Ruri Dragon - Vol. 1 Ch. 1

[hellyeboi6]

It's not about bein literal. Literal translation is bad, we can agree on that.

Rather, it's about keeping the personality. Ruri comes across as sarcastic and cheeky in English, which she does not in JP.

I read the JP and the characters, while they use youngster slang, are nowhere near talking like American teens.

It's localization at it's worst: they make Japanese teenagers talk like American teenagers, whereas in Japanese culture, being polite and not "in your face" is paramount. The characters come across as aggressive in a Japanese context.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's an issue you have with the translation per se, but with american slang in general. I for one don't consider youngster slang "aggressive", I find it quite endearing actually. Besides the students in the raw are anything but polite, they keep ending sentences with よ, call each other お前, and in general are way laid back in the usage of informal, sometimes straight up impolite japanese.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Hm, the original line that's been translated as "nothing escapes you" is "…だよね" not "そだね", please check again.

You're the second guy I remember correcting me on this line. While, again, I appreciate the commitment to accuracy, it doesn't change the issue at hand.

If I had to translate it literally I would've gone for something like "... right", but the reason Ruri says "だよね" in the first place is because her mom is underreacting, hence the "nothing escapes you"

No, mom is matching her mood in the main series. She's just as surprised, and when she's asked what they are, she responds. Ruri knows what the horns are, mom knows what the horns are, and now she's trying to cope by asking stupid questions in the hope that she'd hear something other than the obvious answer.

The response was her accepting the obvious truth she'd been trying to avoid for the past minute or so.

It's a less subtle translation, but a more natural sounding one for a english speaker. That's something you have to deal with as an jp->en translator, sometimes the literal translation is not the best one for your readers.

It's not the translator's job to "Fix" the translation. Especially when it causes changes to the characters like it does here. I'm seeing the problem here: You see what I'm talking about, but you don't care. I can't argue with "So what?". If it doesn't bother you that this is a re-write, then we're done.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's an issue you have with the translation per se, but with american slang in general. I for one don't consider youngster slang "aggressive", I find it quite endearing actually. Besides the students in the raw are anything but polite, they keep ending sentences with よ, call each other お前, and in general are way laid back in the usage of informal, sometimes straight up impolite japanese.

Yeah, and the exact levels of politeness have an influence on the story, from Ruri being shy, and meek, to her standing up to herself when a classmate oversteps his bounds and talks to her rudely. We're clear that the problem is the re-write. No, we don't have a problem with "American slang in general". The story's been re-written, and it even leads it to contradict the actual story later on.

 

[hellyeboi6]

You're the second guy I remember correcting me on this line. While, again, I appreciate the commitment to accuracy, it doesn't change the issue at hand.

No, mom is matching her mood in the main series. She's just as surprised, and when she's asked what they are, she responds. Ruri knows what the horns are, mom knows what the horns are, and now she's trying to cope by asking stupid questions in the hope that she'd hear something other than the obvious answer.

The response was her accepting the obvious truth she'd been trying to avoid for the past minute or so.


It's not the translator's job to "Fix" the translation. Especially when it causes changes to the characters like it does here. I'm seeing the problem here: You see what I'm talking about, but you don't care. I can't argue with "So what?". If it doesn't bother you that this is a re-write, then we're done.

Yeah, and the exact levels of politeness have an influence on the story, from Ruri being shy, and meek, to her standing up to herself when a classmate oversteps his bounds and talks to her rudely. We're clear that the problem is the re-write. No, we don't have a problem with "American slang in general". The story's been re-written, and it even leads it to contradict the actual story later on.

Well, if anything but a literal translation is bound to labelled as "re-write" then the job of translator wouldn't exist now, google translate is very good at translating literally so that's what everyone would use.
A good translator is able to convert the cultural subtext of the raw in an equivalent cultural subtext that the english speaking readers would understand, not just to translate like a robot.
Fan scanlation teams are quick to call official translations bad but forget a really important fact: official translators, unlike scanlations, are not allowed to use TLN as a crutch. For example how the hell are you supposed to translate the usage of お前? It's easy if you're a scanlating: just translate it as "you" and add a TLN next to it that says "he used omae which is an impolite you". But people at Viz will get fired if they try to do that, they have to be more ingenious than that.
The translation is not being fixed, it's simply being wary of the cultural differences between japanese and english.
Simply put, a translation that is ever so slightly different from the original but makes up for it by conveying what it needs to convey is a good translation.
As for the supposed "contradiction", like I already said it's likely you misinterpreting the translation. In the en version it's very clear that Ruri is not someone who hates people, just someone who doesn't know how to interact with people, which is exactly the same as the raw. The whole point is that the classmate sees Ruri's antisocial behavior as indifferent, which is a misunderstanding. This is clearly conveyed in both the jp and the en version.
Just to wrap up everything: I could see why someone who is a native japanese speaker would find the english translation odd, but from the perspective of an english speaking person it's completely fine and that's all that matters since they are the readers of the english translation in the first place.

That's really all I had to say regarding this translation: it's serviceable. Not perfect, obviously, but good enough for the people it's meant for.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Well, if anything but a literal translation is bound to labelled as "re-write" then the job of translator wouldn't exist now, google translate is very good at translating literally so that's what everyone would use.

What do you even mean by "literal translation"? It keeps being thrown around like a football, but everyone seems to have some bizarre idea of what it means. Do you even understand the problem here? Did you pay attention when the guy told you the characters were changed? Do you care? Of course not.

A good translator is able to convert the cultural subtext of the raw in an equivalent cultural subtext that the english speaking readers would understand, not just to translate like a robot.

If your idea of being a "Good translator" has you defending work this bad, then I'm going to have to agree to disagree.

They didn't say these things, they didn't say them this way, and they definitely didn't mean them. Ruri did not, in fact, just sass her mom, and she doesn't order people around. If you don't care, you don't care.

There's no need to sit around telling us how you don't see what I'm talking about, when you clearly do, and your response is a solid "So?"

Fan scanlation teams are quick to call official translations bad but forget a really important fact: official translators, unlike scanlations, are not allowed to use TLN as a crutch.

Yeah, instead, they're allowed to just re-write the script. Wow, such a challenging job. /s

The translation is not being fixed, it's simply being wary of the cultural differences between japanese and english.

It is changing the characters. The author saw his chance to revive his dead writing career and took a hatchet to the work.

Just to wrap up everything: I could see why someone who is a native japanese speaker would find the english translation odd, but from the perspective of an english speaking person it's completely fine and that's all that matters since they are the readers of the english translation in the first place.

The English speaking person clearly doesn't know better, or care about the author's vision.

For example how the hell are you supposed to translate the usage of お前?

P.S: I gave it some thought, and I came up with a thing that translates the "お前” roughly- scrapping the literal words, while retaining the issue at hand. It's roughly：

”Hey, you, what's with the horns?"
”I have a name”

Since in Japanese, the polite way to refer to someone is by their name. The literal words are gone, but the rudeness of just plainly referring to her as "you", like some generic person, and not a classmate, is preserved, along with her sudden change in tone. Also, his line stays the same, without having to include cringy fucking slang.

And I swear, if you try to remind me of the exact lines again I will appreciate it, but scold you a second time because you're missing the point.

 

[hellyeboi6]

What do you even mean by "literal translation"? It keeps being thrown around like a football, but everyone seems to have some bizarre idea of what it means. Do you even understand the problem here? Did you pay attention when the guy told you the characters were changed? Do you care? Of course not.

If your idea of being a "Good translator" has you defending work this bad, then I'm going to have to agree to disagree.

They didn't say these things, they didn't say them this way, and they definitely didn't mean them. Ruri did not, in fact, just sass her mom, and she doesn't order people around. If you don't care, you don't care.

There's no need to sit around telling us how you don't see what I'm talking about, when you clearly do, and your response is a solid "So?"

Yeah, instead, they're allowed to just re-write the script. Wow, such a challenging job. /s


It is changing the characters. The author saw his chance to revive his dead writing career and took a hatchet to the work.


The English speaking person clearly doesn't know better, or care about the author's vision.

The only reason I find myself having to defend this translation is simply because you aren't familiar with the restrictions and expectations of professional translation. This is just the industry standard, you not agreeing with them is not a failure on the part of the translator.
At the end of the day we are really just disagreeing on what constitutes a "faithful translation". It's not like either of us is gonna change their mind on this topic so like you said, let's just agree to disagree. Hopefully you were at least able to see why the translators at Viz would make these kind of decisions, even if you don't agree with them.

EDIT: Also, two can play at this game. You wanting to translate Ruri's answer to "I have a name" contradicts both with the raw (it's not what she said at all) and with Ruri's personality. Ruri herself is bad with names so there's no way she would scold someone for not remembering her name. Are you trying to re-write her personality?

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

The only reason I find myself having to defend this translation is simply because you aren't familiar with the restrictions and expectations of professional translation. This is just the industry standard, you not agreeing with them is not a failure on the part of the translator.

Yes. I'm aware butchering material is the industry standard. We're all familiar with the fact that these writers don't actually speak the language, or care for the original. We have examples both trivial and egregious to show that they're not interested in actually doing the work, and rather see this as a chance to make their own content, and push their own ideologies.

EDIT: Also, two can play at this game. You wanting to translate Ruri's answer to "I have a name" contradicts both with the raw (it's not what she said at all) and with Ruri's personality. Ruri herself is bad with names so there's no way she would scold someone for not remembering her name. Are you trying to re-write her personality?

I knew you'd get like this despite the fact that I gave your little challenge serious thought. Still, it's disappointing to see you're precisely as "classy" as I expected.

The line works because (In order of importance):

1) We perfectly preserve his.
2) We don't add ridiculous slang where there isn't any.
3) We retain the issue of the rude address.
4) We retain the exact tone of the reprimand.
5) We retain the exact issue in question (it's rude not to call people by their names).
6) The exact solution to the issue is the same (Calling her by name).
7) The social dynamic between her and her classmate is preserved (There's a difference between not letting a stranger assign you weird nicknames and use overly-friendly addresses, to not letting them break basic decorum; Like calling a stranger "gurl" vs. not calling her by name).

The only changes are that her rebuke goes from an explicit order not to refer to her with a specific word, to a more indirect expression of her objection- and that in the raw, she implicitly tells him to be more respectful generally, while in the translation, she implicitly tells him to call her by name. This translation is an objective improvement by any sensible measure. The only thing missing is cluing people in to the fact that it's not just Ruri herself that considers being called by anything other than her name rude, but rather that it's actually a cultural thing in Japan as a whole. But that's going above and beyond the contents of the line, and the job of a translator.

I'm all for being an unlikeable dickhead on the internet, but can you at least listen to what people are saying? Because you literally took a third of what I said, then ran with it, instead of sitting down and paying attention. This isn't what she says, but it's how she said it, and what she meant.

 

[hellyeboi6]

Yes. I'm aware butchering material is the industry standard. We're all familiar with the fact that these writers don't actually speak the language, or care for the original. We have examples both trivial and egregious to show that they're not interested in actually doing the work, and rather see this as a chance to make their own content, and push their own ideologies.


I knew you'd get like this despite the fact that I gave your little challenge serious thought. Still, it's disappointing to see you're precisely as "classy" as I expected.

The line works because (In order of importance):

1) We perfectly preserve his.
2) We don't add ridiculous slang where there isn't any.
3) We retain the issue of the rude address.
4) We retain the exact tone of the reprimand.
5) We retain the exact issue in question (it's rude not to call people by their names).
6) The exact solution to the issue is the same (Calling her by name).
7) The social dynamic between her and her classmate is preserved (There's a difference between not letting a stranger assign you weird nicknames and use overly-friendly addresses, to not letting them break basic decorum; Like calling a stranger "gurl" vs. not calling her by name).

The only changes are that her rebuke goes from an explicit order not to refer to her with a specific word, to a more indirect expression of her objection- and that in the raw, she implicitly tells him to be more respectful generally, while in the translation, she implicitly tells him to call her by name. This translation is an objective improvement by any sensible measure. The only thing missing is cluing people in to the fact that it's not just Ruri herself that considers being called by anything other than her name rude, but rather that it's actually a cultural thing in Japan as a whole. But that's going above and beyond the contents of the line, and the job of a translator.

I'm all for being an unlikeable dickhead on the internet, but can you at least listen to what people are saying? Because you literally took a third of what I said, then ran with it, instead of sitting down and paying attention. This isn't what she says, but it's how she said it, and what she meant.

You go on this huge tirade to justify your shitty translation and then refuse to acknowledge my very factual criticism? Not once in this entire papyrus I've seen you tackle the ONE (1) issue I've highlighted: Ruri wouldn't talk like that, she's not the kind of person that would scold someone for forgetting her name, because she herself is horrible with names. Your translation makes Ruri sound like a hypocrite, while in the raw she's not.
And then you have the gall to say that I'm not listening to what you say. You gotta do better than that, my sweet "unlikeable dickhead" (you called yourself that, not me lol). Either way this discussion is over, it's clear you don't understand english, or have the intelligence to pick up on subtext or context, which in turns makes every single one of your nitpicks not only insanely petty but also wrong (still LOLing at you believing that Ruri actually hates people in the en translation).

Whatever, I don't really need you to agree with me, you're just in it to waste some time and maybe annoy some people. All I care about is that if anyone stumbles across this thread they get to see just how ridiculous your claims are. So people (other than this velox dude) that are reading this, just read the Viz translation, it's fine.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

You go on this huge tirade to justify your shitty translation

Yeah, you're not fluent in Japanese. N5 isn't the highest level of mastery, it's the lowest.

Not once in this entire papyrus I've seen you tackle the ONE (1) issue I've highlighted: Ruri wouldn't talk like that, she's not the kind of person that would scold someone for forgetting her name, because she herself is horrible with names. Your translation makes Ruri sound like a hypocrite, while in the raw she's not.

She's telling him to not address her with お前. In other words: She's telling him to be more polite. How are you more polite in Japanese when referring to someone? Plenty of ways. Which one does it share with English? Referring to people by name. Ruri knows this, and does her best to be polite. She just sucks at it. Don't know if you noticed either one of those. The translation doesn't have her scolding him for forgetting her name- it scolds him for not using it. No attempt was even made. He just went with a "Hey you". You'll notice she tries to use names.

All this rambling about how it's a "Shitty translation", but the real question is how this is worse than the one that doesn't preserve the issue, and changes not one, but two lines, to add in cringy slang that isn't there.

And then you have the gall to say that I'm not listening to what you say. You gotta do better than that, my sweet "unlikeable dickhead" (you called yourself that, not me lol). Either way this discussion is over, it's clear you don't understand english, or have the intelligence to pick up on subtext or context, which in turns makes every single one of your nitpicks not only insanely petty but also wrong (still LOLing at you believing that Ruri actually hates people in the en translation).

You: "I listen to what you say"
Also you: "You think Ruri hates people in the rewrite!"

It's weird how self-righteous you're getting here when you either have no actual standards for quality, or can't actually assess quality in the first place. The "professional" turns a guy breaking decorum into some kid busting out slang, you think it's "fine". When the autist keeps the issue of decorum, and saves at least one of the lines, it's "shitty".

Whatever, I don't really need you to agree with me, you're just in it to waste some time and maybe annoy some people. All I care about is that if anyone stumbles across this thread they get to see just how ridiculous your claims are. So people (other than this velox dude) that are reading this, just read the Viz translation, it's fine.

I think you're just here to convince yourself you're the smartest guy in the room. This thread had died ages ago. All the points had been hashed out, and everything that had to be said, was. Your only contribution was the お前 challenge. When it was answered, you flipped the table and started crying.

 

[YamiryuuZero]

Fan scanlation teams are quick to call official translations bad but forget a really important fact: official translators, unlike scanlations, are not allowed to use TLN as a crutch.

Alright, I'm gonna call bullshit on this one.
The Mahou Sensei Negima! and Cardcaptor Sakura official releases in Brazil both used translator notes and glossaries at the end of the manga to give readers relevant information regarding cultural and linguistic differences.

Who said official translators can't use TLN? That's making the best out of the media you operate in to deliver the best possible translation. A good localization is about conveying the intent behind the original script to an audience that is not equipped with the necessary knowledge to comprehend the language it was originally written in, but if you can use translation notes to equip that audience with some of the knowledge, not only will it make the process easier so you don't have to rewrite something that can't be properly translated, you also have the added bonus of making it a teaching moment to your audience.

If official translators use it and there are tangible benefits, why would you claim TLN are a crutch?