Merge "Shoujo Ai" tag with "Yuri" :planned:

[igenetycs]

@Teasday Ah, I must've missed that. Glad to hear that there are still plans to revisit it down the line.

 

[Sabruness]

I havent actually read through this whole thread, just the last few responses but as a yuri reader, i'd like to toss my few cents in on the topic:

Once the aforementioned full site rewrite is eventually complete, i would very much support a singular "Girl's Love" tag for Mangadex for several reasons:
1. Functionality wise - It would make it so much easier to search for all yuri/GL at once than having to fiddle through two tags as is current.

2. Terminology wise - I'm sure this has probably been expressed a few times previously but there is a long standing issue with the confected term "shoujo ai" which, while the common english language thought is "light yuri without sexual themes" is vastly different from the meaning of the term in Japanese which carries much darker and more inappropriate pedophilic connotations. A similar problem occurs with the Boy's Love counterpart "shounen ai". A move to the more appropriate and "modern" Girl's/Boy's Love tags would, in my opinion, be a very good move as it would allow the shedding of those two particular potential landmines.

All this, of course, should be dependent on the full site rewrite being completed first as the previous staff posts have made it clear that it would be practically infeasible to make the tag changes with the way the current Mangadex system is built.

TL;DR:
switch to singular Girl's Love tag is good but should be put on hold until full site rewrite is done first.

 

[GoggledAnon]

Alternatively, if you're too worried about alienating that fanbase who's still dedicated to the ai, we could always call upon our good old friend, the ampersand, and go with "Yuri & Shoujo-ai" and "Yaoi & Shounen-ai".

 

[P0ck]

To anyone who argues that shoujo ai is a thing.

Here are kanji: 少女愛. Google it, and, if you manage to find counter-examples to my points below, you're welcome to try and argue.

There's no publisher that uses it (they use Girls' Love or Yuri exclusively). There are no pixiv artists who use the tag except for some western ones. It's just not a thing in Japan outside the lolicon content which I don't care to research.

The whole shoujo-ai tag is just a weird fan-only thing that doesn't even do anything to differentiate content.

There were some examples earlier why yuri/shoujo-ai tags don't work, but I'll add some more. I'll hide them under the spoiler as the list is rather lengthy.

Spoiler

https://mangadex.org/title/30209/yuri-moyou - has a lesbian couple that regularly have sex off-screen, tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/24924/hana-ni-arashi - has a lesbian couple in a relationship, tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/19723/futaribeya - has a lesbian side-couple and the main lesbian couple in an open relationship , tagged shoujo-ai
https://mangadex.org/title/26432/onee-san-wa-joshi-shougakusei-ni-kyoumi-ga-arimasu - probably the only thing that'd qualify as shoujo-ai, but not under mangadex's definition.
https://mangadex.org/title/21974/adachi-to-shimamura - has one of the main characters realize romantic feelings, tagged as shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/34200/sunami-yuuko-to-yuri-na-hitobito - 0 zero straight girls in sight, 0 males in sight, still a shoujo-ai, apparently.
https://mangadex.org/title/28794/useless-princesses - there are several characters struggling with defining romantic feelings, tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/38132/ikenai-otona - a girl tries to make a woman fall in love with her, tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/31353/still-sick - mutual feelings spiced with romantic drama... tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/19729/cheerful-amnesia - tagged both, for little reason.
https://mangadex.org/title/17433/happy-sugar-life - anime adaptation largely promoted as a yuri title, yet tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/22415/shouraiteki-ni-shinde-kure - main character is an open lesbian, tagged shoujo-ai.
https://mangadex.org/title/23491/mirai-no-fu-fu-desu-kedo - the opening pages state the manga is about their start of relationship, tagged shoujo-ai.

On and on it goes.

The yuri/shoujo-ai tag separation doesn't even help readers to avoid reading yuri because multiple titles are tagged both, making the tags pointless! This is just a big mess that's not getting fixed.

 

[shouldsleep]

@P0ck

There were some examples earlier why yuri/shoujo-ai tags don't work, but I'll add some more. I'll hide them under the spoiler as the list is rather lengthy.

I'm going to point out that tagging does not work the way you think.

1. The point of the tags is to denote content, not specify focus. For instance, the animal tag involves series like Gokushufudou, which does not even remotely focus on animals.

2. Tags doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. A title could be both shoujo-ai and yuri, in the same way another one could be both isekai and fantasy.

The MD's description of shoujo-ai is the emotional aspect of F/F relationships. Arguably that's hard to quantify, but that's a different matter altogether than saying x relationship isn't shoujo ai but is yuri.

 

[P0ck]

I'm seeing the notion that the tags are used for separating content, and I'm responding to it. Personally, I hate the tag for its lack of clarity and not making any sense, I don't want it to exist, and it just needlessly obfuscates the search for me.

Now then, why is Mangadex running on AnimePlanet's interpretation of made-up division between a made-up term and a term used by every notable entity? That's the most non-informative way of separating yuri when you could just put a romance/drama tag and be done with it.

 

[Itsn]

FWIW I've never really understood the difference since people tag inconsistently, and it makes searching way more inconvenient; You can't search both tags, since if it has one but not the other you'll miss out on those, and if you only put in one you'll miss out on the other.

 

[Samhill]

@P0ck

To anyone who argues that shoujo ai is a thing.

You do know what anime is in Japan, right?

 

[GoggledAnon]

@Samhill

You do know what anime is in Japan, right?

A thing. Unlike shoujo-ai.

But in all seriousness, I know that "anime" refers to all kinds of animation, but just like the other tags, you can use additional words to describe the various types (eg. "nihon no anime", "amerika kara anime", "ero anime" etc.).

 

[P0ck]

Oh, anime.

Anime is an umbrella term in Japan, and in West refers to Japanese animation... except not really. There are Korean anime and Chinese anime. The distinction that is made between Western cartoons and Japanese anime is also an example of Western anime culture being weird, but that's a topic for another day.

Anyway. Japan took the word from another language and used it as intended. Shoujo-ai tag supporters use a non-existent concept and try to argue that a thoughtless change of a word in shounen-ai by people who didn't know the language properly is somehow legit. Thanks for giving me some nice argument to use.

 

[shouldsleep]

@Itsn

You can't search both tags, since if it has one but not the other you'll miss out on those, and if you only put in one you'll miss out on the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the "or" function in manga search exists for this.

@P0ck

I'm seeing the notion that the tags are used for separating content, and I'm responding to it. Personally, I hate the tag for its lack of clarity and not making any sense, I don't want it to exist, and it just needlessly obfuscates the search for me.

Now then, why is Mangadex running on AnimePlanet's interpretation of made-up division between a made-up term and a term used by every notable entity? That's the most non-informative way of separating yuri when you could just put a romance/drama tag and be done with it.

I don't believe in the notion that tags are used to separate content. They're used to denote the existence of the themes they represent in the work they're placed in.

The "made up term" is also a false argument. Every word is a created or borrowed entity and the ones to judge it are its users, Also, inversely "mark it with romance" isn't helpful in the same way that when you don't want F/F relationship when you search for romance titles, it will include them.

 

[Teasday]

_{@P0ck posted:}

Anyway. Japan took the word from another language and used it as intended. Shoujo-ai tag supporters use a non-existent concept and try to argue that a thoughtless change of a word in shounen-ai by people who didn't know the language properly is somehow legit. Thanks for giving me some nice argument to use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wasei-eigo

 

[P0ck]

Irrelevant to the example at hand.

 

[GoggledAnon]

@shouldsleep

I don't believe in the notion that tags are used to separate content. They're used to denote the existence of the themes they represent in the work they're placed in.

The problem is there are two seperate tags for one theme: homosexual relations between two (or more) females. Let's ignore the go-to excuse here about word meanings and just pretend for a moment that every tag on this site was in plain English, no Japanese at all be it original usage or loan word. Hentai would be Porn, Ecchi would be Nudity, Isekai would be Parallel World etc. So if Yuri = Lesbian, then what exactly would Shoujo-Ai translate to? Not So Lesbian? Kinda Lesbian? Only Slightly Lesbian? Pretty much any example I can think of would still contain the word "lesbian".

If the main issue is that you don't want to read certain tagged content when searching through other tags, then maybe consider making a suggestion for tags to be visible during search results, whether it be as part of this site rewrite or sometime afterwards when it's less hectic.

Spoiler

And let's not be smart Alecs and point out there's both "violence" and "sexual violence", because anyone who's ever seen sexual violence knows there needs to be a distinction on that front.

 

[Teasday]

@P0ck Not at all, unless you're arguing that wasei-eigo is bad too and the Japanese (or people speaking any other languages for that matter) shouldn't be using misunderstood loan terms either simply because they're not accurate to the source language. If so, I doubt I could do anything to change your mind, and if not, you have a double standard.

 

[GoggledAnon]

@Teasday It's irrelevant because the main issue is why we need two seperate tags for lesbian-themed manga on a site where you have a whole different set of tags for describing the level of content.

 

[shouldsleep]

@GoggledAnon the tags state their purpose in that Shoujo Ai is for emotional side (the romance part of lesbian relationship) vs Yuri's sexual (the smut side). As long as that is consistent, then the tags are fine on my book. Why they couldn't be merged is the same reason why romance and smut can't be merged (because duh). Arguably yuri could fit the smut category. However, the problem with that is that you might want to search for smut but want 0% lesbian stuff in it (assuming non-romantic lesbian stuff exists, which I assume they do).

It's irrelevant because the main issue is why we need two seperate tags for lesbian-themed manga on a site where you have a whole different set of tags for describing the level of content.

It is relevant on the basis that @P0ck deems it as improper loaning of Japanese words when in reality, the inverse happens but they think only the reverse is relevant.

 

[P0ck]

It's irrelevant because the argument "they do it, too," is childish, at best.

But if you do want my opinion on wasei-eigo, then yeah, it's dumb and shouldn't exist either.

I don't believe in the notion that tags are used to separate content. They're used to denote the existence of the themes they represent in the work they're placed in.

The "made up term" is also a false argument. Every word is a created or borrowed entity and the ones to judge it are its users, Also, inversely "mark it with romance" isn't helpful in the same way that when you don't want F/F relationship when you search for romance titles, it will include them.

You may not believe, but in this very thread this exists.

Spoiler

I know people who are ok with shoujo-ai and shounen-ai, but doesn't like yuri or yaoi (actual some people just don't like any smut/explicit content for that matter). Nothing wrong with wanting to read just some light fluffy girls or boys love stories instead of all that fucking and fornicating. And seriously what's confusing about these genre? Shoujo-ai/shounen-ai = girls/boys love with no smut. Yuri/yaoi = girls/boys love with smut, R-18.

I have certain tags permanently excluded, and it doesn't interfere with my search for other genres. As for the creation of the made-up term, it's not created by using English, it's not borrowed from Japanese by using the existing concept. "Shoujo-ai" has no reason to exist other than people refusing to listen to reason.

 

[BestBoy]

This really all just seems like language prescriptivism, and other people whining about tags being used in ways they don't like. If you think a tag has been added erroneously, report it and a mod will fix it if it was.

 

[GoggledAnon]

@shouldsleep

Why they couldn't be merged is the same reason why romance and smut can't be merged (because duh). Arguably yuri could fit the smut category.

The fact that Romance and Smut are seperate things means there's no point in having seperate tags for Shoujo-Ai and Yuri. Romantic girls' love is Yuri + Romance, smutty girls' love is Yuri + Smut. You can even have smutty romantic girl's love.

However, the problem with that is that you might want to search for smut but want 0% lesbian stuff in it (assuming non-romantic lesbian stuff exists, which I assume they do).

That is literally already a thing you can do in the current search engine.

Turns out you can pick multiple tags for include/exclude section. It's just confusing cos it's presented as a dropdown menu rather than a checkbox.