Release That Witch - Ch. 60 - The End of a King
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@Doomer
1. Tens of thousands
2. Everyone
Sometimes evil must be done for good reasons. You can't accomplish everything with pretty words alone.
Hell you can see that today with CEOs. To the degree that they'll choose to fuck over humanity in order to have good quarterly results. Often they even fuck over their company's long term to get those sweet quarterly results because that's what gets them the sweet bonuses here and now. Politicians etc are more examples of this. So your idea is even less realistic than magic.
Working with the knowledge they have, The Church here is making the best choices they can to ensure the survival of humanity. For their plans, they need a more complete control. Although they're ultimately far more harmful than helpful in the end if you consider what they don't know.
Choose who dies
1. Tens of thousands
2. Everyone
Sometimes evil must be done for good reasons. You can't accomplish everything with pretty words alone.
Not realistic at all. This is a feudal society. Power is divided among not only the kings but lots of other nobility as well. Even the kings can't afford to piss off all the nobility - well not normal kings who wield the same sort of weapons as the nobility. Anyhow the phrase "herding cats" comes to mind. The amount of cooperation you will get is limited and varied. Lots of people are short sighted and look at their own profits and gains over the bigger picture.
Hell you can see that today with CEOs. To the degree that they'll choose to fuck over humanity in order to have good quarterly results. Often they even fuck over their company's long term to get those sweet quarterly results because that's what gets them the sweet bonuses here and now. Politicians etc are more examples of this. So your idea is even less realistic than magic.
Working with the knowledge they have, The Church here is making the best choices they can to ensure the survival of humanity. For their plans, they need a more complete control. Although they're ultimately far more harmful than helpful in the end if you consider what they don't know.
Roland could have done great things with all the witches that got killed, but they don't understand this. They believe the "God's punishment warrior" is the greatest weapon humanity can create. This was also the belief of the witch who founded them. From their view, this makes sense. But their warriors (which required the sacrifice of witches) will get killed like nothing by Roland's weapons. And they wouldn't have been nearly enough to deal with the "Demon Race" anyhow.
Besides not having the knowledge Roland does, they don't know that all the while the "Demon Race" has been defending against another enemy. It is their spores which turn animals into "demonic beasts" anyhow, but a good comparison would be to the Zerg. It is every 400 years the Demons have a chance to make another birth tower and thus push into Humanity's lands while at the same time defending against the other enemy. That and of course they've advanced in 400 years. "God's punishment warriors" would never have been enough when the "Demons" got serious about dealing with Humans.
Besides not having the knowledge Roland does, they don't know that all the while the "Demon Race" has been defending against another enemy. It is their spores which turn animals into "demonic beasts" anyhow, but a good comparison would be to the Zerg. It is every 400 years the Demons have a chance to make another birth tower and thus push into Humanity's lands while at the same time defending against the other enemy. That and of course they've advanced in 400 years. "God's punishment warriors" would never have been enough when the "Demons" got serious about dealing with Humans.
I feel like they REALLY jumped the gun here. We should have found out about the church the same time the MC did. Now, we are going to hold this chapters info for a while, and probably forget about most of the details by the time they go back to it. There is so much other stuff going on, and this story likes to jump from scene to scene like it does that by the time we get back around to it, the chapter will be over a few months old probably and not fresh in the mind. A better way to do this would have been to keep the civil war going for a while, and as the story for that progresses the MC finds out about the church, while also allowing us to. They could have kept hints at it, like instead of having this conversation with the king just have him be a shadowed figure and only have several statements that would not affirm who he is, but give enough to hint at it.
I am getting to the point that i think i may drop this. Only reason i have not is because when they are NOT jumping to a random scene suddenly the chapters in the border town are interesting and well done, as were the ones with the witches. That really is the only big complaint i have, they do something interesting in border town and then suddenly with no warning the next chapter is somewhere miles away about different characters and half the time introducing new characters, all while there are a dozen other plot threads already going on as it is. It's needlessly complex and amateurish pacing. Not to mention the whole reincarnation thing is getting lost in all these needless details, and after 60 chapters the character development on the mc and the witches around him is still extremely low. The term as wide as an ocean as deep as a puddle comes to mind when thinking of how to describe the story.
I am getting to the point that i think i may drop this. Only reason i have not is because when they are NOT jumping to a random scene suddenly the chapters in the border town are interesting and well done, as were the ones with the witches. That really is the only big complaint i have, they do something interesting in border town and then suddenly with no warning the next chapter is somewhere miles away about different characters and half the time introducing new characters, all while there are a dozen other plot threads already going on as it is. It's needlessly complex and amateurish pacing. Not to mention the whole reincarnation thing is getting lost in all these needless details, and after 60 chapters the character development on the mc and the witches around him is still extremely low. The term as wide as an ocean as deep as a puddle comes to mind when thinking of how to describe the story.
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In the novel he kills the king himself at the end. In the comic, well they aren't clear what happens, even if the king dies or not, but clearly he didn't kill him because they were talking through bars. If you're going to copy everything else, copy it properly. The only reason I can think to change this is maybe they saw him personally killing the king as too dark.
But how can they draw a line there? They already showed the girl being sold off as a probable sex slave. Including the horrifying line about them being tender. Those girls also go to this dungeon thing from what I recall in the novel.
But how can they draw a line there? They already showed the girl being sold off as a probable sex slave. Including the horrifying line about them being tender. Those girls also go to this dungeon thing from what I recall in the novel.
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@criver that wasn't what I meant
it's acceptable that they are trying to base their view on real historical events
my problem is that this picture became really repetitive and excessively used by many novelists and mangakas especially when it comes to magic and such
It became like a stereotype to these kinds of stories to use either a demon lord or a church or even both for the 'bad guys' part and usually, both of these characters are based on gods and religious ideals
it feels like the writers stopped putting any thinking or effort into these parts and that's why I'm being annoyed by it this much
btw I'm not basing this opinion on this manhwa in particular, it's more a general opinion about the whole isekei genre
it's acceptable that they are trying to base their view on real historical events
my problem is that this picture became really repetitive and excessively used by many novelists and mangakas especially when it comes to magic and such
It became like a stereotype to these kinds of stories to use either a demon lord or a church or even both for the 'bad guys' part and usually, both of these characters are based on gods and religious ideals
it feels like the writers stopped putting any thinking or effort into these parts and that's why I'm being annoyed by it this much
btw I'm not basing this opinion on this manhwa in particular, it's more a general opinion about the whole isekei genre
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@Doomer :
> they are not saint they are just greedy and using it as an excuse to take over.
Just because they're not evil doesn't mean they're good, it's not a binary option, this series wouldn't be so popular if everything is always good vs evil like some children tales.
Hell, they're basically working on a less clear cut binary option of the train track dilemma: They can either cause the suffering of probably millions to unite the humans, or EVERYONE die, such choices eh?
> they are not saint they are just greedy and using it as an excuse to take over.
Just because they're not evil doesn't mean they're good, it's not a binary option, this series wouldn't be so popular if everything is always good vs evil like some children tales.
Hell, they're basically working on a less clear cut binary option of the train track dilemma: They can either cause the suffering of probably millions to unite the humans, or EVERYONE die, such choices eh?
@Doomer As far as I know the Gallick wars were not considered a genocide. They succeeded in conquering Gaul and didn't go and murder everyone just for kicks. On the other hand the albigensian crusade was something else - "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.". As far as my comment regarding "the first" gencoide goes, it is considered the first in a specific sense: "Kurt Jonassohn and Karin Solveig Björnson describe the Albigensian Crusade as "the first ideological genocide"."
And really, I am not arguing who's more evil here - I am sure you can find as many atrocities as you want in human history, won't change the fact that the church was a major perpetrator throughout history. So there's nothing strange in seeing this reflected in fictional stories.
@Dorxless I don't find an issue with an institution based on taking advantage of gullible people being depicted as "evil". It's just a logical consequence of the way such institutions work, where blind faith is prioritized over reason. This would be an issue if it actually didn't make sense. Not to say that I don't get where you're coming from - the church here feels "artificially" evil, like in many other manga. But that's not only limited to the church in manga really, it just has to do with manga writers not being very good at writing. On average a light novel can't hold a candle to an actual novel, written by an actual writer and not some author wannabe. Just off how the medium works you get some of the lowest effort and worst writing as compared to other media. It's unfortunate but it's true.
And really, I am not arguing who's more evil here - I am sure you can find as many atrocities as you want in human history, won't change the fact that the church was a major perpetrator throughout history. So there's nothing strange in seeing this reflected in fictional stories.
@Dorxless I don't find an issue with an institution based on taking advantage of gullible people being depicted as "evil". It's just a logical consequence of the way such institutions work, where blind faith is prioritized over reason. This would be an issue if it actually didn't make sense. Not to say that I don't get where you're coming from - the church here feels "artificially" evil, like in many other manga. But that's not only limited to the church in manga really, it just has to do with manga writers not being very good at writing. On average a light novel can't hold a candle to an actual novel, written by an actual writer and not some author wannabe. Just off how the medium works you get some of the lowest effort and worst writing as compared to other media. It's unfortunate but it's true.
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@Eridian
It's called dramatic irony. Sometimes it's better and more realistic that the characters only know of half of the story.
Also if you dislike the jumps, it might be better to stop here. Release that Witch has A LOT of characters and the author likes to deviate from the plot now and then to give us an update on those characters. I am going to be honest here, the church chapters are by far the most boring but also the most informative. The jumps are also a good way of doing time skips without having it feel too unnatural. After all, for a cultivation series like this, time skips are very abundant.
If the reason why you dislike these skips is because of the slow release of the manhua then feel free to read the novel. Highly recommend it, over 1400 chapters.
It's called dramatic irony. Sometimes it's better and more realistic that the characters only know of half of the story.
Also if you dislike the jumps, it might be better to stop here. Release that Witch has A LOT of characters and the author likes to deviate from the plot now and then to give us an update on those characters. I am going to be honest here, the church chapters are by far the most boring but also the most informative. The jumps are also a good way of doing time skips without having it feel too unnatural. After all, for a cultivation series like this, time skips are very abundant.
If the reason why you dislike these skips is because of the slow release of the manhua then feel free to read the novel. Highly recommend it, over 1400 chapters.
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@bk3k @WhimsiCat
see you guys are under this impression that if the church doesn't do this humanity is fucked yet i very much doubt it. apparently this is the 3'rd time the demons are going to invade meaning it's happened twice before and humanity is still standing so at worst a lot of people will die and some land lost but humanity will survive.
then there's the idea of a holy coalition which for some odd reason you guys claim would never work even though it has happened several times throughout our own history, the crusades, the reconquista, the holy league and at least in the first half of it the 30 years war.
coalitions based on a religion unifying them can work, if they came out and said "we need to unite to fight the evil demons and anyone that fights in this will have their souls cleansed and their sins abolished" people from across the continent would come and for that extra little bit they could also threaten to excommunicate any king or strong feudal lord that refused to join.
see you guys are under this impression that if the church doesn't do this humanity is fucked yet i very much doubt it. apparently this is the 3'rd time the demons are going to invade meaning it's happened twice before and humanity is still standing so at worst a lot of people will die and some land lost but humanity will survive.
then there's the idea of a holy coalition which for some odd reason you guys claim would never work even though it has happened several times throughout our own history, the crusades, the reconquista, the holy league and at least in the first half of it the 30 years war.
coalitions based on a religion unifying them can work, if they came out and said "we need to unite to fight the evil demons and anyone that fights in this will have their souls cleansed and their sins abolished" people from across the continent would come and for that extra little bit they could also threaten to excommunicate any king or strong feudal lord that refused to join.
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@Doomer: Well, in case you haven't noticed yet, the people who said the church is on desperate measure have read the novel.
And guess what, it's established in the novel that this 3rd loss is going to doom humanity, for good.
As for the holy coalition: Yeah, it happened, guess what, it broke apart in the end and I'm pretty sure it started from the inside.
That SURE sounds like a good option to bet on when it's your last roll eh.
Excommunication threat :Woohoo....just look at Roland's citizens, do they care that their lord is now working with the supposed 'Devil's minion' witches and basically saying fuck the church?
Yeah, that threat suuuure is effective.
And guess what, it's established in the novel that this 3rd loss is going to doom humanity, for good.
As for the holy coalition: Yeah, it happened, guess what, it broke apart in the end and I'm pretty sure it started from the inside.
That SURE sounds like a good option to bet on when it's your last roll eh.
Excommunication threat :Woohoo....just look at Roland's citizens, do they care that their lord is now working with the supposed 'Devil's minion' witches and basically saying fuck the church?
Yeah, that threat suuuure is effective.
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@HuevoPodrido What other religion is wide spread enough to do illegal activities, besides Muslims who have been known to outright kill people who disparage their religion, so that is off the table for small creators. Also I see many that relate more to Scientology than Christianity, they are rather similar due to Scientology pretty much being based on fictional Christianity by a science fiction writer, but it is a lot better structured for covert activities. I would say that the one in this story may lean a bit closer to Scientology just based on it's layout and the fact that Scientology actually literally infiltrated the government at one point to destroy information that the IRS obtained about them.
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@vodspod That's debatable, as you said, there is the muslim religion, as at least an example that could be used in an ideal world. There is also the religious model of past times like the Inca pantheon, if I'm not mistaken they took the hearts of people in the most literal way, and I would say that they were blended in the government. What I'm missing is the richness of variety.
On the other hand, you are right about Scientology, it just happens that the mangas that use that religion tend to be very obscure and weird to my taste, but there are a lot indeed.
On the other hand, you are right about Scientology, it just happens that the mangas that use that religion tend to be very obscure and weird to my taste, but there are a lot indeed.
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@WhimsiCat i'm not predicting what will happen i'm telling you want could have happened.
so in your mind starting all these civil wars, wasting tons of war material, causing the death of not only tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents but also as many soldiers is a better strategy than a united coalition? even if the kings refuse it's at least worth a fucking try.
you really underestimate the impact religion had on medieval life. not only do they hold incredible sway over the populace but excommunication was a serious thing, enough to cause wars and uprisings. you say "the people in MC's town are ok with witches so that means the church has no power" did you miss the part where he had to hide them and only brought them out to make extreme gestures of kindness in order to convince all these people not to straight up murder them?
also which LN chapter are we on right now? i want to read this.
so in your mind starting all these civil wars, wasting tons of war material, causing the death of not only tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents but also as many soldiers is a better strategy than a united coalition? even if the kings refuse it's at least worth a fucking try.
you really underestimate the impact religion had on medieval life. not only do they hold incredible sway over the populace but excommunication was a serious thing, enough to cause wars and uprisings. you say "the people in MC's town are ok with witches so that means the church has no power" did you miss the part where he had to hide them and only brought them out to make extreme gestures of kindness in order to convince all these people not to straight up murder them?
also which LN chapter are we on right now? i want to read this.
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@Doomer
> i'm telling you want could have happened.
Which is not what happened, nor will it happen and not to mention your suggestions ignore the context of the story outright (time limit approaching, nobles being selfish, etc) so why even make them if you're going to ignore the rest of the settings?
>so in your mind starting all these civil wars, wasting tons of war material, causing the death of not only tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents but also as many soldiers is a better strategy than a united coalition?
Given the settings that's been given, yes.
>you really underestimate the impact religion had on medieval life. not only do they hold incredible sway over the populace but excommunication was a serious thing, enough to cause wars and uprisings
and in this series nobody in power give a shit about getting excommunicated because it's a non-threat
the kingdoms send their soldiers to support the church's fight against demonic beasts, so if anything the church is the one that'll suffer if the kingdoms stop supporting it, not the other way around
>did you miss the part where he had to hide them and only brought them out to make extreme gestures of kindness in order to convince all these people not to straight up murder them?
>extreme gestures of kindness in order to convince all these people not to straight up murder them?
If you mean Nana curing normal sickness is 'extreme gestures of kindness', your world is pretty damn bleak.
Roland only hid the witches until he built up his army, after which he openly support them and guess what, pretty much all of the Border Town citizens supported him anyway, because he showed results.
The citizens had to escape and live in the slum for months in the years before, with many dying during that time.
Now? Who are they gonna pick even if the church declare Roland a heretic? The church that never done anything for them? Or the Lord who not only showed results, but also the witches (well, Nana specifically) saved many of their lives? Piety don't mean shit if you're dead.
> i'm telling you want could have happened.
Which is not what happened, nor will it happen and not to mention your suggestions ignore the context of the story outright (time limit approaching, nobles being selfish, etc) so why even make them if you're going to ignore the rest of the settings?
>so in your mind starting all these civil wars, wasting tons of war material, causing the death of not only tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents but also as many soldiers is a better strategy than a united coalition?
Given the settings that's been given, yes.
The church has been around for close to 400 years, and if you consider they're started by witches who took part in the previous 2 wars that lost them most of the continent (note how the 4 kingdoms are next to the sea) the history goes even further.
Do you think these characters were made to be so dumb they never tried a coalition?
They did, it failed, because nobles ended up BETRAYING the coalition just to save their own asses, despite the fact that if they lost the artifact EVERYONE DIE.
Though for the current church it's probably more of "we don't have time to take it slow anymore" situation.
Do you think these characters were made to be so dumb they never tried a coalition?
They did, it failed, because nobles ended up BETRAYING the coalition just to save their own asses, despite the fact that if they lost the artifact EVERYONE DIE.
Though for the current church it's probably more of "we don't have time to take it slow anymore" situation.
>you really underestimate the impact religion had on medieval life. not only do they hold incredible sway over the populace but excommunication was a serious thing, enough to cause wars and uprisings
and in this series nobody in power give a shit about getting excommunicated because it's a non-threat
the kingdoms send their soldiers to support the church's fight against demonic beasts, so if anything the church is the one that'll suffer if the kingdoms stop supporting it, not the other way around
>did you miss the part where he had to hide them and only brought them out to make extreme gestures of kindness in order to convince all these people not to straight up murder them?
>extreme gestures of kindness in order to convince all these people not to straight up murder them?
If you mean Nana curing normal sickness is 'extreme gestures of kindness', your world is pretty damn bleak.
Roland only hid the witches until he built up his army, after which he openly support them and guess what, pretty much all of the Border Town citizens supported him anyway, because he showed results.
The citizens had to escape and live in the slum for months in the years before, with many dying during that time.
Now? Who are they gonna pick even if the church declare Roland a heretic? The church that never done anything for them? Or the Lord who not only showed results, but also the witches (well, Nana specifically) saved many of their lives? Piety don't mean shit if you're dead.
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