The Saga of Tanya the Evil - Vol. 18 Ch. 51 - The Intervention Which Was Too Late II

[sdarkpaladin]

@kayd

That explains a lot. So the manga is diverging or at least changing a few key points compared to the LN? I've only read the manga and watched the anime. Didn't have the time to get into the LN yet.

 

[Wolvenworks]

man it feels weird to see Tanya's hair untied

 

[zanonyn]

@sdarkpaladin
So the manga is diverging or at least changing a few key points compared to the LN?

I wouldn't go that far. The LN is quite different from the WN, but the manga is pretty faithful to, I dunno, the "bones" of the LN. It's just adding detail, character interactions, and so on. I don't see any major divergences to the overall arc of the war, mostly just improvements and fixing a few inconsistencies in specific battles and explanations. Which isn't nothing, it's great in fact, the LN is a lot drier and often higher level like reading a history piece rather then seeing it happen. But I'd be surprised if any key points changed, and they won't at least through the end of this part of the war.

 

[DragonRider45]

Stug III, and Blitzkrieg? How long does it take for Francois to surrender? LOL

 

[kassidy_]

thank you for the update!!

 

[dsuke]

@zanonyn

Dude, tunnel warfare, be it to mine enemy positions or to infiltrate, is a big deal still. In the static warfare of the western front of WW1 it was a much used tactic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_warfare

 

[zanonyn]

@dsuke
But from your own link:

The largest mining operations were conducted in the Battle of Messines, where specialist Royal Engineer tunnelling companies placed 22 mines under German lines. 19 were eventually exploded, killing about 10,000 German soldiers. Underground attacks especially broke the morale of the enemy if he was surprised in his secure positions

Ie., it actually worked. The discussion here was about whether a mining operation this massive under the Empire's own lines which they then lured the Francois over should realistically have been discovered at this stage of the war. I'm arguing that nothing of that scale had yet been done, not that it was never done at all in history. In the story itself they point out it was an old tactic, reapplied for the modern era. But that doesn't mean it couldn't still be a surprise, and certainly not when done as a strategic move. The Battle of Messines itself was in 1917, so 3 years in and almost at the end of WW1.

I don't think it actually goes into specifically how they dug those mine tunnels, but it can be inferred that they were able to in part because they could be a lot noiser and less careful about it then normal because they controlled the above-ground. If the Francois had realized it was a trap, they wouldn't have moved forward that way in the first place, and surprise and speed were baked into the plan. At this stage of things Tanya's introduction of the total war concept and fighting for resources vs territory was pretty revolutionary. I don't think the setup here was badly done, or that the Francois were wrong to have not somehow dug down deeply as they advanced.

So I'm just arguing that the Francois were not stupid, careless, fought badly, or anything like that. They worked hard and had smart people on their side. But the Empire was better at this 1v1, they were outmaneuvered in tech, strategy and intelligence at the strategic scale is all. And other countries do adapt and learn lessons too, and the Empire makes major missteps and loses tons of valuable people, grinding down completely towards the end.

 

[rrolo1]

Yeah, that whole explosion thing would had been better if the Not Germans had left hidden explosives when retreating ... Tunnels and counter-tunnels were the bread and butter of trench warfare and there is no way the Not Germans would be able to do the kind of extensive digs they would need to pull this one. This was not a 10 -20 mine thing, but a whole tens of kilometers front line ... a little too big to be done inconspicuously.

That said, time for another aerial mage battle

 

[a707]

Seeing how hard Tanya and her comrades worked to achieve this makes me really want to root for them.

 

[zanonyn]

@rrolo1
Yeah, that whole explosion thing would had been better if the Not Germans had left hidden explosives when retreating

Didn't they though? I'd have to review and re-read this and vol3, but I was fairly certain that is indeed what happened, they dug those tunnels under their own lines or at least No Man's land, then retreated just a little bit and firmed up behind them while leaving a complete vacuum in the Low Lands leading up to the industrial area. That's what I was basing my defense on it off of.

If I'm misremembering then yeah that complicates things a bit, though even then there are a few differences to take into account. First, they've got mages and mage blades/shovels and it's been shown those are capable of doing incredibly extensive works with just man power, and presumably very quietly. That might allow tunneling with industrial machine type speed but not the noise. And the story repeatedly emphasizes how mages are still really new and nobody fully understands how to use them yet, which isn't unbelievable given how aircraft were used in our WW1. Second, if the Empire planned this for a while they may have purposefully ceased all tunneling long beforehand. Combined with Francois belief in their logistical collapse, maybe that'd have lowered guards.

 

[HunterCO]

Ah I love seeing successful encirclements

 

[zano187]

could of sworn I already read this months ago

 

[dsuke]

@zanonyn

First you seem ignorant of them being a thing, then you seem triumphant at the fact that they were a thing and claim that they worked!? You come from an alternate timeline where WW1 was decided by mining enemy positions? They were terrible weapons when successfully deployed but ultimately did not lead to the breakthroughs envisioned and certainly not breakthroughs of the scale depicted here.

Furthermore, static warfare begets tunnel warfare. While the Francois could've missed the tunnels the main point here is that they shouldn't have missed them. They should have been perfectly aware of the risk of booby traps and tunnels. You can blame it on them taking the bait hook, line and sinker but in the end it's a plot device with holes.

 

[Harouki]

Even if they were spotted, who were they going to tell?

Their HQ and command staff were dead and all they got were static.

Not to mention that the tunnels were dug from way behind Imperial lines and underneath the trenches themselves with no entrances visible to the advancing republic trying to plug a hole left by the Imperial strategic retreat

Remember, this all happened in a matter of HOURS, all in the same day.

Timeline

1. Imperial begins theirRetreats
2. Republic goes “Its a trap” and waits for the surge forward
3. Imperials ACTUALLY retreated and due to the passive response suffered 0 casualties and there is now huge swathes of unclaimed land
4 Republic moves to claim it
5 Operation Doorknocker ( Tanyas group) destroys enemy command
6 Operation Lock Pick (Kaboom) destroys flank
7 Operation Revolving door (we are here)

 

[Claith]

Love all the different styles of tech between the nations. I think my favorite so far are those jet engine speeders with miniguns.

Through out the series, Tanya's name is scrubbed from reports and such. I'm wondering if the story will ever get the point where it explains why. She's responsible in some regard, for pretty much all the tactics of the nation. I can only guess it is the ego of the commanders, but they seem to be taken by her. /shrug Maybe I should just check out the LN again. I have no idea where I left off, or rather, I have no idea if they translated more since I caught up.

Edit:

Just checked, and the light novel up through volume 7 is on Yen Press. I'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[Oculunus]

Truly a nice day to kill some vermins!

 

[VladV]

Ah yes, I know that feel when you see the chance to make the biggest encirclement, trapping hundreds of thousands to millions of soldiers with Blitzkrieg and force them to surrender or death

 

[zanonyn]

@dsuke
I'm really not sure what you're misunderstanding here. I'm not saying they didn't exist at all, I've repeatedly said they were. I'm saying that precisely because they weren't used in this kind of gigantic decisive way and yet they did work all the way to the end of WW1 that it's not a plot hole they'd work under these circumstances. It's not like they had ground penetrating radar or something.

They were terrible weapons when successfully deployed but ultimately did not lead to the breakthroughs envisioned and certainly not breakthroughs of the scale depicted here.

But do you think that's because it's impossible with mage blades and the strategy used, or just because in our world we didn't have those things, or that kind of strategy at the time with no convenient knowledge of the future? I'm arguing that it's entirely realistic that the Francois wouldn't see it coming.

Furthermore, static warfare begets tunnel warfare. While the Francois could've missed the tunnels the main point here is that they shouldn't have missed them. They should have been perfectly aware of the risk of booby traps and tunnels. You can blame it on them taking the bait hook, line and sinker but in the end it's a plot device with holes.

I disagree, history is replete with examples of one side pulling off a victory over another because of successful deception, planning, logistics, and tech. That's why those were considered great victories. I don't see why the Francois should have been looking for this move, and exactly why they shouldn't have been. That was the whole point of all the build up.

I'd consider a plot hole if the Empire had just pulled it out of their collective butt all of a sudden. But they've spent months and months working up to this exact plan (it states on page 31 of chapter 42 that the rocket device meeting alone was a few months back), not just militarily but working on deceiving enemy leadership through multiple prongs. Saying this shouldn't have been overlooked is like saying Dunkirk shouldn't have been overlooked

Spoiler

and speaking of which coming right up...

 

[marcyvq]

The amount of manpower and time it would take to dig that much tunnel under enemy trenches makes this a little hard to swallow but it sure is fun

 

[Waifuhunter101]

Freaking Stug III in WW1