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Maou no Ore ga Dorei Elf wo Yome ni Shitanda ga, Dou Medereba ii? - Vol. 2 Ch. 7 - The Quiet Ones are Devastatingly Terrifying when Angry 3
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@Qelix
I always thought that being nice, being moral, and being reasonable/rational is three different, separate, unrelated things.
Mafia can be VERY nice, but not moral, and being reasonable is optional
Someone socially awkward can be not quite nice, yet moral, reasonable is also optional
HRD staff is always reasonable, being moral and nice is optional
So on and so forth...
Zagan is not very nice, not quite moral, but VERY reasonable and logical. Being evil is simply not worth his time.
I always thought that being nice, being moral, and being reasonable/rational is three different, separate, unrelated things.
Mafia can be VERY nice, but not moral, and being reasonable is optional
Someone socially awkward can be not quite nice, yet moral, reasonable is also optional
HRD staff is always reasonable, being moral and nice is optional
So on and so forth...
Zagan is not very nice, not quite moral, but VERY reasonable and logical. Being evil is simply not worth his time.
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@usernameistaken If you're not sure, then put it in the spoiler. Otherwise you'd be spoiling some details, like you just did.
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@Red225 :
"Zagan's moral backing is really superior to that nameless girl who he saved; the girl's words are meaningless. It doesn't matter if it is right or not for the weak to survive; the universe is not fair and does not care whether one is weak or not and there is no moral or ethical argument that will stop the vast majority of catastrophes that may befall a person. Being strong is something needs to do to survive, and that's all there is to it. Whether that be to have strength by joining with a group, paying dues to a government for protection, or have money or have talent or be so kind that others will spring to your aid. To bemoan other's strength is a sign that you have given up on protecting yourself."
First, I want to precise that when I talk to weak, strong and strength I talk about "the skills to protect yourself alone in any situation" It's the same meaning that Zagan and the nameless girl use when they talk about weak, strong and strength. So a tetraplegic being protected by the society (whatever the reason for it) isn't strong: it's a weak being protected.
With that said, there is a flaw in your post because you switch from the definition above (that you use for the first 2 and the last sentences) with another definition of strength which is: "how someone can protect himself" (which in this definition makes our tetraplegic's example as strong as the society want to protect him).
With Zagan definition, if you join a group to protect you, you gave up on protecting yourself (to an extent).
But by not having to rely on strength to survive, one can get more skills which would benefit the group more (specialization principle).
And in this regard, I think at the contrary that more often than not, the girl is right.
Moral and ethics are subjective so, in a vacuum, nothing is right or wrong. But what the girl ask isn't: "Is killing the weak a universal good ?" but more like "Is killing the weak a good thing for what you want ?".
At the first question, the answer is like you said: it doesn't matter. But at the second, the answer will tend toward: no, killing the weak isn't a good thing.
Because letting the weak live helps society better by allowing specializations in other fields than war, by allowing skill diversity and by facilitating socialisation between people.
In return, this "protection of the weak" helps groups to be formed, which upgrade the quality of life and develop communities stronger than the sum of their people.
So if you want to socialize with people, if you want an easier life or if you want to be safer it's often better to protect the weak for you (and to be protected by stronger people or group than you).
This doesn't negate what Zagan says, and doesn't prove him wrong: Zagan is a loner that want to live alone so for him being strong is the most important because his protection and life quality depend on it.
"Zagan's moral backing is really superior to that nameless girl who he saved; the girl's words are meaningless. It doesn't matter if it is right or not for the weak to survive; the universe is not fair and does not care whether one is weak or not and there is no moral or ethical argument that will stop the vast majority of catastrophes that may befall a person. Being strong is something needs to do to survive, and that's all there is to it. Whether that be to have strength by joining with a group, paying dues to a government for protection, or have money or have talent or be so kind that others will spring to your aid. To bemoan other's strength is a sign that you have given up on protecting yourself."
First, I want to precise that when I talk to weak, strong and strength I talk about "the skills to protect yourself alone in any situation" It's the same meaning that Zagan and the nameless girl use when they talk about weak, strong and strength. So a tetraplegic being protected by the society (whatever the reason for it) isn't strong: it's a weak being protected.
With that said, there is a flaw in your post because you switch from the definition above (that you use for the first 2 and the last sentences) with another definition of strength which is: "how someone can protect himself" (which in this definition makes our tetraplegic's example as strong as the society want to protect him).
With Zagan definition, if you join a group to protect you, you gave up on protecting yourself (to an extent).
But by not having to rely on strength to survive, one can get more skills which would benefit the group more (specialization principle).
And in this regard, I think at the contrary that more often than not, the girl is right.
Moral and ethics are subjective so, in a vacuum, nothing is right or wrong. But what the girl ask isn't: "Is killing the weak a universal good ?" but more like "Is killing the weak a good thing for what you want ?".
At the first question, the answer is like you said: it doesn't matter. But at the second, the answer will tend toward: no, killing the weak isn't a good thing.
Because letting the weak live helps society better by allowing specializations in other fields than war, by allowing skill diversity and by facilitating socialisation between people.
In return, this "protection of the weak" helps groups to be formed, which upgrade the quality of life and develop communities stronger than the sum of their people.
So if you want to socialize with people, if you want an easier life or if you want to be safer it's often better to protect the weak for you (and to be protected by stronger people or group than you).
This doesn't negate what Zagan says, and doesn't prove him wrong: Zagan is a loner that want to live alone so for him being strong is the most important because his protection and life quality depend on it.
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@Red225: I wholeheartedly agree (on kindness also being a form of strength).
@AdamKnight: I thought about his "kindness is poison" stance more like a general attack on the concept of altruistic kindness. That said, I really don't want to discuss, if altruistic kindness really exists (We could as well discuss the existence of God. Nobody will be happy afterwards.). But it does have an undeniable, positive impact on society.
@monkey123: I do love to bla. ? And I concur. When my life is threatened, I want to save myself. A wish a share with the mindless mass in panic. God knows what I would do. But imaging that: You're a passenger aboard the Titanic 2 on a space cruise and you had that nice chat with this person over a plate of Klingon gagh. You agree, that fresh, wriggling gagh is the best. A few hours later the Titanic 2 (who names a ship, this way?), while in orbit of an ocean world (space ocean), gets his be a comet fragment (space iceberg). The engines fail and the new irregular orbit let's the ship enter the upper atmosphere periodically. The orbit decreases each time and soon the ship will drop out of orbit and crash (space sinking). You head to the lifepods (space lifeboats. Okay, I stop now.), but , who would have guessed, there aren't enough. On the way there you get trampled down, by this rude guy. When you arrive, there are only two seats left in that lifepod and in front of you there are two other persons. The rude guy and the gagh guy. As fate has it, you also are in possession of a taser and you can take down one guy by surprise. Whom do you chose? See? Being nice has its merits. XD
In real life I try to keep smiling until some rude person comes along. And if they mess with me, I make certain, that they exactly meant it this way and didn't just have a bad day or something. And if they really wanted to piss me off, I let them taste hell. Everyone should do that. It's a healthy way of living and I do recommend it.
@AdamKnight: I thought about his "kindness is poison" stance more like a general attack on the concept of altruistic kindness. That said, I really don't want to discuss, if altruistic kindness really exists (We could as well discuss the existence of God. Nobody will be happy afterwards.). But it does have an undeniable, positive impact on society.
@monkey123: I do love to bla. ? And I concur. When my life is threatened, I want to save myself. A wish a share with the mindless mass in panic. God knows what I would do. But imaging that: You're a passenger aboard the Titanic 2 on a space cruise and you had that nice chat with this person over a plate of Klingon gagh. You agree, that fresh, wriggling gagh is the best. A few hours later the Titanic 2 (who names a ship, this way?), while in orbit of an ocean world (space ocean), gets his be a comet fragment (space iceberg). The engines fail and the new irregular orbit let's the ship enter the upper atmosphere periodically. The orbit decreases each time and soon the ship will drop out of orbit and crash (space sinking). You head to the lifepods (space lifeboats. Okay, I stop now.), but , who would have guessed, there aren't enough. On the way there you get trampled down, by this rude guy. When you arrive, there are only two seats left in that lifepod and in front of you there are two other persons. The rude guy and the gagh guy. As fate has it, you also are in possession of a taser and you can take down one guy by surprise. Whom do you chose? See? Being nice has its merits. XD
In real life I try to keep smiling until some rude person comes along. And if they mess with me, I make certain, that they exactly meant it this way and didn't just have a bad day or something. And if they really wanted to piss me off, I let them taste hell. Everyone should do that. It's a healthy way of living and I do recommend it.
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