Shidenkai no Maki - Vol. 1 Ch. 1 - My First Sky
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>Ki-61 being able to keep up with and destroy P-38s (and later Spitfires)
LOL, what "GRORIOUS NIPPON SUPERIOR OF FILTHY GAIJIN" wishful thinking this is. Considering how much faster P-38Ls were (about 50 knots faster at 10,000 higher feet, no less) and they weren't made of rice paper soaked in gasoline - it's no wonder that very few combat loses from Japanese fighters occurred in the PTO. Just from searching pacificwrecks.com which has a day-by-day combat record of the PTO (including sources from Japan, Australia, British, and American sources) - I can't find any confirmed kill of a P-38 by Ki-61s. Maybe I missed it, but even if I did, I can guarantee you that more P-38s were lost to ferrying flights than to all Ki-61s. This is the same aircraft that was most "infamous" for being used to ram B-29s late in the war.
>N1K2 (which, granted, was a dangerous and well-designed aircraft that could actually compete with late-war Allied fighters... unlike the Hein) piloted by a girl sitting on top of another girl while holding a rabbit and not even strapped in manages to out-maneuver multiple Spitfires
...Japan. Japan, plz...
And at least Girls und Panzer addressed the whole "girls shooting at each with live ammo" bit SOMEWHAT by stating that safety devices were designed and used and at least you have armor protecting you. Any actual machine gun fire is not going to be negated by aircraft "armor." And we all know how well-armored WW2 Japanese aircraft were... I'd definitely have no qualms about receiving machine gun and cannon fire in one of them, wouldn't you? (Makes you wonder if they skipped the bit where Motoko was using a sponge and shop-vac to clean the previous owner out of the cockpit and hoping Maki didn't pay too much attention to the patched holes in the fuselage...)
This manga is such utter trash. [continues reading it eagerly]
LOL, what "GRORIOUS NIPPON SUPERIOR OF FILTHY GAIJIN" wishful thinking this is. Considering how much faster P-38Ls were (about 50 knots faster at 10,000 higher feet, no less) and they weren't made of rice paper soaked in gasoline - it's no wonder that very few combat loses from Japanese fighters occurred in the PTO. Just from searching pacificwrecks.com which has a day-by-day combat record of the PTO (including sources from Japan, Australia, British, and American sources) - I can't find any confirmed kill of a P-38 by Ki-61s. Maybe I missed it, but even if I did, I can guarantee you that more P-38s were lost to ferrying flights than to all Ki-61s. This is the same aircraft that was most "infamous" for being used to ram B-29s late in the war.
>N1K2 (which, granted, was a dangerous and well-designed aircraft that could actually compete with late-war Allied fighters... unlike the Hein) piloted by a girl sitting on top of another girl while holding a rabbit and not even strapped in manages to out-maneuver multiple Spitfires
...Japan. Japan, plz...
And at least Girls und Panzer addressed the whole "girls shooting at each with live ammo" bit SOMEWHAT by stating that safety devices were designed and used and at least you have armor protecting you. Any actual machine gun fire is not going to be negated by aircraft "armor." And we all know how well-armored WW2 Japanese aircraft were... I'd definitely have no qualms about receiving machine gun and cannon fire in one of them, wouldn't you? (Makes you wonder if they skipped the bit where Motoko was using a sponge and shop-vac to clean the previous owner out of the cockpit and hoping Maki didn't pay too much attention to the patched holes in the fuselage...)
This manga is such utter trash. [continues reading it eagerly]
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@definitionofinsanity
Isn't this the opposite - they let Spitfire pass?
Isn't it because it wasn't navy's aircraft?
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@kwendy
Well, Spitfires are faster than Ki-61s or N1Ks to begin with (even the pre-war early Merlin-engine models were faster). It's... incredibly damn difficult to tell, especially with so many variants of the Spitfire looking similar and being upgrades or modifications of other models... But the one here looks to be an LF Mark IX based on the engine cowling, armament, and wind radiator and carburetor layout. I could easily (very easily) be wrong, but if it is that was also one of the THE fastest Spitfires that wasn't powered by a Griffon engine (which many think are no longer Spitfires) or wasn't just a pure aerial reconnaissance variant.
To add to that, another reason that they passed is because the girl piloting it did a snap roll or high-G barrel roll (it's... difficult to tell when so much of the movement only happens in like 3-4 panels). Meaning she wanted the Spitfires to overshoot so she was behind them.
And, realistically, at that period in the war... There wouldn't be much of an opportunity for a Ki-61 pilot to do so. American intelligence had already gotten their hands on the Alaskan Zero, found its secrets and weaknesses, and developed tactics against them. At that point P-38s and Hellcats and eventually F4Us were in the air and American pilots knew how to utilize them against even more capable aircraft than the Ki-61 (of which there was plenty, there's a reason why most Ki-61s erm... were used as ordnance... if you get my drift). It was hunting season and the Ki-61 was waaaaay low on the food chain. Not to say P-38s, F6F Hellcats, F4U Corsairs, Spitfires, ect. were invincible. They weren't. They just really had no need to be that concerned about Ki-61s because their tactical training and flight profile meant that they posed as much risk to them as mice do to birds of prey... That being virtually none. American, British, ect. aircraft would just use energy fighting tactics and be much more faster than they could even be at at higher altitudes. You can't fight math and physics with sheer bravery. The Japanese tried, lord knows.
Well, Spitfires are faster than Ki-61s or N1Ks to begin with (even the pre-war early Merlin-engine models were faster). It's... incredibly damn difficult to tell, especially with so many variants of the Spitfire looking similar and being upgrades or modifications of other models... But the one here looks to be an LF Mark IX based on the engine cowling, armament, and wind radiator and carburetor layout. I could easily (very easily) be wrong, but if it is that was also one of the THE fastest Spitfires that wasn't powered by a Griffon engine (which many think are no longer Spitfires) or wasn't just a pure aerial reconnaissance variant.
To add to that, another reason that they passed is because the girl piloting it did a snap roll or high-G barrel roll (it's... difficult to tell when so much of the movement only happens in like 3-4 panels). Meaning she wanted the Spitfires to overshoot so she was behind them.
Nope. They have sources and citations even from Japanese (both IJN and IJA, IIRC). Anything that had a source was listed. American and foreign non-navy aircraft as well. That's why P-38 wrecks are listed in their database. Basically anything with a paper, in English, Japanese or otherwise, is included.
And, realistically, at that period in the war... There wouldn't be much of an opportunity for a Ki-61 pilot to do so. American intelligence had already gotten their hands on the Alaskan Zero, found its secrets and weaknesses, and developed tactics against them. At that point P-38s and Hellcats and eventually F4Us were in the air and American pilots knew how to utilize them against even more capable aircraft than the Ki-61 (of which there was plenty, there's a reason why most Ki-61s erm... were used as ordnance... if you get my drift). It was hunting season and the Ki-61 was waaaaay low on the food chain. Not to say P-38s, F6F Hellcats, F4U Corsairs, Spitfires, ect. were invincible. They weren't. They just really had no need to be that concerned about Ki-61s because their tactical training and flight profile meant that they posed as much risk to them as mice do to birds of prey... That being virtually none. American, British, ect. aircraft would just use energy fighting tactics and be much more faster than they could even be at at higher altitudes. You can't fight math and physics with sheer bravery. The Japanese tried, lord knows.
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@definitionofinsanity Well there you have it: the festest could not slow down enough to stay on average's six.
Well, I don't intend to dwelve deep into those sources, I just want to clarify the possibility of having incomplete picture of events by just wreckages findings.
Speaking of sources, it might be more useful to have aircraft used type and air superiority areas of the time mapped. AFAIK the war was not one-sided, to the point where lack or resources made more impact then technological discrepancy. Speaking of, technically, the planes were in the same technological era: more powerful does not automatically makes it invincible.
And as for combat tactics, sure, but it does not apply to schoolgirls portrayed in this manga. I am not pulling "this is not realistic depiction" card, it's just that in-universe pilots are not exactly aces.
Well, I don't intend to dwelve deep into those sources, I just want to clarify the possibility of having incomplete picture of events by just wreckages findings.
Speaking of sources, it might be more useful to have aircraft used type and air superiority areas of the time mapped. AFAIK the war was not one-sided, to the point where lack or resources made more impact then technological discrepancy. Speaking of, technically, the planes were in the same technological era: more powerful does not automatically makes it invincible.
And as for combat tactics, sure, but it does not apply to schoolgirls portrayed in this manga. I am not pulling "this is not realistic depiction" card, it's just that in-universe pilots are not exactly aces.
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@kwendy
If you're fighting where the enemy wants you to fight, you're already losing. Which is why energy fighting became standard for the Allies (and Germans) in both theaters of the war. "Boom and zoom"ing, otherwise. Get higher/faster (more energy/booming) than the enemy, dive down on them, and climb back up (zooming away) to do it again. It also presents a better and larger target than being behind the enemy, as well.
So it doesn't really make sense. The aircraft in question can just outrun or outclimb the Japanese aircraft in question.
Also, yes, if you can dictate how the enemy has to fight you and can hit them without a real way to hit back, like energy fighting, then you are as good as flying around invincible. There's a reason why Japanese losses were so devastating past 1943. And a lack of well-trained pilots wasn't the only issue. There's a reason why Japan was also looking into energy fighting in order to get onto an "even" playing field. But by that time, it was already too late.
Don't need to. In fact, that's the game that the Japanese WANTED to play, because their aircraft could maneuver so much better for the most part. And that's what killed many F4F Wildcat pilots early on.
If you're fighting where the enemy wants you to fight, you're already losing. Which is why energy fighting became standard for the Allies (and Germans) in both theaters of the war. "Boom and zoom"ing, otherwise. Get higher/faster (more energy/booming) than the enemy, dive down on them, and climb back up (zooming away) to do it again. It also presents a better and larger target than being behind the enemy, as well.
So it doesn't really make sense. The aircraft in question can just outrun or outclimb the Japanese aircraft in question.
It's not findings. A lot of those wrecks have never been found. But we have literally millions of pages of documents from the ground crew, commanders, pilots, ect. detailing what happened. If someone dropped a grilled cheese sandwich in flight, it was probably documented (okay, maybe not, but you get my point). And, again, we have the Japanese accounts as well as our own. Meaning we can find out if they were in that area and shot at anything or not or whether it was just a loss of an aircraft due to non-combat reasons.
Unfortunately, by 1944, it very much was. Look at the loss rates the Japanese were sustaining. Losses that they couldn't even take in the first place. It was basically a forgone conclusion that Japan was going to lose as soon as America entered the war. Admiral Yamamoto even said as much and almost predicted it exactly: "I can run wild for six months ... after that, I have no expectation of success." And he was right. The first 6 months of American involvement in the pacific was hell and fraught with failures. But what happened exactly 6 months after Pearl Harbor? The Battle of Midway. And it was all downhill from there for the Japanese. Just as Yamamoto predicted.
Well, not really. During WW2 most of what the Japanese had in inventory was pre-war. And in just the span of a few years, gigantic leaps in aeronautics were made. It wasn't until during the war that the P-38's compression issues were solved, for instance, despite it being a pre-war plane initially (that was upgraded and was the ONLY (American) aircraft made pre-war to be continued in production until the end of the war). Look at carrier aircraft. We went into WW2 with the lackluster F4F Wildcat. We exited it with the F4U and F6F and were already looking at jet engine designs. In the span of about 4 years.
Also, yes, if you can dictate how the enemy has to fight you and can hit them without a real way to hit back, like energy fighting, then you are as good as flying around invincible. There's a reason why Japanese losses were so devastating past 1943. And a lack of well-trained pilots wasn't the only issue. There's a reason why Japan was also looking into energy fighting in order to get onto an "even" playing field. But by that time, it was already too late.
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@definitionofinsanity 343rd Naval Air Group claimed they did just fine with equal numbers and with enough fuel.
Also... Can you share decent source with specifications of Spitfire and Shidenkai? I can't seem to find the one with big discrepancy in the performance.
Also... Can you share decent source with specifications of Spitfire and Shidenkai? I can't seem to find the one with big discrepancy in the performance.
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@kwendy
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spittest.html
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-IX.html
Ki-84:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-84-156A.pdf
N1K1-J:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/George-107A.pdf
Ki-61:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-61-154A.pdf
One thing to keep in mind with Japanese aircraft performance: There's two datasets. Occasionally the original Japanese, and the Allied testing and evaluation/foreign equipment testing data. And there's a problem with that. Namely not a lot of Japanese technical data survived the war. Also, the Japanese tended to have worse quality and lower octane rated fuel than the Americans/British. And a lot of the testing that was done with Japanese aircraft for intelligence and foreign equipment evaluation was done with higher octane American/British fuel. The N1K test appears to have used Japanese ~91 octane fuel (although the inclusion of methanol seems suspect, that's generally used for WEP. The Americans, British, Germans and IIRC the Russians had methanol/water injection, but I've never heard of it being used by the Japanese during the war in their combat operational fighters) for the performance figures. Which means it's probably much more in line with what it was actually capable of.
They really didn't. They had some encounters with USN fighters and were able to score kills on Hellcats/Corsairs in 1945 but ultimately lost more pilots and aircraft than they could afford. And when you consider that they were equipped with N1Ks and still were, at best, holding their own... That's not a good sign. Also, the problem is that "with equal numbers." All of the Japanese island didn't have equal numbers of pilots and aircraft compared to the Allies. No military force on earth is going to tell their militaries to stand down and make it a "fair" fight.
Spit:
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spittest.html
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-IX.html
Ki-84:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-84-156A.pdf
N1K1-J:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/George-107A.pdf
Ki-61:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-61-154A.pdf
One thing to keep in mind with Japanese aircraft performance: There's two datasets. Occasionally the original Japanese, and the Allied testing and evaluation/foreign equipment testing data. And there's a problem with that. Namely not a lot of Japanese technical data survived the war. Also, the Japanese tended to have worse quality and lower octane rated fuel than the Americans/British. And a lot of the testing that was done with Japanese aircraft for intelligence and foreign equipment evaluation was done with higher octane American/British fuel. The N1K test appears to have used Japanese ~91 octane fuel (although the inclusion of methanol seems suspect, that's generally used for WEP. The Americans, British, Germans and IIRC the Russians had methanol/water injection, but I've never heard of it being used by the Japanese during the war in their combat operational fighters) for the performance figures. Which means it's probably much more in line with what it was actually capable of.
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@definitionofinsanity OK, you reallly are straying out of topic. First of all, aircraft number speak against your case, because guess what - overwhelming numbers naturally take less losses, planes with no fuel take more losses and it does not evaluate individual aircraft prowess. I specifically said "in same numbers and with fuel" - if some corsairs for example destroyed shiden on the airfield it does not mean corsairs are ultimately better.
Also I am pretty sure we can throw fuel difference out in our particular setting.
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I won't dwell into particular cases because it needs factchecking, I've read debut shiden air battle was "flawless victory" but I have no idea if true. It's not agains spitfires anyway.
Also I am pretty sure we can throw fuel difference out in our particular setting.
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I won't dwell into particular cases because it needs factchecking, I've read debut shiden air battle was "flawless victory" but I have no idea if true. It's not agains spitfires anyway.
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@kwendy
Also, it's not a defense, either. Japan chose when and how they got into the war. Japan chose their strategic and tactical doctrines. Japan chose what to focus industry on. They made bad choices. It lost them the war. And everyone basically agrees the Japanese leadership made ASTOUNDINGLY dumb choices. Starting, often, with Pearl Harbor to begin with and thinking their "shock and awe" strategy would demoralize the Americans and bring them to the table without an all-out war, which was probably the most flawed cultural calculation in modern history.
...aaaand even then, it doesn't matter. One of the best Japanese aces, Kaneyoshi Muto, was still shot down and killed at the controls of his N1K2 in one of the 343rd's sorties. War is not a single skirmish, not even or equal. Shit, even in this manga there are uneven fights.
I'm only responding to and addressing what you bring up with relative points. Don't forget you're the one that brought up the 343rd as being relevant.
This is called "having your cake and eating it." You don't get to cite that the 343rd "was just fine when they had equal numbers" (which, again, they didn't - no battle or conflict in human history has been "equal") and then argue that their loss rates are somehow inflated due to being outnumbered. You can't have it both ways.
Also, it's not a defense, either. Japan chose when and how they got into the war. Japan chose their strategic and tactical doctrines. Japan chose what to focus industry on. They made bad choices. It lost them the war. And everyone basically agrees the Japanese leadership made ASTOUNDINGLY dumb choices. Starting, often, with Pearl Harbor to begin with and thinking their "shock and awe" strategy would demoralize the Americans and bring them to the table without an all-out war, which was probably the most flawed cultural calculation in modern history.
Um, okay? I never said the Japanese or 343rd didn't have fuel or "the N1K and the 343rd were terrible cuz their empty planes got strafed and bombed." So why you're arguing against something I never said is puzzling to me.
Depends on what they jumped on and how. Likely it was successful because who got jumped didn't know they were there (which is standard for WW2 aerial battles, the initial sign of enemies attacking you with being shot at without you seeing them beforehand) due to their longer operational range than what they thought was possible thus thinking they were relatively safe. And absolutely no one is going to be impressed if you just downed some unescorted bombers or recon planes like Kingfishers.
...aaaand even then, it doesn't matter. One of the best Japanese aces, Kaneyoshi Muto, was still shot down and killed at the controls of his N1K2 in one of the 343rd's sorties. War is not a single skirmish, not even or equal. Shit, even in this manga there are uneven fights.
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@definitionofinsanity
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You're constantly trying to stick to particular words out of context and it has no meaning in the frame of this conversation.
Because they were the onces who used Shiden to some degree of success.
You're basically stating that shiden cannot compete in 1v1 situation because of strategic reasons. Wich is wierd to say the least.
f6f and f4u's were main opponents if I understand correctly.
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You're constantly trying to stick to particular words out of context and it has no meaning in the frame of this conversation.
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