Tsuihou Sareta Renkinjutsushi-san, Saikyou no Dungeon wo Tsukurimasen ka? - Vol. 4 Ch. 36

[Mukapower3]

Welcome new undead minion

 

[PechWild]

Quoting one of the greatest works of art in contemporary history:

"Fuck Tony."

 

[Oeconomist]

This story seems to be a lite version of dork-seinen cheese-spread.

 

[Ovnidemon]

Is it me or page 11 is missing? There is a jump after page 10

 

[wallenwhatsit012]

Is it me or page 11 is missing? There is a jump after page 10

You're right, sorry... our raw provider missed it and the cleaner didn't notice as well, obviously I wouldn't notice as well when tl and ts, thanks for spotting it... I'll get it updated now

 

[StormSen]

I get that. I know that what gets translated as "hero" isn't really the same as what the English word implies and is why some translators choose to use the word "brave" instead. It's also not really entirely the source of the problem. I'm fine with Allan being a dickhead. That trope of the asshole hero who incites the manga protag to be kicked out of the party and who is mostly an irredeemable twat meant for the audience to hate is fine and even if I think it's overused it serves a purpose.

My problem is that in any good story you need a character for your audience to sympathize with. Usually that's the protagonist but you can have an anti-hero or villain protagonist who doesn't get any connection to the audience and have the other characters be worthy of the reader/viewer's time or consideration.

I dislike some of the characters as intended, but the other ones mostly seem to only get apathy from me. And it's been said that the absolute worst 8 words any writer can hear about their work is this: "I don't care what happens to these people."

I agree about lack of likability. We feel no empathy for these characters because they feel no empathy for anyone else. But that's my point about 'Hero'. Current Western heroes are protectors, which is fundamentally about protecting people because the hero cares about them.

If a culture lacks the ideal of 'Hero is empathetic with other people', then that culture generally won't care that the MC lacks empathy. I.e. what we find dislikable about the characters here is likely irrelevant to the original audience of this manga.

 

[Pyras]

God, I hate when manga tries to give sympathetic backstories to irrelevant characters...

What manga is this from ?

 

[Darkshade13]

I agree about lack of likability. We feel no empathy for these characters because they feel no empathy for anyone else. But that's my point about 'Hero'. Current Western heroes are protectors, which is fundamentally about protecting people because the hero cares about them.

If a culture lacks the ideal of 'Hero is empathetic with other people', then that culture generally won't care that the MC lacks empathy. I.e. what we find dislikable about the characters here is likely irrelevant to the original audience of this manga.

My point is that the likeable character doesn't need to be the hero, it just has to be somebody. I get that Japan's use of the roughly equivalent term doesn't carry the moral baggage that it does in the west. I understand that the trope in these sorts of "I was kicked out of the hero party but I'm actually OP" and it makes sense for them to be the villain in that sort of story. I think it's overdone but the manga industry is nothing if not overdone. So I have no issue with the hero character being an unrepentant asshole.

But if you're going that route then the characters that oppose the hero should be decent and likeable to some extent. And usually they are even if they have some annoying traits (being an extreme doormat, refusing to believe they're actually as capable as they are, deferring to the asshole "hero" even when he's clearly in the wrong, etc).

If Allan is going to be the typical asshole hero guy, that's fine. But then you reveal that Tony isn't necessarily a whole lot better. Sure. Ok. Maybe make a statement about how the hero system is warped and broken and generally only produces or attracts sociopaths, selfish twats, and monsters. I'm on board for that. Now really the only character left who can pick up the slack as the audience anchor is Rick. Except the author has gone out of their way to make sure we know that he doesn't feel any guilt or remorse over killing adventurers in the labyrinth and we've gotten some added backstory to suggest that maybe he was always a little disconnected. It feels like that was done to free him from angsting over having to commit atrocities to save himself since he's the dungeon master, but by just removing his empathy from the equation it makes him less relatable instead of more agreeable.

So now we're left with a story where I really don't care that much about what happens. Sure Allan needs to lose because he's irredeemable, but Rick winning isn't a victory as much as it is just the preferable alternative. That kneecaps how much I can invest in the story.

And I know someone's going to say "it's just a silly manga, it's not that deep." but the point isn't to be incredibly deep and thought provoking. Everything I'm talking about is extremely surface level. And surface level stuff should be the bare minimum that any story, even the most shallow, silly nonsense, should strive for.

 

[Hoezell]

Although a minor character, Tony should get his own isekai reincarnation manga for us to call it trash and read it like a bunch of drug addicts.

 

[avefenixflames]

What manga is this from ?

Yasei no Last Boss ga Arawareta!

 

[usman1000]

You know, I never thought this manga would spark nuanced discussions on what being a “hero“ means.

 

[Haru777]

Everybody in this story sucks to some degree. And I think that's why I'm having a hard time maintaining my interest. It's hard to get into a story when there's nobody to root for. Even Rick, the actual protagonist, is kind of losing it with his morally dubious choices. He just get a built in excuse because apparently being a dungeon master blunts his sense of guilt and empathy and that's supposed to make it OK.

The only character who seemed entirely and legitimately decent is the cleric girl (Mary?) and that might just be because we haven't seen enough of her to find out that she eats babies or something gruesome like that.

I've seen your other comments too and here's the thing.

You can make unlikeable people be the MCs and drive the story. You just have to make them interesting.

For instance (I always love using this example) Bojack Horseman. The MC has moments but hes a terrible person who has done horrible things and yet we relate to him and hope for him even if we dont want to.

The problem is that this sort of interesting writing is hard to pull off, especially in a short manga thats just a paint by numbers fantasy trope story.

And there is stuff here that can be interesting even if we dont find the characters likeable. The whole hero system and how Allen and Rick are just pawns in it, Rick falling even further and losing his humanity thanks to the dungeon, stuff like that.

But again, stuff like this needs a good writer and a set up that isnt always as shallow as a puddle.

 

[Haru777]

the source to tony's suffering is not the other Wannabe heroes. but the old man. HE and he alone did choose these monsters as heroes. nope. he is trying to kill the wrong person. he should have killed the old man instead.
but at least Tony did remove a heartless fraud.

and odd there is no an Anti hero warrior force whose purpose is to kill rogue heroes.

And what good would that do? The old man is a cog in a greater machine, a recruiter that can be replaced. Toni's suffering is the system set in place that everyone seems to go along with and his own ego and hypocritical views

 

[Darkshade13]

I've seen your other comments too and here's the thing.

You can make unlikeable people be the MCs and drive the story. You just have to make them interesting.

For instance (I always love using this example) Bojack Horseman. The MC has moments but hes a terrible person who has done horrible things and yet we relate to him and hope for him even if we dont want to.

The problem is that this sort of interesting writing is hard to pull off, especially in a short manga thats just a paint by numbers fantasy trope story.

And there is stuff here that can be interesting even if we dont find the characters likeable. The whole hero system and how Allen and Rick are just pawns in it, Rick falling even further and losing his humanity thanks to the dungeon, stuff like that.

But again, stuff like this needs a good writer and a set up that isnt always as shallow as a puddle.

That's all very true. But most of the time somewhere in the story somebody has to be likeable. There has to be an oasis in the middle that keeps you anchored to the story or eventually the overwhelming avalanche of garbage-tier people is going to burn you out (unless the story is a comedy and you get the levity of the awful characters getting their comeuppance/karmic retribution from time to time. I haven't watched a lot of it, but Bojack Horseman feels like a fit. Or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia)

Like you said, it is possible to do a dark story where everyone sucks and make it interesting, but it probably can't last that long before you crush the audience under the weight of how depressing it is, and you have to be a damn good writer to keep up the momentum necessary to stop that from happening. Problem is that few writers are that good, and this writer clearly isn't even anywhere close.

 

[Haru777]

That's all very true. But most of the time somewhere in the story somebody has to be likeable. There has to be an oasis in the middle that keeps you anchored to the story or eventually the overwhelming avalanche of garbage-tier people is going to burn you out (unless the story is a comedy and you get the levity of the awful characters getting their comeuppance/karmic retribution from time to time. I haven't watched a lot of it, but Bojack Horseman feels like a fit. Or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia)

Like you said, it is possible to do a dark story where everyone sucks and make it interesting, but it probably can't last that long before you crush the audience under the weight of how depressing it is, and you have to be a damn good writer to keep up the momentum necessary to stop that from happening. Problem is that few writers are that good, and this writer clearly isn't even anywhere close.

Thats true, Bojack had Todd. And yeah, theres comedy and some karma but the realism and dark relatability is just... its hard to describe unless you watch it yourself cause season 1 is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Broforcee]

damn yall are zooming with this upload schedule

 

[JKLnHYD]

Tony - Is a dumbass who could have just let Allen die and move forward, were it not for his ego stroking plan.
Allen - Is a dumbass who(along with everyone else?) thinks he has a special skill that just happens to trigger after taking his steroi-err golden potion.
Rick - Is...there. Sometimes.

 

[exxeld]

Tony’s a real one I hope Rick manages to use him well lmao

 

[BatCrow]

Has that actually been stated anywhere, because according to Allan that's always the way he's looked at people, like they are guinea pigs to be experimented on?

It was directly mentioned by the spirit lady when he was mildly distressed about being okay with killing. Allen's view with the guinea pigs is just his biased telling and how he justifies in his own mind.

 

[Nilinor]

It was directly mentioned by the spirit lady when he was mildly distressed about being okay with killing. Allen's view with the guinea pigs is just his biased telling and how he justifies in his own mind.

His ego too. He doesn't want to admit he was only as powerful as he was because of Rick. Part of the reason for the removal was to prove to himself more than anyone else, he didn't need Rick to be the best. Since then he has been failing all the time. Now he is back in the saddle, and to him "See this proves I dont need Rick".

I think that is part of Rick's plan now, is to basically show up and be like "I see you drank the potion I made. How does it feel to need someone else to be powerful?" basically to shatter his mind, as well as tell Allen "If you kill me, you will never be this powerful again"