Rettou Gan no Tensei Majutsushi ~ Shiitagerareta Moto Yuusha wa Mirai no Sekai o Yoyuu de Ikinuku ~ - Vol. 2 Ch. 10
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@firefox1234 Sorry if I just missed it, but where does it say that magic strength is differentiated by one's eye color?
What I find on Chapter 3, pages 7 and 12, is that eye color determines their elemental affinity. Assuming they mentioned colors on pg 12 respectively to the types mentioned on pg 7:
Red -> Fire
Blue -> Water
Green -> Wind
Grey -> Crafting
Black -> Healing
Amber eyes after viewed as weaker, but I haven't noticed evidence of any of the other colors being favored as stronger than the rest? Though it does seem to be favoring red eyes in Abel's acquaintances...but I don't notice any background npcs remarking that they must be strong because they have red eyes. In fact, they were also talking smack about Eliza before the exam because "she protected a commoner" and "I've never seen that family crest before, they're probably nobles from some rural area".
As far as Eliza's actions, I feel like you're putting words in her mouth.
In Chapter 8, she never said anything about him being weak. "Speading malicious gossip about a commoner who just arrived..." "Lowly commoner...!" "I don't remember giving a commoner permission to have a conversation with me?" She DOES basically say "If you want me to notice you, prove your strength" but that's hardly calling him weak, unless you want to go as in-depth as Abel's inner monologue (commoners produce far fewer great mages than nobility). Also, unlike Ted's brother Bast she doesn't try to deny his accomplishments, even when she didn't see them firsthand.
Rather than not CARING about the rules of nobles, she said she's just not a STICKLER for them, as in "they aren't ironclad rules" or "exceptions can be made". She treated him harshly because, rather than seeing him as an equal because they're both examinees, she saw him as overstepping his bounds as a commoner towards a noble. Here's what I think would be an appropriate example: If you were a supervisor and chastised another supervisor for mocking an employee, and the employee went to hug you for speaking in their defense, would you accept that as normal or would they be overstepping?
What I find on Chapter 3, pages 7 and 12, is that eye color determines their elemental affinity. Assuming they mentioned colors on pg 12 respectively to the types mentioned on pg 7:
Red -> Fire
Blue -> Water
Green -> Wind
Grey -> Crafting
Black -> Healing
Amber eyes after viewed as weaker, but I haven't noticed evidence of any of the other colors being favored as stronger than the rest? Though it does seem to be favoring red eyes in Abel's acquaintances...but I don't notice any background npcs remarking that they must be strong because they have red eyes. In fact, they were also talking smack about Eliza before the exam because "she protected a commoner" and "I've never seen that family crest before, they're probably nobles from some rural area".
As far as Eliza's actions, I feel like you're putting words in her mouth.
In Chapter 8, she never said anything about him being weak. "Speading malicious gossip about a commoner who just arrived..." "Lowly commoner...!" "I don't remember giving a commoner permission to have a conversation with me?" She DOES basically say "If you want me to notice you, prove your strength" but that's hardly calling him weak, unless you want to go as in-depth as Abel's inner monologue (commoners produce far fewer great mages than nobility). Also, unlike Ted's brother Bast she doesn't try to deny his accomplishments, even when she didn't see them firsthand.
Rather than not CARING about the rules of nobles, she said she's just not a STICKLER for them, as in "they aren't ironclad rules" or "exceptions can be made". She treated him harshly because, rather than seeing him as an equal because they're both examinees, she saw him as overstepping his bounds as a commoner towards a noble. Here's what I think would be an appropriate example: If you were a supervisor and chastised another supervisor for mocking an employee, and the employee went to hug you for speaking in their defense, would you accept that as normal or would they be overstepping?
I think your too caught up in the exact reasoning she uses rather than the kind of reasoning it is and if she's ultimately doing the same thing. Whether her reason is class or strength, she's still categorizing people by a characteristic that isn't related to the content of their character and dismissing a whole group. If it wasn't a setting with fighting, it would be like chastising nobles for dismissing someone due to their class of birth but then dismissing them yourself for their being poor, their economic class. I think you could only avoid calling her a hypocrite if you try to squeeze out of it with the minor details of her wording and not consider what she actually does. She isn't doing it as much as the others but it's still the same kinda thing and doing the same kinda thing as what your criticizing, rather than obviously doing the exact same thing, is usually what people are doing when they are called hypocrites.
as for the matter of being "best of a group" it's something I wish people remembered more, that being the best the options doesn't mean it is good or even adequate. After I saw the differences in opinions of people who watched the anime, read the manga, or read the LN or WN for Shield Hero I noticed that, partly because the anime desperately tries to frame Naofumi as an outright hero from the beginning, anime and manga readers miss the point that Nao is ALSO bad, just not as much. The point of the story is that a bunch of isekai fans have to work out their flaws bit by bit and eventually develop into actual heroes and Nao isn't anywhere near that point in either of those two versions and that tends to be forgotten when he's compared to the others that are at an earlier stage in their development. It's a similar thing here. She may be a step up from the nobles there but she's still pretty bad in that she dismisses people she doesn't know based on some categorization unrelated to their character. Further, though she wasn't dismissing him for his class itself, she dismissed him based on an assumption she made using his class. Again, she's better but still not good. She's so far proven herself the sort that you would only tolerate in the form of a cute 2d anime girl and would avoid if you met in real life, thinking her a bad person.
as for the matter of being "best of a group" it's something I wish people remembered more, that being the best the options doesn't mean it is good or even adequate. After I saw the differences in opinions of people who watched the anime, read the manga, or read the LN or WN for Shield Hero I noticed that, partly because the anime desperately tries to frame Naofumi as an outright hero from the beginning, anime and manga readers miss the point that Nao is ALSO bad, just not as much. The point of the story is that a bunch of isekai fans have to work out their flaws bit by bit and eventually develop into actual heroes and Nao isn't anywhere near that point in either of those two versions and that tends to be forgotten when he's compared to the others that are at an earlier stage in their development. It's a similar thing here. She may be a step up from the nobles there but she's still pretty bad in that she dismisses people she doesn't know based on some categorization unrelated to their character. Further, though she wasn't dismissing him for his class itself, she dismissed him based on an assumption she made using his class. Again, she's better but still not good. She's so far proven herself the sort that you would only tolerate in the form of a cute 2d anime girl and would avoid if you met in real life, thinking her a bad person.
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@Meridis
I focused on her words because the other commenter placed so much emphasis on Eliza viewing Abel as weak, Eliza protecting the weak, etc. when, in my opinion, neither her comments or actions reflected as much. And unless his show of strength immediately makes him a noble, I don't think you can use "being weak correlates to social status" as an explanation either.
As for my views on Eliza being a hypocrite....I do think I was misunderstanding where you two were coming from, but I still don't think she's being one. Before I focused on the interactions between Eliza and Abel, but now I realize our differing opinions are more due to her reaction to the nobles. Basically only two panels of that encounter were about their trash-talking. Since it was such a short interaction, it's easy to run with it in several directions.
You take it as her chastising them for talking shit about Abel due to his class, making her a hypocrite.
I took it as her chastising them for displaying behavior unbefitting of a noble, viewing her as upholding the class system outside of making exceptions for the strong. Playing the class card against the nobles for disgraceful behavior, then playing the class card against the Abel for overstepping his bounds; not hypocritical.
I'm starting to see it as her chastising them for going for the low hanging fruit, which shows how weak they actually are for getting self-satisfaction out of that. Not really hypocritical because they had proved themselves weak, and while Abel hadn't proved himself strong she pointed out he still had the opportunity to do so. Here, the class system was a fall-back to rely on when she couldn't make a judgment based on his strength.
I don't really agree with saying she was dismissive of him, since it ignores context. If she'd behaved that way without any provocation? Sure! But...as a commoner to a noble, he moved to touch her, from behind. He broke decorum, she reminded him of his place. Even if you don't agree with their class system, it's what they live with, and he violated their social norms. While she was perhaps ill-mannered, I don't feel it as ill-intentioned because it was a knee-jerk reaction.
I focused on her words because the other commenter placed so much emphasis on Eliza viewing Abel as weak, Eliza protecting the weak, etc. when, in my opinion, neither her comments or actions reflected as much. And unless his show of strength immediately makes him a noble, I don't think you can use "being weak correlates to social status" as an explanation either.
As for my views on Eliza being a hypocrite....I do think I was misunderstanding where you two were coming from, but I still don't think she's being one. Before I focused on the interactions between Eliza and Abel, but now I realize our differing opinions are more due to her reaction to the nobles. Basically only two panels of that encounter were about their trash-talking. Since it was such a short interaction, it's easy to run with it in several directions.
You take it as her chastising them for talking shit about Abel due to his class, making her a hypocrite.
I took it as her chastising them for displaying behavior unbefitting of a noble, viewing her as upholding the class system outside of making exceptions for the strong. Playing the class card against the nobles for disgraceful behavior, then playing the class card against the Abel for overstepping his bounds; not hypocritical.
I'm starting to see it as her chastising them for going for the low hanging fruit, which shows how weak they actually are for getting self-satisfaction out of that. Not really hypocritical because they had proved themselves weak, and while Abel hadn't proved himself strong she pointed out he still had the opportunity to do so. Here, the class system was a fall-back to rely on when she couldn't make a judgment based on his strength.
I don't really agree with saying she was dismissive of him, since it ignores context. If she'd behaved that way without any provocation? Sure! But...as a commoner to a noble, he moved to touch her, from behind. He broke decorum, she reminded him of his place. Even if you don't agree with their class system, it's what they live with, and he violated their social norms. While she was perhaps ill-mannered, I don't feel it as ill-intentioned because it was a knee-jerk reaction.
@Jadian
hmmm, then, yes, she wouldn't be hypocritical if you view her actions like that. However, I feel that makes her look worse as a person if she upholds the class system and it's decorum like that. It causes her to both lose the points she gained from stopping the other nobles, since it was done to maintain the decorum of nobility or the image of their supposed strength rather than because the behavior is wrong, and for thinking that either class or presumed strength based on class bars someone from having the right to talk to her. It would take a lot of character development, way more than simply falling in love or admiring the mc, to make her as likeable as Ted or Lilith. Ted may have had a similar problem at the start but he was a child and only thought he could make someone be his friend because of his status. Him growing past it is quick, easy, and believable. For her, it feels like anything nice she tries to do for awhile will just be insincere.
hmmm, then, yes, she wouldn't be hypocritical if you view her actions like that. However, I feel that makes her look worse as a person if she upholds the class system and it's decorum like that. It causes her to both lose the points she gained from stopping the other nobles, since it was done to maintain the decorum of nobility or the image of their supposed strength rather than because the behavior is wrong, and for thinking that either class or presumed strength based on class bars someone from having the right to talk to her. It would take a lot of character development, way more than simply falling in love or admiring the mc, to make her as likeable as Ted or Lilith. Ted may have had a similar problem at the start but he was a child and only thought he could make someone be his friend because of his status. Him growing past it is quick, easy, and believable. For her, it feels like anything nice she tries to do for awhile will just be insincere.
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I can just imagine what her voice would sound like, if this ever gets an anime adaption.
Power correlates to social status, but that's just a general trend and doesn't apply to all cases, especially with them since they're at a young age.
The nobles were looking down on him simply because he is a commoner and they are nobles. If he was a powerful commoner they would still treat him worse than a powerful noble. If he was a weak noble they wouldn't look down on him if his status was above theirs.
She was looking down on him because he is a commoner and commoners tend to be weak. Likewise, she would also look down on weak nobles. She would have a similar impression of a noble and commoner of similar powers.
She's not being a hypocrite. She looks down on most commoners because they tend to be weak. They look down on all commoners because they are commoners, and that is what she disagrees with. It doesn't contradict her actions at all.
The nobles were looking down on him simply because he is a commoner and they are nobles. If he was a powerful commoner they would still treat him worse than a powerful noble. If he was a weak noble they wouldn't look down on him if his status was above theirs.
She was looking down on him because he is a commoner and commoners tend to be weak. Likewise, she would also look down on weak nobles. She would have a similar impression of a noble and commoner of similar powers.
She's not being a hypocrite. She looks down on most commoners because they tend to be weak. They look down on all commoners because they are commoners, and that is what she disagrees with. It doesn't contradict her actions at all.
@firefox1234
"being weak(or having low magical capabilities) correlates to social status in this world"
where does it say only the nobles are strong?
she didn't think he was weak and not worth her time because he wasn't a noble. it was because he had the "inferior eyes" (you know the trait the whole manga has repeatedly stated it is their common sense that they can't use magic and therefor are automatically the weakest). like i said earlier, she values strength above everything therefor looking down on someone who is the weakest wouldn't be contradictory.
"she does not bully the weak or care for social standing she still turns her nose up to those she perceives as weak, hence she is a hypocrite."
again this is not being a hypocrite, being a hypocrite would be if she looked down (or said she did) on those nobles for only caring about a person's social status and then looked down on people because of their social status. however as you said she doesn't care about one's social status therefor no hypocrisy.
"Like the people who didn't "agree" with slavery in the south they were just as guilty because they knew it was cruelty against fellow humans and knew they were places it does not happen and people live better lives but chose to by silently complicit and benefit from a society that treated humans like chattle hence they were also hypocrites. "
you obviously don't know what life was like at that time. moving long distances was expensive, dangerous, and risky. if they were to move states they would have to take all their belongings with them away from any friends/family/colleges/etc. to a place where no one knew them where they may or may not find a job. just imagine now trying to move out of state but you can't use the internet and phones. how time consuming and expensive would it be to find a new place to live and work? now imagine the trip between states took a couple of days instead of a couple of hours. so just not being able to afford moving out of the south is one reason that they could have stayed. and how about those who chose to stay so they could help run away slaves are they hypocrites too?
"being weak(or having low magical capabilities) correlates to social status in this world"
where does it say only the nobles are strong?
she didn't think he was weak and not worth her time because he wasn't a noble. it was because he had the "inferior eyes" (you know the trait the whole manga has repeatedly stated it is their common sense that they can't use magic and therefor are automatically the weakest). like i said earlier, she values strength above everything therefor looking down on someone who is the weakest wouldn't be contradictory.
"she does not bully the weak or care for social standing she still turns her nose up to those she perceives as weak, hence she is a hypocrite."
again this is not being a hypocrite, being a hypocrite would be if she looked down (or said she did) on those nobles for only caring about a person's social status and then looked down on people because of their social status. however as you said she doesn't care about one's social status therefor no hypocrisy.
"Like the people who didn't "agree" with slavery in the south they were just as guilty because they knew it was cruelty against fellow humans and knew they were places it does not happen and people live better lives but chose to by silently complicit and benefit from a society that treated humans like chattle hence they were also hypocrites. "
you obviously don't know what life was like at that time. moving long distances was expensive, dangerous, and risky. if they were to move states they would have to take all their belongings with them away from any friends/family/colleges/etc. to a place where no one knew them where they may or may not find a job. just imagine now trying to move out of state but you can't use the internet and phones. how time consuming and expensive would it be to find a new place to live and work? now imagine the trip between states took a couple of days instead of a couple of hours. so just not being able to afford moving out of the south is one reason that they could have stayed. and how about those who chose to stay so they could help run away slaves are they hypocrites too?
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