Touge Oni - Vol. 9 Ch. 43 - Decisive Battle at Izushima

[MagnaDrake]

This is the modern Western interpretation of the Legend of Momotaro story and the more obvious references in the Shuten Doji myth cycle, which is almost certainly based on some sort of ethnic war around Kyoto. The latter is actually better-attested because the story of the oni of Mt. Oe could be cross-referenced to three local disturbances by the Emishi (teh ancestors of teh Ainu).

The problem is that, while both stories (and similar ones) may be disguised rewriting of real history where the Emishi and other indigenous groups were turned into the oni, the mythical creature itself predates these stories (and even their settings) by centuries. The earliest references to the oni actually came from mid-7th century tales that were written down in the early 8th century, and in those depictions the oni were just purely supernatural beings, usually depicted as human souls (and bodies) twisted by revenge or ethereal beings who commit acts of violence to avenge the spiteful in response to curses. You can see this earlier depiction in the kanji originally used for them: 鬼 (gui, pronounced ki in on'yomi). Since the kanji is borrowed from Chinese, the original oni must have seemed to the Japanese to be similar to the vengeful ghosts of Chinese tradition. However, the Chinese concept of ghost assumes a fully ethereal being, while in the Japanese conception, the ghost still had a physical body (which may or may not be the original human body). You can also still see this in the way the kijo (鬼女 - literally demon woman/female oni) is depicted, since this yokai got split from the oni clade really early. So, an original oni would have looked like a male kijo, basically. This is also why many early depictions of oni showed a man in noble court attire with a twisted face, mirroring the kijo who were depicted as a court lady with twisted face.

The modern oni (horned, sporting a club and wearing tiger loincloth) is an even more recent Tokugawa-era representation that is actually based on astrology. In Japanese astrology, the Demon Gate (鬼門 - gui men in Chinese, kimon in Japanese) where oni are said to come from is located between the constellations of the ox and the tiger, and its direction is called ushitora (ox-tiger). This direction is represented in the ox-horns and tiger loincloth of the "modern" oni. The club is borrowed from Buddhism's depiction of the asura.

Looking at the historical evidence, then, the oni didn't start out as a racist representation of the Emishi, or for that matter their Ainu descendants. Rather, it was a Japanese spiritual creature that originally resembled the Chinese gui, but was later borrowed around the 14th century to dehumanize the Emishi in legends and stories connected to their conquest and extermination by the Yamato court. Later as this history disappeared in the background during the sengoku and Tokugawa era, the oni regained its purely supernatural identity and we somehow ended up with cute horny girls sometimes in tiger-striped bikini.

Can I just mention that I really love the modern Netflix version of Lum? She da best!

Wow. I would never have thought this far. I only assumed the Oni here was just allegory of displaced humans ravaged by war and famime. Never really made the connection to race conflict.

 

[Shengar]

We all could see Kozumi being En from the future but none of us I predicts he is actually "them" aka multiple of past-present-future selves merged into one

"He" had done this multiple times, which makes me wonder what was the cause of divergence in which our En saw Zen in his trial and thus actually prevented him becoming a sannin. I'm actually more curious on this than the Oni question

 

[FogChinatsu]

taruma da goat

 

[crimsonmoon]

Once again, Tarume proves she is best girl.
Mens, find a wife who would secretly poison you, for your sake.

 

[ricecrops]

Now that we're gonna get the oni secret explained, to recapitulate:
1. Oni-fication happens after eating other humans (even if said humans are already corpses).
2. Oni are still man grass, but with an "unusual" mantra.
3. Physically, an oni's horns seem to be rooted in their brain (like a tree or parasite).
4. Removing said horns will result in the oni's death.
5. Oni are capable of rational thought and developed skill.
6. The union of an oni and a human results in a "hornless oni" (re: a human).
7. Talking about the nature of oni activates a curse on the kami, imposed by humans.

Hitokotonushi mentions that humans, with their mantra, brought forth the existence and materialization of kami, but the fear resulting from witnessing a kami's power, sight and mostly memory has doomed them to disappear. If I were to venture, the curse that prevents kami from talking about oni was placed —by humans— to restrict being reminded of something, likely a primal truth of humanity.

 

[ricecrops]

I thought Oni were originally racial-propagandistic representations of Ainu by the Yayoi (I think) people, the Asian mainland immigrants and their descendants, as their civilization spread through the archipelago. But a quick google isn't helping me figure out how I got that idea in my head.

what oni represent in japanese folklore is an amalgamation of ideas far older than their existence in the archipelago, the current negative view of "oni" is mostly influenced by buddhism anyway

 

[Darroth]

I thought Oni were originally racial-propagandistic representations of Ainu by the Yayoi (I think) people, the Asian mainland immigrants and their descendants, as their civilization spread through the archipelago. But a quick google isn't helping me figure out how I got that idea in my head.

Maybe you're thinking of Tsuchigumo

 

[cryum]

Sends half the team to go do something else

"We did not take him lightly"
Bitch you absolutely took him lightly


But that freaking ape red herring. I thought he was an amalgamation of multiple creatures, turns out it's just himself.

 

[ricecrops]

Now that we're gonna get the oni secret explained, to recapitulate:
1. Oni-fication happens after eating other humans (even if said humans are already corpses).
2. Oni are still man grass, but with an "unusual" mantra.
3. Physically, an oni's horns seem to be rooted in their brain (like a tree or parasite).
4. Removing said horns will result in the oni's death.
5. Oni are capable of rational thought and developed skill.
6. The union of an oni and a human results in a "hornless oni" (re: a human).
7. Talking about the nature of oni activates a curse on the kami, imposed by humans.

Hitokotonushi mentions that humans, with their mantra, brought forth the existence and materialization of kami, but the fear resulting from witnessing a kami's power, sight and mostly memory has doomed them to disappear. If I were to venture, the curse that prevents kami from talking about oni was placed —by humans— to restrict being reminded of something, likely a primal truth of humanity.

In a way, the oni in this story are kinda like vampires or zombies where instead of being reanimated corpses it's more like cannibalizing extends their lifespans, though idk for how long that would be, or how durable they are.