re-made. Higher initial investment cost, for lower upkeep down the line.
Also, given time and resources a single enchanter could outfit an army with magic equipment. Say each soldier gets items equal to 50% of the mage's power. An army of 1000 would then equal 500 mages in power, all coming from just the one mage. Only 10%? Still equals 100 mages. It just becomes a multiplier. So it even has the potential for making magic "better".
Also, given time and resources a single enchanter could outfit an army with magic equipment. Say each soldier gets items equal to 50% of the mage's power. An army of 1000 would then equal 500 mages in power, all coming from just the one mage. Only 10%? Still equals 100 mages. It just becomes a multiplier. So it even has the potential for making magic "better".
That is literally my entire point! Peasants are cheap, but no magic. Add magic guns: still cheap, but now has magic! Mages are fucking expensive. Besides, to them magic is technology. Anything we call 'magic' is really just tech/science we don't understand yet. They do understand it. Think like this: our distant ancestors would probably think what we're doing right now, having a conversation from across the world without even using our voices, is magic. Yet to us, it's just normal everyday technology.
Member
- Joined
- May 22, 2019
- Messages
- 59
How are guns the most effective weapons when a few chapters ago the MC and the witch were dropping a meteor shower on their foes?
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2018
- Messages
- 669
@MatthewSchroeder
Meteor showers = Big damage but slow
Guns = Single target but very fast
@ZinkiSS
Thanks!
Meteor showers = Big damage but slow
Guns = Single target but very fast
@ZinkiSS
Thanks!
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2019
- Messages
- 983
@BloodySorcerer @cor3zone
Sorry I had to step in, it's just want to share opinion.
Is the cor3zone topic is about 'spell-induced bullet' like in 'Naze Boku no Sekai wo Daremo Oboeteinai no ka?' or any other manga, though it's not entirely the same.
There's many knowledge about spellcasting and it's origin. Some of it evolved like mahouka.
While cor3zone idea are pretty legit, I think we need to see more the background of magic in this (manga) world.
Because from what I can tell so far, the magic in this world are not that old to do the chanting but not that modern to make 'spell-induced bullet' (or something-alike) that can be used without mana from it's user.
I knew my knowledge are shallow, but then again, allow me to share it. And correct me if I'm wrong.
Sorry I had to step in, it's just want to share opinion.
Is the cor3zone topic is about 'spell-induced bullet' like in 'Naze Boku no Sekai wo Daremo Oboeteinai no ka?' or any other manga, though it's not entirely the same.
There's many knowledge about spellcasting and it's origin. Some of it evolved like mahouka.
While cor3zone idea are pretty legit, I think we need to see more the background of magic in this (manga) world.
Because from what I can tell so far, the magic in this world are not that old to do the chanting but not that modern to make 'spell-induced bullet' (or something-alike) that can be used without mana from it's user.
Even in mahouka movie, Tatsuya also given 3 cartridge mag that each of it had a different spell. But he still need to charge it and amplified it with his own mana.
I knew my knowledge are shallow, but then again, allow me to share it. And correct me if I'm wrong.
@Akxera Of course, my idea was just that, an idea. Since we know very little about magic in this world, all we can do is ponder.🙂
Regardless, magic is technology to them, and the two are not inherently mutually exclusive. It's all up to the author. Maybe MC will make magic firearms, maybe enchanting is entirely impossible. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Regardless, magic is technology to them, and the two are not inherently mutually exclusive. It's all up to the author. Maybe MC will make magic firearms, maybe enchanting is entirely impossible. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fed-Kun's army
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2018
- Messages
- 892
@Akxera You're correct, in Mahouka to develop a fast way to chant spells they created the CADs. This works because they implement a series of words into a CAD, and make the CAD chant those words in fast succession, the mage only needs to supplement the system with their mana control and think on the spell structure while the CAD does the annoying job of chanting. However, because of that they can only use spells which make use of those words.
To use any other word they need to either change the CAD or change the CAD's "magazine"(depending on model). Which is why in the series itself Tatsuya recognizes the limitations of the current system and tells Mikihito that his old methods still have a place nowadays because they allow for techniques that the new methods can never replicate. Yes the old methods are slower but allow for the free structuring of spells, countermeasures against spell reading, and even more power because there won't be any limitations in how many words you can use in your chanting. The new methods are only convenient and fast.
To summarize things, CADs only serve to save time in spellcasting and nothing else. However this saved time come at the cost of freedom, and you cannot use it to allow non mages to use magic or magical effects. So they are not good for this example.
It would have to work like D&D's enchanted arrows, where mages enchant bullets one by one, it costs a fortune to do so and comes at a severe cost to the mage's health. That's why I said it wasn't a good alternative, only a minority would be able to use those bullets, which wouldn't make that much of a difference on the battlefield, and without mages in good health the army would lose their artillery and tactical weaponry. The idea itself is decent though, however there is also this problem, what good would an army with enchanted guns do against a being that can use higher magic and can create black holes directly, at the same time they create defensive spells to protect against enemy attacks? The enchanted weapons cannot replicate this bacause each bullet comes with it's own effect, and you'd have to predict the future to be able to bring the right bullets because the ones using them don't really understand the process behind those bullets they only use them. So the side with more mages would still make more of a difference than the one with more enchanted weapons and soldiers, also the quality of the mages would also be an extremely important factor, an Archmage is worth dozens of normal mages.
That's the beauty of magic, being able to counter the only thing that had no "enemy" when it comes to military tactics, which is numbers. In a world with magic, numbers can be realistically countered by quality.
To use any other word they need to either change the CAD or change the CAD's "magazine"(depending on model). Which is why in the series itself Tatsuya recognizes the limitations of the current system and tells Mikihito that his old methods still have a place nowadays because they allow for techniques that the new methods can never replicate. Yes the old methods are slower but allow for the free structuring of spells, countermeasures against spell reading, and even more power because there won't be any limitations in how many words you can use in your chanting. The new methods are only convenient and fast.
To summarize things, CADs only serve to save time in spellcasting and nothing else. However this saved time come at the cost of freedom, and you cannot use it to allow non mages to use magic or magical effects. So they are not good for this example.
It would have to work like D&D's enchanted arrows, where mages enchant bullets one by one, it costs a fortune to do so and comes at a severe cost to the mage's health. That's why I said it wasn't a good alternative, only a minority would be able to use those bullets, which wouldn't make that much of a difference on the battlefield, and without mages in good health the army would lose their artillery and tactical weaponry. The idea itself is decent though, however there is also this problem, what good would an army with enchanted guns do against a being that can use higher magic and can create black holes directly, at the same time they create defensive spells to protect against enemy attacks? The enchanted weapons cannot replicate this bacause each bullet comes with it's own effect, and you'd have to predict the future to be able to bring the right bullets because the ones using them don't really understand the process behind those bullets they only use them. So the side with more mages would still make more of a difference than the one with more enchanted weapons and soldiers, also the quality of the mages would also be an extremely important factor, an Archmage is worth dozens of normal mages.
That's the beauty of magic, being able to counter the only thing that had no "enemy" when it comes to military tactics, which is numbers. In a world with magic, numbers can be realistically countered by quality.
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2019
- Messages
- 983
@cor3zone yeah, and that's what us will be always. To wonder whenever magic become a subject. (๑´ω`๑)
@BloodySorcerer True. So far I've encountered many form of chanting and I believe the progress are like this.
Manual casting > semi-manual casting > embedded casting > instant casting > without casting (like elemental spirit or inhumane magic force)
With each of them have an unlimited branch that will bring us to many chances exploiting magic system.
Afterall, many Japanese amateur author is likely touched only in the surface without exploring further about magic itself. Either they gain it from another manga or if they're lucky, maybe they found a source to study it or a 'friend' who knew magic in more universal way rather than Jp term. We can see the difference.
Anyway, thank you for letting me butted in. It's really fun and refreshing. 😂👍
@BloodySorcerer True. So far I've encountered many form of chanting and I believe the progress are like this.
Manual casting > semi-manual casting > embedded casting > instant casting > without casting (like elemental spirit or inhumane magic force)
With each of them have an unlimited branch that will bring us to many chances exploiting magic system.
Afterall, many Japanese amateur author is likely touched only in the surface without exploring further about magic itself. Either they gain it from another manga or if they're lucky, maybe they found a source to study it or a 'friend' who knew magic in more universal way rather than Jp term. We can see the difference.
Anyway, thank you for letting me butted in. It's really fun and refreshing. 😂👍
Similar threads
