Ore Igai Dare mo Saishu Dekinai Sozai na no ni "Sozai Saishuritsu ga Hikui" to Pawahara suru Osananajimi Renkinjutsushi to Zetsuen shita Senzoku Mado…

[feha]

The prince is the one who betrayed humanity, no doubt with the evil advice of the fake saint. The true saint is the one opposing the evil ruler.
Besides, have you not seen the true face of the fake saint, when she sent prisoners to dangerous mission of gathering ingredients, and the alchemist got worried about the end result of what these ingredients were going to be used for.

Good and evil are not subjective. They are objective truths that humanity does not fully understand. Many people are stuck with outdated models of good and evil, but all models are attempts to feel out the same truth. Just like in physics, where General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are both best approximations of reality we have, even though we know both of them are incomplete. While Newtonian Mechanics are not as good approximation of reality, but still good enough for most purposes.

You are right, it is not subjective. It is objectively what the state (aka the prince of that nation) says it is, because they have supreme authority over their citizens. And authority can't be contested, and any attempt to do so in Evil. Which is why the fake saint is evil, unlike the new (aka true) saint.

 

[flannan]

You are right, it is not subjective. It is objectively what the state (aka the prince of that nation) says it is, because they have supreme authority over their citizens. And authority can't be contested, and any attempt to do so in Evil. Which is why the fake saint is evil, unlike the new (aka true) saint.

I think you are insane. Government works have nothing to do with morality. Most governments are incompetent and cause a great amount of suffering.

 

[feha]

I think you are insane. Government works have nothing to do with morality. Most governments are incompetent and cause a great amount of suffering.

That is why I am saying it is subjective, and proved my point by taking the opposite (it being objective) and follow the logic from there, letting you see how that axiom leads to absurdity. I obviously don't actually think it is objective (because it isn't)

 

[flannan]

That is why I am saying it is subjective, and proved my point by taking the opposite (it being objective) and follow the logic from there, letting you see how that axiom leads to absurdity. I obviously don't actually think it is objective (because it isn't)

On the contrary. The fact that you couldn't take that position while being honest, proves that morality is objective, and you, like most people, feel it instinctively.
Just because you can state a wrong moral postulate, doesn't mean that it can't be proven wrong.

 

[feha]

On the contrary. The fact that you couldn't take that position while being honest, proves that morality is objective, and you, like most people, feel it instinctively.
Just because you can state a wrong moral postulate, doesn't mean that it can't be proven wrong.

I obviously don't agree with the moral postulate I stated, but that was the entire point, to show that there are ones that neither I, nor (hopefully) you, agree with. But that there nevertheless exist ones that do agree with it (ie. a government or monarch with "divine right/god's mandate").
Had I agreed with the postulate myself, then I would have only reinforced the possibility of it (good/evil) being objective (making the entire exercise redundant). What was important was that we disagreed with whatever I postulated, and that someone agrees with it (as that means it is subjective by definition).

But if you want an example grounded more in reality (despite being identical to the one in this chapter), we have terrorism: where the perpetrators consider it a good & justified act for a good & just cause, while the victims and surroundings tend to consider it pure evil.
ie. A disgraced saint labeled as fake, attacking the prince of a nation to kidnap him from his seat of power. Fighting the true saint in the process.

 

[Onsokumaru]

Snip.

You can't use "fake" like that in this context. Use "previous" and "current". Like how we talk about presidents and such.

 

[feha]

You can't use "fake" like that in this context. Use "previous" and "current". Like how we talk about presidents and such.

No, she is still calling herself/being called "the saintess". That makes her a fake one. Yes, she is "a previous saint". But more accurately she is "a previous saint who is still going around falsely claiming to be a saint". Which is what makes her a fake saint.

Consider this: You have a police officer that is fired with disgrace. The guy then starts knocking on elderly people's doors and asking to be let in because he is a cop and needs to investigate something, doing whatever nefarious scheme he would do when let into an elderly person's home. The police & media would then call him a "fake cop [crime]ing elderly people".

 

[flannan]

No, she is still calling herself/being called "the saintess". That makes her a fake one. Yes, she is "a previous saint". But more accurately she is "a previous saint who is still going around falsely claiming to be a saint". Which is what makes her a fake saint.

Consider this: You have a police officer that is fired with disgrace. The guy then starts knocking on elderly people's doors and asking to be let in because he is a cop and needs to investigate something, doing whatever nefarious scheme he would do when let into an elderly person's home. The police & media would then call him a "fake cop [crime]ing elderly people".

"Saint" and "hero" are not job titles. Government does not get to decide who is a saint or a hero.
If somebody was awarded a medal of heroism by the government without them being heroic or doing anything heroic, they are a fake hero.
Thus, the current "saint" is a fake saint, for she is not saintly at all, and does not do anything saintly either. On the other hand, the previous saint is quite saintly, and she uses her holy magic to help humanity, such as when she reinforced the protective barriers of that tower.

 

[feha]

"Saint" and "hero" are not job titles. Government does not get to decide who is a saint or a hero.
If somebody was awarded a medal of heroism by the government without them being heroic or doing anything heroic, they are a fake hero.
Thus, the current "saint" is a fake saint, for she is not saintly at all, and does not do anything saintly either. On the other hand, the previous saint is quite saintly, and she uses her holy magic to help humanity, such as when she reinforced the protective barriers of that tower.

It quite literally is a title given by the government, it is the entire plot behind how this prince fired her and hired a new saintess.
The medal (or a noble-title) analogy is somewhat decent enough (though it seems more like a job here), and even those can be rescinded after-the-fact. And you are per definition never a fake recipient of a medal or noble title, even if the merits themselves were fake (though odds are you will have said title/medal rescinded if it is found out - still not a fake though, until you then claim you still hold said title/medal).
Either way, only the most messed up countries would remove your ability to perform the actions associated with the job (since generally that means stuff like dismemberment or lobotomy), so it is not odd she can still do those things even after having been stripped of the position.

The current saint is the real saint, as she currently have the job and title provided by her government.

As for the "hero"-position, I have no idea if it is the same in this manga, or divinely ordained. Since we have yet to see the system be depicted, or if it even exists.

 

[Simpleton]

The logic of this dud truely is astounding. Doesn't like the cost of defending his borders from demon beasts so attempts to quietly kill off the nations saint because she costs him money and is popular more with his subjects and subordinates then himself. Because the cost of maintaining his borders is high, He feels it's easier to just raise the banners of war and steal it from other nations.

Boo hoo, the Prince's reasoning is flawed.

This entire manga is about how everyone (everyone!) is an idiot who still has fair reasons to believe and act the way they do (just that they all have their blind spots) and the way to become a better person is by trying to get rid of your blind spots and preconcieved notions (and use the power of friendship/alliances to see or do what you can not)