NEET dakedo Hello Work ni Ittara Isekai ni Tsuretekareta - Ch. 54

[Miserys_End]

...

Hard to find such a simple action ridiculous when they are literally using reality altering spells and skills that induce automated body actions.

 

[Miserys_End]

@AnotherDuck and @definitionofinsanity as @Miserys_End effectively said (or implied) it is less about physics.

[Snip]

So, no, on this Earth, that wouldn't happen. That isn't this Earth.

Actually I would bet few people could draw a sword from their hip against all the leverage that that old man represents without changing their position or stance.

Granted there is much to say about the stupidity of maintaining such a position, but momentarily stopping an individual from drawing a sword in such a manner is definitely within the realm of real world physics.

BUT none of that really matters. This IS a fantasy setting where real world physics is broken on the regular and to nitpick something so irrelevant is just silly.

 

[definitionofinsanity]

@AnotherDuck and @definitionofinsanity as @Miserys_End effectively said (or implied) it is less about physics. A "super strong" person would be incapable of lifting something heavier than themselves by "pulling down" with a simple "pulley system" (e.g. the Incredibles) because it wouldn't lift the heavier object but the person themselves. Additionally a "super strong" person wouldn't be able to lift an incredible mass that is spread out (e.g. Super Man pushing the moon or lifting the equivalent of a city), they would effectively "bore" through it.
No, it isn't about physics. Not (our) Earth physics anyway. It's about overwhelming strength. Obviously magic exists in this world, and that literally changes physics. It adds force(s) we can only speculate about.

If I put enough force on the hilt of your sword to keep in your scabbard with my raw strength, you're going to feel me doing that. In fact, I'm going to be putting enough torque on you to twist around your sword belt and/or you.

As it stands now, this is the equivalent of me putting my pinky finger on your big toe and that somehow preventing you from lifting your foot/leg to kick with and not even realizing it. When, in reality, in order to hold your foot into place like that I'm going to be crushing the shit out of your big toe to do it. You'd know about it.

 

[Aricitic]

If I put enough force on the hilt of your sword to keep in your scabbard with my raw strength, you're going to feel me doing that. In fact, I'm going to be putting enough torque on you to twist around your sword belt and/or you.

As it stands now, this is the equivalent of me putting my pinky finger on your big toe and that somehow preventing you from lifting your foot/leg to kick with and not even realizing it. When, in reality, in order to hold your foot into place like that I'm going to be crushing the shit out of your big toe to do it. You'd know about it.

Firstly, and again, magic.
Secondly, it wouldn't require putting force directly on the sword's hilt to prevent it from being drawn. Simply put an object in a position such that by attempting to draw the sword it would be blocked. Then apply force as needed.
In other words, hold your arm as absolutely still as possible, preventing any movement inward.

And, again, I make no claim that this would be possible on this Earth. Realistically, you cannot make a claim that it would be impossible on another world in another universe, especially when it has been irrefutably proven that physics are different there.
Ultimately any argument that you try to make using known physics does not apply... because: magic.

 

[Miserys_End]

If I put enough force on the hilt of your sword to keep in your scabbard with my raw strength, you're going to feel me doing that. In fact, I'm going to be putting enough torque on you to twist around your sword belt and/or you.

TBH you're just admitting you lack the control to accomplish the action as shown in the manga, not proving an individual would be incapable of accomplishing the action. OTOH I doubt you're an accomplished martial artist let alone a Sword Saint from a fantasy world either so... yeah.

As it stands now, this is the equivalent of me putting my pinky finger on your big toe and that somehow preventing you from lifting your foot/leg to kick with and not even realizing it. When, in reality, in order to hold your foot into place like that I'm going to be crushing the shit out of your big toe to do it. You'd know about it.

But we are not comparing two grown ass adults here. If an adult held down a toddler's big toe with their pinky, at best that toddler is only pulling their toe from under the adults finger. And again, your example mainly highlights your utter lack of control and ability to regulate your strength. Or at least what you perceive your strength and control to be...

 

[Grikath]

Ah... Training Arc and Bullshido. Always a good sign.....

 

[definitionofinsanity]

Firstly, and again, magic.
Secondly, it wouldn't require putting force directly on the sword's hilt to prevent it from being drawn. Simply put an object in a position such that by attempting to draw the sword it would be blocked. Then apply force as needed.
In other words, hold your arm as absolutely still as possible, preventing any movement inward.

That wouldn't work, either, because you wouldn't have any idea how much pressure is going to be exerted and when at the time that the swordsman goes to draw. And they'd just knock your scabbard out of the way or you'd torque their swordbelt around.

Doesn't work that way.

 

[definitionofinsanity]

TBH you're just admitting you lack the control to accomplish the action as shown in the manga, not proving an individual would be incapable of accomplishing the action. OTOH I doubt you're an accomplished martial artist let alone a Sword Saint from a fantasy world either so... yeah.

But we are not comparing two grown ass adults here. If an adult held down a toddler's big toe with their pinky, at best that toddler is only pulling their toe from under the adults finger. And again, your example mainly highlights your utter lack of control and ability to regulate your strength. Or at least what you perceive your strength and control to be...

That was cringeful to read.

 

[Miserys_End]

That was cringeful to read.

And your latest addition to this conversation is just disappointing. Rather then trying to write a better argument, you resort to petty insults. Cheers.

 

[definitionofinsanity]

And your latest addition to this conversation is just disappointing. Rather then trying to write a better argument, you resort to petty insults. Cheers.

...Wait, what? You were being serious? I just thought that was a meme post and your attempt at humor and gave it the benefit of the doubt that it was that. But... the fact that you're seemingly an adult and actually legitimately saying things like, "well, you aren't a sword saint" and wanted to be taken seriously...

I, uh... wish you the best.

 

[Aricitic]

That wouldn't work, either, because you wouldn't have any idea how much pressure is going to be exerted and when at the time that the swordsman goes to draw. And they'd just knock your scabbard out of the way or you'd torque their swordbelt around.

Doesn't work that way.

I really don't see any reason to continue this argument beyond this final comment, but I will comment one final time.
Basically you are arguing that a wall simply existing wouldn't hold enough force to block some form of movement. This argument is proven wrong with real world physics.

And EVEN THEN your argument is nonsensical because the world where the events you are arguing against contains magic. Literally any argument you could possibly make with real world physics is pointless, useless and a waste of time because of: "magic".

I could go on a trip if saying "well then explain [event using literal magic]" for every event in the manga, but I really just don't feel like it. Your argument is flawed on a fundamental basis, period, full stop, irrevocably. It's nonsense. Nothing you try to explain, rationally, has any bearing on events in that world...

No... You know what, "f" it.... Go ahead. If you are so understanding of the physics of their world, go ahead and explain the events of page 13 without using any logic that directly counters the logic you have used for your previous arguments.
I'll wait, and I will respond to whatever rational you use.

 

[Miserys_End]

...Wait, what? You were being serious? I just thought that was a meme post and your attempt at humor and gave it the benefit of the doubt that it was that. But... the fact that you're seemingly an adult and actually legitimately saying things like, "well, you aren't a sword saint" and wanted to be taken seriously...

I, uh... wish you the best.

Nah kid, I hold no illusion you are anything but an idiot with a keyboard. And while it might shock you to learn, there are some rather amazing people here on earth who could pull something like preventing a sword being drawn from a scabbard in much the same manner.

And before you go off on how you lack the control or ability to do so, no one here is under the delusion that the old man would be able to maintain the status quo once the young swordmen started moving again.

It was a surprise maneuver to distract and unnerve the young man. Much like the more common trope of stopping a blade just before touching someone's neck.

 

[definitionofinsanity]

I really don't see any reason to continue this argument beyond this final comment, but I will comment one final time.
Basically you are arguing that a wall simply existing wouldn't hold enough force to block some form of movement. This argument is proven wrong with real world physics.

Nope. Not what I was arguing at all whatso-fucking-ever.

And EVEN THEN your argument is nonsensical because the world where the events you are arguing against contains magic. Literally any argument you could possibly make with real world physics is pointless, useless and a waste of time because of: "magic".

I could go on a trip if saying "well then explain [event using literal magic]" for every event in the manga, but I really just don't feel like it. Your argument is flawed on a fundamental basis, period, full stop, irrevocably. It's nonsense. Nothing you try to explain, rationally, has any bearing on events in that world...

1.) "A wizard did it" is shit-tier logical argumentation. If that's where you want to go and do the low-effort standard Magic Handwavium™ shit, it's not even worth discussing since you could just say, "well, it's magic" and leave at that as an ironcladed answer. That's about as interesting to me as shoving my head into a pot of boiling lead, however. As it probably is for most people. Even in high magic settings, "magic did it" is just god damn lazy. I'm sorry if you don't like hearing that.

2.) Your argument is also misguided because it wasn't just "muh majik" that was being emphasized in recent chapters. Do you not recall the big fucking deal that Vogt and Lazard made over Masaru's strength and it being ridiculous. Even in this fucking chapter what is grandpa here going on and on about? He does NOT talk about Masaru's magical capabilities directly whatsoever (and, no, the part where he's talking about the spell he's about to use doesn't apply). He references his skills/abilities and how they are "inhuman." Because they are. He just keeps dumping skillpoints into skills and abilities without actually learning them like these guys have and he's done it to a super-human level.

You keep going on and on about fucking magic physics and shit when you missed the fucking point. He's not going to there to learn "magic physics," he's going there to train as a fucking super-human swordsman.

No... You know what, "f" it.... Go ahead. If you are so understanding of the physics of their world, go ahead and explain the events of page 13 without using any logic that directly counters the logic you have used for your previous arguments.
I'll wait, and I will respond to whatever rational you use.

Honestly? I wish you didn't. Because if I have to explain bullshit things are done to look cool in manga and you are taking this shit way too seriously and at face value instead of just chuckling and sighing at something dumb being done for the sake of visuals... this is even more of a lost cause than I originally thought.

As much as you aren't interested in that shit-tier discussion? I'm really, REALLY fucking not interested. My time would be better spent, I dunno, getting tortured by Quwwatul Amn al-Khasah officers in a a joint Yemeni/CIA blacksite.

I had enough of that dogshit back in 2002 internet forums to last a lifetime. You can do it. Count me out.

 

[Aricitic]

Nope. Not what I was arguing at all whatso-fucking-ever.



1.) "A wizard did it" is shit-tier logical argumentation. If that's where you want to go and do the low-effort standard Magic Handwavium™ shit, it's not even worth discussing since you could just say, "well, it's magic" and leave at that as an ironcladed answer. That's about as interesting to me as shoving my head into a pot of boiling lead, however. As it probably is for most people. Even in high magic settings, "magic did it" is just god damn lazy. I'm sorry if you don't like hearing that.

2.) Your argument is also misguided because it wasn't just "muh majik" that was being emphasized in recent chapters. Do you not recall the big fucking deal that Vogt and Lazard made over Masaru's strength and it being ridiculous. Even in this fucking chapter what is grandpa here going on and on about? He does NOT talk about Masaru's magical capabilities directly whatsoever (and, no, the part where he's talking about the spell he's about to use doesn't apply). He references his skills/abilities and how they are "inhuman." Because they are. He just keeps dumping skillpoints into skills and abilities without actually learning them like these guys have and he's done it to a super-human level.

You keep going on and on about fucking magic physics and shit when you missed the fucking point. He's not going to there to learn "magic physics," he's going there to train as a fucking super-human swordsman.



Honestly? I wish you didn't. Because if I have to explain bullshit things are done to look cool in manga and you are taking this shit way too seriously and at face value instead of just chuckling and sighing at something dumb being done for the sake of visuals... this is even more of a lost cause than I originally thought.

As much as you aren't interested in that shit-tier discussion? I'm really, REALLY fucking not interested. My time would be better spent, I dunno, getting tortured by Quwwatul Amn al-Khasah officers in a a joint Yemeni/CIA blacksite.

I had enough of that dogshit back in 2002 internet forums to last a lifetime. You can do it. Count me out.

Last post.
My argument about "it's magic" is absolutely valid.
Your argument that it's absurd to argue that is irrelevant.
You brought up "skills". I hate to break it to you but the "skills" of this manga's world ARE magic. This is irrefutable. Our Earth does not contain anything like skills that you "add points" to. The assistance that these skills give are pure magic. Yes, learning to use them requires practice, but that doesn't diminish the fact that they assist those who allocate points into them, and that is nothing if not magic.
Hell, their "inhuman" strength that allows them to do things beyond what humans can do on this Earth is a physical application of magic plain and simple.

You don't want to argue this? Then why in God's name are you here arguing this? Because that's precisely what you are doing. Arguing real world logic against fiction is idiotic. Lazy? What Author in their right mind will lay out all the workings of their fiction? None have, none will. It would take up literal encyclopedias to do so and they have better things to spend their time on.

Anyway, don't bother replying. I'm placing you on ignore.

 

[Aricitic]

Actually I would bet few people could draw a sword from their hip against all the leverage that that old man represents without changing their position or stance.

Granted there is much to say about the stupidity of maintaining such a position, but momentarily stopping an individual from drawing a sword in such a manner is definitely within the realm of real world physics.

BUT none of that really matters. This IS a fantasy setting where real world physics is broken on the regular and to nitpick something so irrelevant is just silly.

Since I came back to respond one last time to the other person I decided I should respond to your comment and not just "like" it.
My initial comment was less about whether it was truly possible or not given our physics, which I am not nearly worldly wise to determine (neither a physicist nor a martial artist myself so...), and much more about the initial absurdity of the argument (which I noticed you came to the same conclusion of).
Honestly, within the realms of "fiction" trying to argue something as "impossible" is absolutely absurd. The opposite, trying to argue how something could be possible is entirely different and can make for an interesting discussion. And this doesn't just stand with Fantasy, but Science Fiction can create an interesting dialogue about possibilities and so forth.

I, myself, have fallen into the pit of calling something within fiction absurd, but rather quickly realized what I was doing and turned it into a joke within the same comment. It was a chapter of Yasei no Last Boss ga Arawareta! where the Mangaka was showing how strong an attack was by "zooming out" on the solar system and showing the attack shooting off into space from the planet. My comment wasn't even about the attack, but how, if the solar system existed as represented then all the planets would be pulled off of their orbits by the others nearby (not to mention that the occupied planet was very clearly not within the Goldilocks zone). But I quickly realized that it was just that: a "representation" of the solar system.

Sure, I will call out other absurdities, but the others are very much less about technology, magic, physics, etc, and more about interactions and decisions. These can vastly more easily be argued one way or another, disregarding the ramifications of the "fiction" within which they exist.

 

[Miserys_End]

Since I came back to respond one last time to the other person I decided I should respond to your comment and not just "like" it.
My initial comment was less about whether it was truly possible or not given our physics, which I am not nearly worldly wise to determine (neither a physicist nor a martial artist myself so...), and much more about the initial absurdity of the argument (which I noticed you came to the same conclusion of).

Won't say it's 100% possible, but watching Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee and other martial artists on their level preform is utterly insane. Watching some of the people in the SCA and other reenactment groups was just as interesting even if not to the same degree.

It's honestly awe inspiring to watch these people train, spar, and compete. The sheer ammount of body control and spacial awareness boggles the mind. LoL growing up in the 70s and 80s was truely a wild ride. Everything these days is all CGI and overly choreographed stunt doubles... it's no wonder the younger generations forget how capable humans can be when they're not attached to phone 24/7.

Honestly, within the realms of "fiction" trying to argue something as "impossible" is absolutely absurd. The opposite, trying to argue how something could be possible is entirely different and can make for an interesting discussion. And this doesn't just stand with Fantasy, but Science Fiction can create an interesting dialogue about possibilities and so forth.

I, myself, have fallen into the pit of calling something within fiction absurd, but rather quickly realized what I was doing and turned it into a joke within the same comment. It was a chapter of Yasei no Last Boss ga Arawareta! where the Mangaka was showing how strong an attack was by "zooming out" on the solar system and showing the attack shooting off into space from the planet. My comment wasn't even about the attack, but how, if the solar system existed as represented then all the planets would be pulled off of their orbits by the others nearby (not to mention that the occupied planet was very clearly not within the Goldilocks zone). But I quickly realized that it was just that: a "representation" of the solar system.

Sure, I will call out other absurdities, but the others are very much less about technology, magic, physics, etc, and more about interactions and decisions. These can vastly more easily be argued one way or another, disregarding the ramifications of the "fiction" within which they exist.

I am a product of my past. I can ignore a lot of fantasy silliness with a wink, a nod, and a good natured "it's magic" hand wave, but I like it to be at least somewhat to be grounded in logic. When an author starts getting unhinged or inconsistent I start loosing interest.

 

[Aricitic]

I am a product of my past. I can ignore a lot of fantasy silliness with a wink, a nod, and a good natured "it's magic" hand wave, but I like it to be at least somewhat to be grounded in logic. When an author starts getting unhinged or inconsistent I start loosing interest.

I can certainly understand that. While I'm generally all for a "good" "all-out power trip" if the author starts solely applying "deus ex machina" for everything I agree that it just becomes boring... But, honestly, when an author does that even they have generally become bored with their own work (or desperate and "in over their own head").

I mean, even the end of the (western) series (of novels) starting with "Pawn of Prophecy" effectively ends a war of two "universal" Gods (distinct from planetary Gods because they - started out as one God - designed entire galaxies at once, specifying placement of solar systems etc) by one "mortal" choosing between two children and the "bad guy" bursting into (effectively) an entirely new galaxy to replace the one that "oopsies" and was destroyed, by the time "the light of that galaxy's destruction reached the planet." (And supposedly all that mass literally erupting from the bad guy either teleported or subsequently traveled back to it's destination, with no further damage - such as obliterating the planet or pulling anything out of orbit)

Anyway, yes, I absolutely do agree that the sole argument of "magic did it" is lazy, because it is, but if the thing being argued against is "that is impossible" and "that" is in fiction, the argument is "enough" (particularly if nothing else is accepted, and either that was the creator's explanation or there was none)

 

[welcome2atlantis]

lol grotesque.
I didn't expect that word to come out.

 

[Khazar123]

Glad to see the comment section is just as eye-rolling as this chapter.

Synergy