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LOVE THAT BIRD
The Soulless Duchess
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@yurigasaki thank you. You put exactly what I felt was wrong with this series so eloquently. I found it uncomfortable the sole portrayal of lgbt+ are the villains. There are no other representation in the story so far. The “heros” are heterosexual. While I’m uncertain about the author’s intentions, it does come off as homophobic.
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@ForeverTheSky
Idk i don't think this is homophobic at all. As a gay male (just my personal opinion, other ppl can have different ones), I think the whole "gay" thing was really to forward the "you need to make a child for us" plot. They could've used a female who couldn't give birth or a male who was impotent, but tbh i don't think their choice of using two gay men was intentional. While yes, the lgbt+ representation is through villains, it is still representation and that's a lot more than what other mangas can say.
I guess the main problem is because they're portrayed as villains, and there's no other representation in the manwha, homophobic people may have their beliefs reaffirmed. I believe that the author is not homophobic and created gay characters for representation (and came up with the "you need to make a child for us" plot), but depending on the person viewing, the message portrayed may be different. As someone who is very used to LGBT+, I didn't even think twice about the fact that the villains were gay; I just thought "oh cool! gay characters", and just went on with the story because they weren't important and I cared about the main characters.
If you want something centered around LGBT+ characters that are important, then you're looking at the wrong manwha, and there are plenty of other great pieces of work out there for that purpose.
TLDR: Right Idea, Wrong Execution
Idk i don't think this is homophobic at all. As a gay male (just my personal opinion, other ppl can have different ones), I think the whole "gay" thing was really to forward the "you need to make a child for us" plot. They could've used a female who couldn't give birth or a male who was impotent, but tbh i don't think their choice of using two gay men was intentional. While yes, the lgbt+ representation is through villains, it is still representation and that's a lot more than what other mangas can say.
I guess the main problem is because they're portrayed as villains, and there's no other representation in the manwha, homophobic people may have their beliefs reaffirmed. I believe that the author is not homophobic and created gay characters for representation (and came up with the "you need to make a child for us" plot), but depending on the person viewing, the message portrayed may be different. As someone who is very used to LGBT+, I didn't even think twice about the fact that the villains were gay; I just thought "oh cool! gay characters", and just went on with the story because they weren't important and I cared about the main characters.
If you want something centered around LGBT+ characters that are important, then you're looking at the wrong manwha, and there are plenty of other great pieces of work out there for that purpose.
TLDR: Right Idea, Wrong Execution
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2019
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- 4
Where are the missing chapters?!?!
It might surprise people to know but those in the lgbt+ community can also be awful people. Just because you aren't straight doesn't mean you are suddenly a saint and impervious to wrong doing.
The story that is happening here isn't something that far fetched. The idea that this story is homophobic is reaching pretty fucking hard. Can it be balanced out with more gay characters? Yes. Should it though? That's not for us to decide.
If someone is truly dissatisfied with how things are with representation, pickup the pen and paper and start writing your own stories. Become the change you want to see, don't wait for someone else to hand it to you.
The story that is happening here isn't something that far fetched. The idea that this story is homophobic is reaching pretty fucking hard. Can it be balanced out with more gay characters? Yes. Should it though? That's not for us to decide.
If someone is truly dissatisfied with how things are with representation, pickup the pen and paper and start writing your own stories. Become the change you want to see, don't wait for someone else to hand it to you.
I’m gonna preface this by saying I do in fact have LGBTQ friends.
Now then, I honestly love how the villains are gay. It makes me feel like the author is willing to take risks. If you stop trying to read this story as some philosophical “read between the lines” type of story, you will find a very enjoyable fantasy tale. You can’t say, it portrays gay people bad! It’s a f*cking story, get over yourself! If you are gay, does a gay villain really insult you? I’m white female, do u know how many villainous white females there are? If someone isn’t homophobic, it’s not like this story will convince them to be. Chances are, if a reader who doesn’t hate gay people reads this, they’re not gonna be convinced to start hating gay people. This isn’t some kind of deep soul searching story, why should it even matter what sexual orientation the villain is?
Get. Over. Your. Self.
Now then, I honestly love how the villains are gay. It makes me feel like the author is willing to take risks. If you stop trying to read this story as some philosophical “read between the lines” type of story, you will find a very enjoyable fantasy tale. You can’t say, it portrays gay people bad! It’s a f*cking story, get over yourself! If you are gay, does a gay villain really insult you? I’m white female, do u know how many villainous white females there are? If someone isn’t homophobic, it’s not like this story will convince them to be. Chances are, if a reader who doesn’t hate gay people reads this, they’re not gonna be convinced to start hating gay people. This isn’t some kind of deep soul searching story, why should it even matter what sexual orientation the villain is?
Get. Over. Your. Self.
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@JAPisawesome Yes, that’s the main concern I have with this. It provides confirmation bias where the direct correlation is gay = bad, especially since sexuality is such an important aspect in the story. If the villains weren’t attracted to each other and weren’t so willing to work their way around a heteronormative society, you could even say none of the following scenarios would’ve happen. Even if there is representation, in my opinion, no representation at all would’ve been better than a bad one. It would’ve been fine if there was another portrayal where it doesn’t isolate lgbt+ characters as solely malicious, but as it stands there’s isn’t another example in the story to counter that perception. Like I mentioned before, I am uncertain about the author’s intentions (it could have stemmed from innocent ignorance with the intent at representation like you mentioned), but I am simply uncomfortable by their decisions. Overall, I agree with how you said it was the right idea, but wrong execution. It’s interesting to see villain lgbt+ characters, but there needs to be a balance against the cartoonishly evil as to not have people target them for their sexuality.
As for @mcvolt @Azzalin @Maizily next time if you want to debate or express your criticism towards my statement, @ me
Mcvolt, I have no idea why you brought feminists into the argument as if it’s of equivalence to the topic being discussed about, but I will address it anyway. Let’s get to the point, I am a female. The reason why people are fine with villainess women are because that’s not the SOLE portrayal. The heroine is a woman and a strong one at that. Please refer back to my original statement. If ALL women were portrayed as evil and the ONLY good people are male, then the same problem would exists. It becomes a breeding ground and a safe space to misogynists where they could affirm their beliefs. Additionally, I am only discussing about this story as this is where this issue is.
Azzalin, I have never said that I believe lgbt+ people are strictly saints and impervious to any wrongdoings because after all, we are still people who are susceptible to malice. Writing off concerns from the communities in question is very privileged of you. You and I both know it’s not as simple as you find something wrong, then do it yourself, no matter how easily you stated it. As I mentioned before, my problem lies in the sole portrayal being within these characters, which makes people with actual homophobic beliefs to find solace in these works. While yes, it’s not our decision and suggestions that influences how the story develops, that doesn’t mean the author should be immune to criticism.
Maizily, first of all, it’s really weird to say you have lgbt+ friends as if that’s some sort of certification that allows you to speak over us. It’s similar to saying “I have black friends so I can’t possibly be racist,” but I digress. You can’t just tell me to “get over yourself” when the situation at hand doesn’t even pertain to you. Let me repeat this once again, the existence of a villainous gay doesn’t insult me, the fact of the matter is that the ONLY gay existence is a villain became the root of my uncomfortableness with this manhwa. This became a situation where one could directly correlate the villains being evil BECAUSE they’re gay as sexuality was one of the factors that created this conflict in the first place. In this series, sexual orientation ARE important. This gives a confirmation bias to people who are already homophobic. With the white villainess, I ask you: are they the sole representation? There are always a counter to them and that’s why there isn’t an issue. The problem is isolation. I’m going to only address this manhwa as this is the one where an issue exists. My concern isn’t with having lgbt+ villains, rather, I find it to be quite refreshing. Please reread my original statement. It doesn’t sit right with me that the ONLY representation of lgbt+ are with the villains. It’s not merely just a story. Remember, this is a medium that could reach audiences, which means it could influence a lot of people.
Anyways, you could read what yurigasaki said about this subject as they were able to express it far better than I can.
Edit: I’m getting tired of responding because I feel like I’m just repeating myself. I’m not exactly sure what’s within my phrasing that’s not getting my points across a few people, but I’m going to quote what one of the arguments yurigasaki said here for more context. I agree with all their points and this is one of them.
In conclusion, I’ve never accused the author of being homophobic. I mentioned how one aspect CAME ACROSS as homophobic; there is a difference. This doesn’t mean the entire story is. All I wanted to do was express my uncomfortableness with one of the author’s decisions because it has direct correlation to my community. I read comments to see if others had felt the same way or if it’s just me, and as it turns out, I wasn’t the only one expressing this sentiment.
And @vessalius not engaging in discussion doesn’t make you higher than us in any sort of way? Lol just move along
Edit: was that not what you were implying? Or are you saying you didn’t purposely used the word “children” in a negative connotation to reference us? Where’s the joke? Genuinely, where? I’m not saying you have to contribute in discussion. Just make your comment about the chapters and go mind your business lmao no need for the backhand comment
@YURI-SAN6 I could explain my point further in dms if you want?
And Idk if you’ll get another notification from this mention but @Azzalin: IT IS privileged of you to write off concerns from the communities in question. I have no idea why you take such a huge offense to that when it’s the truth? You’re not the one this situation is pertaining to so you could just disregard it with a “well whatever, it’s not me so I don’t care, but oh it concerns you? I don’t care, so why should you?” Is that not privilege? You’re derailing from the initial argument with bringing in statistics that’s not in relation to the original point I was trying to make. I advise you to reread my statement once again. I don’t even know where you’re trying to go with the representation of all lgbt+ statement. Additionally, if you have a creative mindset, you will know that’s not the only way to introduce characters lmao. Did the villains do that? Was it weird when they were introduced? Furthermore, I think you need to look up the definition of confirmation bias because you’re not making sense by saying, “the people who are actually homophobic and find solace in this type of work are people who are you that seek out confirmation bias and would have very little reason to change in the first place.” You just contradicted yourself. You said it’s simple, but in the next couple sentences you just acknowledged exactly why it’s not simple. Also, you’re right when you stated you never explicitly said the author is immune to criticism, but your attitude of “if you have a problem, then why don’t you do it yourself?” in your initial comment gave off that exact stance. I hope you realize what this is. It’s criticism. I’m giving criticism.
As for @mcvolt @Azzalin @Maizily next time if you want to debate or express your criticism towards my statement, @ me
Mcvolt, I have no idea why you brought feminists into the argument as if it’s of equivalence to the topic being discussed about, but I will address it anyway. Let’s get to the point, I am a female. The reason why people are fine with villainess women are because that’s not the SOLE portrayal. The heroine is a woman and a strong one at that. Please refer back to my original statement. If ALL women were portrayed as evil and the ONLY good people are male, then the same problem would exists. It becomes a breeding ground and a safe space to misogynists where they could affirm their beliefs. Additionally, I am only discussing about this story as this is where this issue is.
Azzalin, I have never said that I believe lgbt+ people are strictly saints and impervious to any wrongdoings because after all, we are still people who are susceptible to malice. Writing off concerns from the communities in question is very privileged of you. You and I both know it’s not as simple as you find something wrong, then do it yourself, no matter how easily you stated it. As I mentioned before, my problem lies in the sole portrayal being within these characters, which makes people with actual homophobic beliefs to find solace in these works. While yes, it’s not our decision and suggestions that influences how the story develops, that doesn’t mean the author should be immune to criticism.
Maizily, first of all, it’s really weird to say you have lgbt+ friends as if that’s some sort of certification that allows you to speak over us. It’s similar to saying “I have black friends so I can’t possibly be racist,” but I digress. You can’t just tell me to “get over yourself” when the situation at hand doesn’t even pertain to you. Let me repeat this once again, the existence of a villainous gay doesn’t insult me, the fact of the matter is that the ONLY gay existence is a villain became the root of my uncomfortableness with this manhwa. This became a situation where one could directly correlate the villains being evil BECAUSE they’re gay as sexuality was one of the factors that created this conflict in the first place. In this series, sexual orientation ARE important. This gives a confirmation bias to people who are already homophobic. With the white villainess, I ask you: are they the sole representation? There are always a counter to them and that’s why there isn’t an issue. The problem is isolation. I’m going to only address this manhwa as this is the one where an issue exists. My concern isn’t with having lgbt+ villains, rather, I find it to be quite refreshing. Please reread my original statement. It doesn’t sit right with me that the ONLY representation of lgbt+ are with the villains. It’s not merely just a story. Remember, this is a medium that could reach audiences, which means it could influence a lot of people.
Anyways, you could read what yurigasaki said about this subject as they were able to express it far better than I can.
Edit: I’m getting tired of responding because I feel like I’m just repeating myself. I’m not exactly sure what’s within my phrasing that’s not getting my points across a few people, but I’m going to quote what one of the arguments yurigasaki said here for more context. I agree with all their points and this is one of them.
In conclusion, I’ve never accused the author of being homophobic. I mentioned how one aspect CAME ACROSS as homophobic; there is a difference. This doesn’t mean the entire story is. All I wanted to do was express my uncomfortableness with one of the author’s decisions because it has direct correlation to my community. I read comments to see if others had felt the same way or if it’s just me, and as it turns out, I wasn’t the only one expressing this sentiment.
And @vessalius not engaging in discussion doesn’t make you higher than us in any sort of way? Lol just move along
Edit: was that not what you were implying? Or are you saying you didn’t purposely used the word “children” in a negative connotation to reference us? Where’s the joke? Genuinely, where? I’m not saying you have to contribute in discussion. Just make your comment about the chapters and go mind your business lmao no need for the backhand comment
@YURI-SAN6 I could explain my point further in dms if you want?
And Idk if you’ll get another notification from this mention but @Azzalin: IT IS privileged of you to write off concerns from the communities in question. I have no idea why you take such a huge offense to that when it’s the truth? You’re not the one this situation is pertaining to so you could just disregard it with a “well whatever, it’s not me so I don’t care, but oh it concerns you? I don’t care, so why should you?” Is that not privilege? You’re derailing from the initial argument with bringing in statistics that’s not in relation to the original point I was trying to make. I advise you to reread my statement once again. I don’t even know where you’re trying to go with the representation of all lgbt+ statement. Additionally, if you have a creative mindset, you will know that’s not the only way to introduce characters lmao. Did the villains do that? Was it weird when they were introduced? Furthermore, I think you need to look up the definition of confirmation bias because you’re not making sense by saying, “the people who are actually homophobic and find solace in this type of work are people who are you that seek out confirmation bias and would have very little reason to change in the first place.” You just contradicted yourself. You said it’s simple, but in the next couple sentences you just acknowledged exactly why it’s not simple. Also, you’re right when you stated you never explicitly said the author is immune to criticism, but your attitude of “if you have a problem, then why don’t you do it yourself?” in your initial comment gave off that exact stance. I hope you realize what this is. It’s criticism. I’m giving criticism.
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- Aug 18, 2019
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Lord luckius is my fav now🤣
@ForeverTheSky
I’m gonna say, I was previously a bit harsh, in part due fact that I have had SEVERAL experiences with people calling me racist for speaking out about situations similar to this. I find it completely unreasonable that people think that if you’re gay, you’re free of criticism. Due to this, I was a bit angry about people making a big deal about the villains being gay. I did kinda assume that anyone with that opinion was the same as people I have previously encountered, and for this I apologize.
I find your opinion on them being the only LGBTQ characters quite intriguing for a couple reasons. Being straight is the standard, and that kinda means sadly, that any LGBTQ characters introduced should have some story based reason for existing. If there was just some random LGBTQ couple in the story, people would know that they were there just to balance out the villains and that really wouldn’t work with the story. I think it’s too bad that any LGBTQ characters introduced need some kind of story reason for existing, but I stand by what I previously said. I don’t think people will change their opinion because of this story, and I don’t think it’s right for the author to change their narrative just cause some people are insulted by it.
Basically, sorry for being harsh, but I do think criticism for this story shouldn’t have anything to do with the sexual orientation of the characters. It would be nice if there was more representation, but since LGBTQ couples aren’t the standard, if there was another LGBTQ couple, everyone would know that the author just did it to appease the more hot headed people. Not to mention, the time period this story takes place in is what makes the conflict a conflict. I respect your opinion, and I agree that it’s too bad that there aren’t any other LGBTQ couples, but I also respect the authors vision for this story.
I’m gonna say, I was previously a bit harsh, in part due fact that I have had SEVERAL experiences with people calling me racist for speaking out about situations similar to this. I find it completely unreasonable that people think that if you’re gay, you’re free of criticism. Due to this, I was a bit angry about people making a big deal about the villains being gay. I did kinda assume that anyone with that opinion was the same as people I have previously encountered, and for this I apologize.
I find your opinion on them being the only LGBTQ characters quite intriguing for a couple reasons. Being straight is the standard, and that kinda means sadly, that any LGBTQ characters introduced should have some story based reason for existing. If there was just some random LGBTQ couple in the story, people would know that they were there just to balance out the villains and that really wouldn’t work with the story. I think it’s too bad that any LGBTQ characters introduced need some kind of story reason for existing, but I stand by what I previously said. I don’t think people will change their opinion because of this story, and I don’t think it’s right for the author to change their narrative just cause some people are insulted by it.
Basically, sorry for being harsh, but I do think criticism for this story shouldn’t have anything to do with the sexual orientation of the characters. It would be nice if there was more representation, but since LGBTQ couples aren’t the standard, if there was another LGBTQ couple, everyone would know that the author just did it to appease the more hot headed people. Not to mention, the time period this story takes place in is what makes the conflict a conflict. I respect your opinion, and I agree that it’s too bad that there aren’t any other LGBTQ couples, but I also respect the authors vision for this story.
@foreverthesky privileged of me huh? That certainly got an eyebrow raise out of me. All personal jabs aside, I never said that there author should be immune to criticism.
But once again, the idea of the story being homophobic because the villains happen to be a gay couple is a reach.
If you want a true representation quota, then based on recent polls of our own world, 4 percent of the characters should be off the lgbtq status. With that being said, the b, t, and q are more difficult to represent or simpley not come up in conversation or have a need to presented to the audience. Why? Because it'd be super weird for a character to introduce themselves and be like "by the way I'm bi."
The people who are actually homophobic and find solace in this type of work are people who are you that seek out confirmation bias and would have very little reason to change in the first place.
And lastly. It truly is that simple. It really is. Sharing it is a different matter. Preparing it for publishing is a different animal completely, but just starting a small change truly is that simple. Though I suppose I should have said that to endure, one needs the constitution it support to see it through.
But once again, the idea of the story being homophobic because the villains happen to be a gay couple is a reach.
If you want a true representation quota, then based on recent polls of our own world, 4 percent of the characters should be off the lgbtq status. With that being said, the b, t, and q are more difficult to represent or simpley not come up in conversation or have a need to presented to the audience. Why? Because it'd be super weird for a character to introduce themselves and be like "by the way I'm bi."
The people who are actually homophobic and find solace in this type of work are people who are you that seek out confirmation bias and would have very little reason to change in the first place.
And lastly. It truly is that simple. It really is. Sharing it is a different matter. Preparing it for publishing is a different animal completely, but just starting a small change truly is that simple. Though I suppose I should have said that to endure, one needs the constitution it support to see it through.
Member
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- Jan 11, 2019
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- 518
i come to comments to find out where the missing chapters went and instead i am greeted by a bunch of children arguing over whether or not gay people being the villains of a story makes the whole story homophobic. god i love democracy and forums.
@ForeverTheSky over here getting pressed over a throwaway joke I made, cause he read too far into it and assumed I was being all 'holier than thou' when really I simply described what happened and how I felt. Once again, I love democracy and forums.
for real though, why are you tagging me in this debate chain when I just wanted to make a relatable joke? I came to the comments to perhaps find a reason/solution to the missing chapters and instead am greeted by an ongoing discourse that I am unable to contribute to due to 1) lack of information; and 2) lack of credibility.
@ForeverTheSky over here getting pressed over a throwaway joke I made, cause he read too far into it and assumed I was being all 'holier than thou' when really I simply described what happened and how I felt. Once again, I love democracy and forums.
for real though, why are you tagging me in this debate chain when I just wanted to make a relatable joke? I came to the comments to perhaps find a reason/solution to the missing chapters and instead am greeted by an ongoing discourse that I am unable to contribute to due to 1) lack of information; and 2) lack of credibility.
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- Oct 1, 2019
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- 145
@ForeverTheSky
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I definently agree with you on many points, and you have every right to complain and criticize the author's work for fueling potential homophobics. It's just, saying the author is homophobic is imo a reach (my right idea, wrong execution idea). And I know that you can focus on two issues at the same time, but tbh there's much more pressing LGBTQ issues out there that are the true causes of this type of problem. This is only a symptom, not the cause. So trying to flame the author or attacking them personally is kind of useless, and I think it could potentially even backfire, with the author not wanting to deal with any more drama and simply removing LGBTQ characters in their works in the future.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I definently agree with you on many points, and you have every right to complain and criticize the author's work for fueling potential homophobics. It's just, saying the author is homophobic is imo a reach (my right idea, wrong execution idea). And I know that you can focus on two issues at the same time, but tbh there's much more pressing LGBTQ issues out there that are the true causes of this type of problem. This is only a symptom, not the cause. So trying to flame the author or attacking them personally is kind of useless, and I think it could potentially even backfire, with the author not wanting to deal with any more drama and simply removing LGBTQ characters in their works in the future.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2020
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- 38
Hopefully, the chapters will be fixed soon. I enjoy this story and would like to wait for the missing chapters 27, 28, etc.
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