The elephant in the room in another world: Analyzing Isekai Tropes and how to Deconstruct them

[panzerkampfwagyu]

I think we are all aware that Isekai, by virtue of being a really popular genre in the lands of Japan, is flooded with really terrible stories that aren't worth the paper or the bytes they are written on, but get viewed regardless.
With that, the Generic Milquetoast 08/15 Isekai story, has amassed some tropes that are heavily associated with it, some less, some really fecked up.

Things like the Slave Harems, false underdog OP protagonists, really weird Japanese Nationalism in regards to rice and Soy Sauce, failing at deconstructing the classic fantasy by making the humans the bad guys and the demons the absolute good guys, etc.

Now then, this thread is for Collecting Tropes you find issue with, Brainstorming ideas of how to potentially deconstruct these tropes and get some cool concepts out.

Note that a proper Deconstruction requires thought and isn't as easy "Oh, we switch colors", here is an useful video on the topic:

And for the purposes of this thread, until someone decides to make a specialised thread for it, Otome Villianess stories qualify for this thread.

 

[cheekibreeki]

I haven't really seen any series in recent years that discusses what happens to an Isekai protagonist's family when they die.

Maybe only Isekai-ojisan, and he woke up after a decades-long coma with his family paying his medical bills.

 

[GipoScribantino]

Some easy ones:

• Ranks going F-A then S
• Currencies never have fractional values

On ranks:
The concept of ranks wouldn't be a problem on itself, because it makes sense to use something to indicate how good someone is at completing requests.
The issue is that ranks are assigned based on bogus parameters: often to go from G to F the MC just needs to complete a fixed number of requests, then from F to E is to kill a monster, then fighting a guy in the training center to advance to the next rank.
None of these, except maybe the one to get to rank F, really mean the person being promoted is actually able to perform the actual task.
Not to mention, if someone is unable to kill a monster for whatever reason, but is the only one clearing the herb gathering request, he/she would always be stuck at the lowest rank with all the consequences (e.g. limited rights when a dispute happens) despite contributing a lot to, for example, potion-making.
With this view ranks would not work at all, but if we really want to use them still, then at least separate them in categories: subjugation, rank G; gathering, rank B; public relations, rank D; etc.
Finally, why is it that S is the highest? If you want to go "reverse alphabetical" then the top is A, and if you have to go higher then it's A+, A++ and so on. Or use numbers: 1 is the lowest and the better you perform the higher it goes.
There was that comic about the guy going dungeoneering in another world which had very low stats except one which was "rank S"; upon seeing it the FMC (one of many) said he was even lower than her's (she's weak) since the letter S comes after the letter F.

On currencies:
Almost every isekai is set into worlds inspired by european middle-ages, renaissance at most.
In Europe every currency ever existing always had fractional values, be it a cent, a penny, a farthing, or whatever else.
In Japan (and I think other asian countries) the currency in use is a unit: 1 yen is the lowest possible value.
Obviously since isekai are made in Japan the conversion between the other wold currency and the MC's world is made based on the yen, but then they make it like: bronze coin is one yen, silver coin is 1000 yen, gold coin is 1000000 yen.
If you add that authors never use any of these informations except when the quest reward is "10000 gold" or something like that, so it's more about big numbers than actual currency conversion, using fractional values for the other world currency would make the (limited) world building more detailed with very little effort.
Instead of bronze being equal to 1 yen, it could be silver is 1 yen, bronze is half a silver, copper is half a bronze, gold is 10 silvers.

 

[Hitspark]

Japan seems to have this weird fascination with slavery in fiction, yet only surface level. The slave market only exists to serve the plot and it never exists outside of it. The main character, who often espouses the highest virtues, will often support this with very little moral conflict (if any at all). It's even worse when the slave trade is actively believed to be something negative in universe, yet there are no repercussions towards the MC for buying one.

If we want to use slavery then we have to define the kinds of slavery that are "ok" and what aren't. Debt slavery should be seen as the most "OK" since it's essentially the result of defaulting on a loan. There are historical precedents of debt slaves having forms of legal protection, too. So we can just say being a debt slave is like going into a job for set amount of years where the owner can't abuse you but you also have to do your job.

Less acceptable should be war/kidnapping slavery, catching people from war torn lands should always be seen as a scummy thing to do since these people do not have any form of protection or friends or family. It should be seen as taking advantage of the weak and should be outright looked down on. So if anyone is caught with this form of slave, they should be jailed immediately (cough cough MC cough cough).

Then we have Sexual Slavery. Simply put, you restrict them to brothels or you include the UB tag on your manga.

Another thing would be slavery absolve. It would always be in the best interest of a kingdom to have a way for slaves to be brought back into society as normal every day people...because normal every day people can work jobs and pay taxes. Meaning it would likely. For example, if a slave was taken in from another country by war slavers, that slave should be immediately absolved of the slave status and given help to find a place to work and rest. This does two things, one it makes another head count in your kingdom that you profit from and two it builds you loyalty and good rapport.

After we figure out the basic structure of the slave system we have to figure out how they interact with society. With the use of magic we can do a sort of magical contract that simply binds the master and slave together for a period of time, so we don't need to make any aggressive marks on people to out them as slaves. Don't get the point of that trope. If a slave is bound to someone by magic they don't need a mark letting others know they're slaves and potentially getting them used for ransom.

If we want their societal impact to be felt then we need to figure how much of the economy runs off slave labor. Are they a large portion of the societal work? They're obviously going to be treated better since they take up the most space. Are they a small part of the place? People likely wouldn't think too much of them because they're not seen too often.

With this basic framework we can imagine that perhaps there are businesses that use this charity to their advantage and hire debt slaves continually. For example there could be several well known businesses in the kingdom that hire debt slaves regularly and treat them fairly as well as others who don't. Heck, it might just be one of the things businesses do because, why not? Free labor with the only things you need to worry about are food, shelter and not violating the abuse clause? Just let em sleep in your house and don't chop them into bits.

Maybe slaves can work directly under the kingdom if they have the aptitude. Hunters, gatherers, miners, soldiers etc.

Historically speaking there were slave masters who took very good care of their slaves, maybe have some slaves in leadership roles? Possibly a principal of an art academy who was taken in as a debt slave while being a teenager, learned it from their master and continued with it? Or he went into debt trying to be a career artist and not he runs the academy as a debt slave to the kingdom? Or the bank? There's a lot you could do with the concept if you really wanted to.

I didn't even write much about the world but even with this basic fleshing out, I would be invested a little more into seeing how the world interacted. But I wrote this so I'm biased.

 

[yav12]

I haven't really seen any series in recent years that discusses what happens to an Isekai protagonist's family when they die.

Maybe only Isekai-ojisan, and he woke up after a decades-long coma with his family paying his medical bills.

In UQ holder, the bonus lives guy was isekai'd, and when he went back, time had simply stopped until he returned

 

[Dwarfy2k]

So apart from the slavery part being my most hated Isekai trope (and manga trait in general) the thing that really pisses me off in so many Isekai is this:

MC will be either reincarnated and live a life up to say like 16 or are like a middle ageish person who becomes like 16 or so and they act like a 16yr old even though mentally they are middle age. So not only do they not act their mental age but then they'll also somehow be super dense when they'll literally have men/women draping themselves on them clearly in love/lust.

One series that while I like it has a different issue, Enough with This Slow Life! I Was Reincarnated as a High Elf and Now I’m Bored where it keeps forgetting the MC is a human made High Elf and for some reason someone with a human mind has the time perception of an Elf? Also he thinks like an elf way too often for again a human in an elf body and somehow never seems to know how humans think.

Another series that does this is Meiou-sama ga Tooru no desu yo! which also constantly seems to forget the MC was human from like the word go.

 

[mikuroya]

And for the purposes of this thread, until someone decides to make a specialised thread for it, Otome Villianess stories qualify for this thread.

So, you opened this door yourself. Why is it Villianesses are not actually villainous?
Even though I don't like labeling something as "deconstruction", because in my opinion, it is a "cheap" trick, and any proper work will not be viewed as "deconstruction", even if at the time of its writing it was one. I can understand the idea of "reincarnating" not into a heroine of the Otome game, but an antagonist of the story, and subsequent hardships, etc. It is fine for a couple of works, but now that Villianes reincarnation is its own separate genre, I feel like it's long overdue we have some differences from actual Otome reincarnations. You have such a broad field to work with, yet you choose to just make Villianes not evil. Shakespeare wrote his Richard III decades ago, yet you can't make an actual villain (ess) protagonist of the story? Better yet show how with the prior knowledge you can not only achieve but also secure your victory.
(Bonus points for yuri, because I like it, and any self-sufficient villainess does not require male leads and whatnot, to obtain satisfaction.)

 

[cksn]

the purpose of the slavery trope is to provide a setting where the women are pleasant and obedient, and there's no feminism, without the need to explicitly question women's emancipation. it's a reflection of everyone's desire for pre-modern marriage, and men's desire for better-behaved women. so it's probably not going anywhere soon!

 

[Hauberk1800]

the purpose of the slavery trope is to provide a setting where the women are pleasant and obedient, and there's no feminism, without the need to explicitly question women's emancipation. it's a reflection of everyone's desire for pre-modern marriage, and men's desire for better-behaved women. so it's probably not going anywhere soon!

Wouldn't it be interesting to see a Harem trope tackle this but turn it on it's head with emancipation. By that I mean the MC would get Isekai'd into a younger body, be abhorred by the slavery and start collecting slaves only to free them and teach them to live their own lives freeing their mind from slavery. The "harem" would grow ever larger as more slaves are acquired and freed and the estate has to grow to accommodate the increase in personnel.

You'd have to figure out the business end of it to feed all those mouths to get started or found your own country like in Sekai de Tadahitori no Mamono Tsukai ~Tenshoku Shitara Maou ni Machigawa Remashita to continue your ideals. You could still have all of the interpersonal relationships and even still have women falling for the MC, but because he is older then his actual body he never pursues a romantic relationship with anyone and develops a close relationship with the one person who took the time to really understand him and they become besties but not romantic and it's such a relief to have a friend in the world rather than women who develop romantic feelings for their "savior." Heck you could even give the backstory needed to explain the MC savior complex.

 

[flannan]

• Currencies never have fractional values

The real trope for fantasy money, is that people actually have enough hard currency for all their commerce needs. That's not how it was for most of Middle Ages.
What I'd rather do, is make a story where people don't deal in money at all. Perhaps a fantasy kingdom whose economics are on Stone Age gift economy level, or a fantasy society that is operates on some flavor of Communism.

 

[Dwarfy2k]

The real trope for fantasy money, is that people actually have enough hard currency for all their commerce needs. That's not how it was for most of Middle Ages.
What I'd rather do, is make a story where people don't deal in money at all. Perhaps a fantasy kingdom whose economics are on Stone Age gift economy level, or a fantasy society that is operates on some flavor of Communism.

Actually now that I think about it, some currancies did have fractions Like this.

 

[flannan]

Speaking of money, there are two more interesting options.

Option one, is that some forces are deliberately flooding economy with precious metals to ensure a money-based economy and fast technological progress it entails. Perhaps dungeons are created by aliens who seek to uplift locals. Maybe even aliens who are actually the future humanity. Which is why monsters drop coins when they have no reason to have coins.

Option two, is that there are three kinds of metal coins, and they are not fractions of each other. Instead, they measure things of incomparable value. Copper coins are used to trade for ordinary goods. Silver coins are used to trade in magic items (which cannot be created through ordinary labor). And gold coins express the value of human life, and used in marriage ceremonies and when sending people on suicide missions. There is no exchange rate, and great dishonor to exchange one kind of coin for another.

 

[GipoScribantino]

The real trope for fantasy money, is that people actually have enough hard currency for all their commerce needs. That's not how it was for most of Middle Ages.

That's perfectly fine. We are still within the bounds of suspension of disbelief.
Inflation as a world-building element for fantasy work is not really as interesting as people might think.

 

[cksn]

when fantasy is stale, as it often is, it's because the setting lacks depth and verisimilitude. the worst sources of this are the tropes inherited from old video & pnp games that made shabby abstractions in the service of gameplay - job classes, levels, monsters dropping coins, etc. it's definitely worthy effort to crack any of these open and imagine something more reasonable. it's not that more realistic settings are already more engaging inherently. rather they enable more engaging stories to be told within them. it's just groundwork but it's useful.

 

[Dwarfy2k]

That's perfectly fine. We are still within the bounds of suspension of disbelief.
Inflation as a world-building element for fantasy work is not really as interesting as people might think.

My complaint is when the MC has more money then several kingdoms. Like how can they A. Afford that and B. Hw did that not tank the economies?

 

[flannan]

My complaint is when the MC has more money then several kingdoms. Like how can they A. Afford that and B. Hw did that not tank the economies?

Consider a dragon lying on a pile of treasure. That's probably a lot of treasure, more than a typical king has in his treasury.
They do not tank the economy, because the dragon is not spending it. The things a dragon wants, are just more treasure, and things that aren't for sale, like princesses.
MC having a lot of money deflates the economy, because that money is taken out of circulation.