Tag labelling system

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@AbyssalMonkey @Vofuro I don't think "As for isekai, all isekai hinges around one idea: the utilization of other worldly knowledge" is a good definition for isekai.

In Shield Hero, Naofumi barely uses his past memories throughout the anime but, at the end of s1, we know why "from another world" aspect is important.

If you can stretch the logic out a bit, Re: Creators is a reverse-isekai where characters from another world gets transported to this world, and none of them use their memories from their world but rather their skills. Memories only serve for character development and have no major ties to the plot.

And if you can go out even more, Alice in Wonderland is technically an isekai by modern day anime standards and the only reason isekai is important is to serve as the source of tension in the narrative as "will Alice return home?"

Also, a manga example. Takarakuji de 40 oku Atatta ndakedo Isekai ni Ijuu Suru is an isekai where MC walks through a portal in his house to get to the other world. The only reason "isekai" is important is cause MC is rich and buys things from here to bring to the other world, that's it.

Isekai, by traditional definition, just means "the usage of 'from another world' as a plot point". What AbyssalMonkey is essentially trying to do is to tell the world "screw traditional definition, I say that bad isekai shouldn't be isekai!" which most of the world is gonna struggle to carry on with adapting.

I say stick with the traditional def or spread a huge campaign to convert the heretics.

 

[Teasday]

Re: the point that "isekai" is reducible to a combination of other tags:

True, but a major point of the tags is to offer convenient searchability. As dumb as the genre is, it was the first new tag addition we had because it was the single most widely requested tag back when it didn't exist.

 

[Vofuro]

Ahhh dangit. I can see your point of views, and your examples are obviously isekais, too, but according to that definition a ton of stuff that's not usually isekai is isekai, too.
Like everything where the MC is forcefully dragged into hell, for example. Or everything where someone jumped back into time. And you mention Alice in Wonderland, which obviously, like you say, can be isekai then, too.
And I'm not sure I'm fine with that, because most isekai tend to follow this schema which it's known for. World Travel, OP powers and/or knowledge of contemporary Japanese, and all that.
I'd rather have one term for the usual isekai and another for the stuff that's just using world travel as a plot device.

So how about we add the point that it's either "uses knowledge from his former life" AND/OR "uses a cheat ability (possibly granted by the gods)" AND/OR that "their former identity is a major plot reason in the story." Can we cover pretty much anything then?

Also, I still don't count Paladin is an isekai. It's because he's got nearly no memories and he's essentially like any other character in the manga: He grew up here, he uses the knowledge he learned and nothing else, and if you had crossed out the literally two or three pages where it's told that he was reincarnated from a former world, it would change exactly nothing in the whole manga. I need to reread it (which I'll gladly do) to check whether it was even said he was reincarnated from the contemporary, japanese world. And the argument "it's badly written" doesn't even apply to this masterpiece


Edit: Aaand yeah, while writing that I missed the post above. So here's my edit:

Using their knowledge they bring new perspectives into the world and contrast those with the currently existing ones.

Sounds reasonable, too. I like it. But according to that one, a lot of isekai where the people actively do nothing with their knowledge is isekai, too. Like the let's-drop-them-to-hell manga. We'd need some additional requirement. See above possibly?

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@AbyssalMonkey

Isekai is the bringing of a character into a new world. Using their knowledge they bring new perspectives into the world and contrast those with the currently existing ones.

This would be a really good definition... if it's not broken.

Unfortunately, I just happen to have one example which breaks your definition: Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha - a fantasy manga which uses reincarnation as a plot device in order to have MC be in a setting where the magical world has weaken over time thus making him the most powerful being in the world, however, this is not an isekai. (p.s. I've only read chapter 1 don't spoil it)

I agree that good isekai should have "from another world' as a theme rather than a plot point but unfortunately, a lot of newbie WN writers don't understand how to write well and through dumb luck get their stories animated.

--Just thought about it, by this definition SAO: Alicization also counts as an isekai which arguably isn't cause SAO as a whole is just players playing a game so why does a single arc get special treatment and count as an isekai meanwhile the rest of the franchise does not?

You did a good job dissecting and disproving my argument tho, really great argument. I really enjoyed reading through it.

---Alright I just read your other reply.

That is literally the point. Isekai as a genre has to be divorced from the idea of "transported to a new world" plot device.

I really like where you're going with this but the change is way too radical and will confuse old readers. It's also unloyal to the Japanese literal definition of "other world" - which imo isn't a problem but I'm sure some people will be triggered over this for the most petty of reasons.


@Vofuro

"uses knowledge from his former life" AND/OR "uses a cheat ability (possibly granted by the gods)" AND/OR that "their former identity is a major plot reason in the story."

I feel like these are isekai tropes rather than genre-defining features.

Also thx for the rec I'll check Paladin out.

 

[Vofuro]

So, essentially, what you guys are saying is that isekai as a genre should be more general, including pretty much everything that crosses from one world into another.
And that it's a more a theme when it's used as a plot device?

I ... have to say while it may be technical correct definition, it'll catch a lot that's not isekai for me, as well as for others. Maybe do two tags then? One "isekai" as it's momentarily in trend right now, with common tropes added in the description (because they are tropes, but they are so common it's nearly defining the genre as it is) and one "world/space travel" that covers stuff like time travel (Red River), hell travel (Into the Abyss, Mairimashita! Iruma-kun) and stuff like that.

Because honestly, it's about what people want to search. One is traditional stuff, the other is the stuff with videogames and fantasy elements and OP powers. If you want to read the one thing, you'll be annoyed for the other. Yes? No? Other suggestions?

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
actually BestBoy mentioned Paladin first, but nevertheless, have fun with it

I actually reread it, too (just the first two chapters) and I can see why it got tagged as isekai. Even if it was never said who he was when he was reincarnated, he kept some of his education and was thus half a child genius. It's just, another couple of chapters in it never really appears again or does it?

 

[BestBoy]

@Vofuro For Red River, we've already got the time travel theme tag.

I think with things like hell and heaven it's commonly understood that they are part of this world for some reason. Though, if there are a lot of manga with heaven/hell as a location, I think a tag could be warranted. Right now, Iruma doesn't have isekai as a tag which seems correct. Isekai is often almost like dimensional travel. It's definitely a messy tag, but pigeon-holing it leaves out things that are undeniably isekai.

 

[Vofuro]

Soooo~ let's take AbyssalMonkeys description then?

Isekai:
Isekai is the bringing of a character into a new world. Using their knowledge they bring new perspectives into the world and contrast those with the currently existing ones.

But can we add in that they were forcefully brought into the world? And that it's not a part of their known world?
Otherweise that definition would include time travel, just saying. And parallel worlds, now that I think about it...

 

[BestBoy]

@Vofuro Don't really like that description either, tbh. Like I said, there are manga where characters don't use knowledge from their original worlds. Additionally, there are manga where the characters are sent to a new world as part of a plan, like Sentouin, Hakenshimasu! I think something along the lines of:

Isekai is the bringing of a character into a new, different world where they must adjust to their new life.

It needs to be kept as simple and broad as possible.

I can't think of any parallel world manga where the world is different enough to be considered new.

 

[Vofuro]

@BestBoy
allright, so. "new, different world" covers the whole - we do not mean hell or any parallel stuff. I can get behind that.
Still want to put the forceful transportation thingie in, but can't think of any manga where they voluntary make such a journey in not-isekai... also, there are some isekai where they do have the choice to reincarnate in new world or not.
Eh.

+1 that isekai description, if it doesn't work out, we can adapt it later on.

----------------

Now onto the stuff missing. I just marked stuff I figure will be a discussion like isekai to define. (Also, can we ahm, borrow some descriptions of mangaupdates, with source obviously?)

Sexual Violence, Gore
Long Strip, Adaptation, Web Comic, Full Color, Official Colored,Anthology, Award Winning, Fan Colored, Oneshot, User Created
Sports, Tragedy, Crime, Superhero, Philosophical, Thriller, Wuxia, Isekai, Magical Girls, Shounen Ai, Slice of Life, Shoujo Ai

Genderswap, Gyaru, Monster Girls, Shota, Loli, Traditional Games, Reincarnation
Reverse Harem and Harem: Reverse Harem doesn't have a description, the Harem description doesn't define the gender and would cover Reverse Harem, actually.

I just want to point out that the loli and shota tag deserve a note, that, when they appear in combination with an ecchi/smut tag, the featured children may be sexualised. I so want to add that, it confused the hell out of me.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Just a final edit on the isekai description, not all isekai includes protagonists being stuck in the other world. Plenty of isekais have MCs trying to return to their home world after completing their goals so "adjust to a new life" is too narrow. I like the original better. I'll try to merge these two along with my definition.

Spoiler

"Anything that includes a character being suddenly transported into a foreign world, no matter the method, can be classified as isekai."

"Isekai is the bringing of a character into a new world. Using their knowledge they bring new perspectives into the world and contrast those with the currently existing ones."

"Isekai is the bringing of a character into a new, different world where they must adjust to their new life."

Isekai is the transportation of a character from their home world to a foreign one at which they must adapt to the cultures of the new world. Using their past knowledge, skills, and/or personality, they can bring new perspectives to this world through words and actions.

 

[Vofuro]

Yeah, I'd say that's a solid description. Could you perhaps add in your original post a list of all the missing descriptions and add in any that we agreed on?

I think there are only three or so problematic ones, the rest should be easy to define. But I for one couldn't explain Wuxia or Gyaru really. Now that I think about it, there should be an explanation, even if it's not exact, for Gyaru a couple posts back? I'll search for it and quote it in an edit.

here's it:

Gyaru is a rejection of the traditional Japanese woman so characters that are gyaru often have different opinions regarding traditional Japanese values. That's kind of how it's relevant to plot or story.

by bestboy

Sooo - "Gyaru is a trend in fashion and mind that rejects the traditional image of the Japanese woman. Girls in Gyaru often have different views and opinions on japanese values."
Oh god and I'm so sorry but I can't stand the visuals of that wiki page. Further (rather short) research just agrees that it's a thing of self-confident young woman and tons of fashion.

 

[BestBoy]

@Vofuro It's certainly not the easiest wiki to look at, but it's by far the most comprehensive gyaru wiki I've come across. It's really, really interesting to read from a fashion POV.

 

[Vofuro]

@BestBoy
I don't get fashion. Please do not torture me with things I don't get by using those visuals xD (I'm a visuals snob. I admit it. Let's crucify Comic Sans any day)

So, as it's essentially your definition, can we use it? You are the only one who ever commented on Gyaru, after all

 

[BestBoy]

@Vofuro I think the way you reworded it is good. Well, there's also Gyaru-oh (male gyaru), but I don't think there's any manga that include such characters so it's not a big deal right now. It's got a similar aspect of nonconformity and rejection of tradition to it, as well.

 

[Vofuro]

Alright.
Here's the list and the descripitions we've got for now

Stuff that's missing a description:
Sexual Violence, Gore
Long Strip, Adaptation, Web Comic, Full Color, Official Colored,Anthology, Award Winning, Fan Colored, Oneshot, User Created
Sports, Tragedy, Crime, Superhero, Philosophical, Thriller, Wuxia, Isekai, Magical Girls, Shounen Ai, Slice of Life, Shoujo Ai
Genderswap, Gyaru, Monster Girls, Shota, Loli, Traditional Games, Reincarnation
Reverse Harem and Harem: Reverse Harem doesn't have a description, the Harem description doesn't define the gender and would cover Reverse Harem, actually.

Everything marked is something we should at least still cover, because the rest shouldn't be that hard to define and some genres especially could be possibly covered via BakaUpdates?
I can't do Wuxia and I'm not sure about Traditional Games and what they entail, but the rest I know, more or less.

-------
Descriptions hard fought and won:
Isekai:

Isekai is the transportation of a character from their home world to a foreign one at which they must adapt to the cultures of the new world. Using their past knowledge, skills, and/or personality, they can bring new perspectives to this world through words and actions.

Gyaru:

Gyaru is a trend in fashion and mind that rejects the traditional image of the Japanese woman. Girls in Gyaru often have different views and opinions on japanese values.

 

[Aurinne]

Related/additional suggestion:

As well as adding or improving descriptions, I strongly support the suggestion of having the descriptions more easily/obviously viewable to everyone.

There's currently a large problem with the "hentai" tag being used for yaoi: People who wish to screen out sexually explicit/near-explicit content tend label a lot of yaoi as "hentai", while people who wish view the majority of yaoi that includes sex scenes but would consider it story-with-sex rather than porn AND wish screen out porn by excluding "hentai" take the hentai tag off these ones. The result is that many yaoi readers miss out on yaoi because it's labelled hentai, while many who are trying to avoid sexually explicit/near-explict scenes still get many yaoi like this in their feed that haven't been labelled hentai. (I'm one of the many who miss out on yaoi because of the hentai tag. 🙁) However, yaoi readers and uploaders probably do need to be aware of any other appropriate tags (perhaps "smut") that could be used more appropriately instead of hentai so that others can still screen effectively with additional tags.

So, in order to have the "hentai" and other tags work effectively rather than as poorly as they currently do for these two groups, having clear and obvious/easy-to-find descriptions of the tags would help for uploaders and readers trying to screen by excluding certain tags. I've looked and I can't find descriptions of ANY of the tags (I don't know how that poster earlier got to that genre description page, because I tried). Ergo: It needs to be easier to find and view this information.

In this case, the clearly-defined/easy-to-see tags need to be: hentai, smut, yaoi (because I wonder why anyone's surprised reading yaoi and finding such scenes), any other tags to do with sex or nudity. This way, most yaoi won't be incorrectly labelled as hentai but can still have other tags that people can use to effectively exclude them.

However, my main point is that all tag descriptions should be really easy to find from the main page (if not directly from the main page, then directly from one of the sub-pages, such as "titles" or "search" from the "manga" drop-down menu. This would also help to minimise similar problems with other tags/genres generally.

(I posted this here because this seems to have already been brought up in this thread. It does feel like a separate suggestion to the discussion about how to define tags, though, so sorry if it'd better in a separate thread.)