Tsuihou Suru Gawa no Monogatari - Vol. 1 Ch. 8 - Daru vs. Frey

[SpecialProjectY]

The banished guy cannot buff himself. He can't move well. And he almost got killed many times.

He can. Est were too busy buffing others, didn't realise he can do that to himself and did that pretty darn good.

Had similar experience playing old Hack&Slash MMORPG, during it's release one class had defense aura, attack buff and heal, The Basics. Build was straightforward, you buff lazy bastards and keep them alive while investing progressively in energy+strength+agility, higher energy=better buff and rest stats for wearing armour to hunt in better places.
Then people figured out, why not wear just your basic gear or go butt naked, pumping all points to energy and blasting everything with a shop bow. It worked that darn well they nerfed it down, but not enough to make a sub-class anyway.

 

[Puck2]

Read the first chapter again.
Daru can't "train" them to be better. It's all about stats. The banished guy cannot buff himself. He can't move well. And he almost got killed many times. Plus. It was the leader girl who wanted to banish him, not Daru. He even wanted to wait for the guy to "awaken". He can teach them techniques, but if their body and memory is so bad that they can't do it, then it's meaningless.

It's like a professional programmer teaching you about programming, but you're horrible at math and numbers no matter how many hours you put into it... you won't improve. That's how the banished guy was. You can't do, what you can't do.

The problem with this theory: Est can fight an protect himself now because he has awakened.
Thus he could return to the party and everyone could be happy: Athena and Est could become childhood friends again and nobody would have to be afraid because Est can defend himself plus buff the party.
The only problem is: Est hates Athena and Daru because he thinks that they kicked him out so that they could become intimate without him interfering. Daru knows that. He (sadly, the author chose him to be the MMC) is the only person in this story who knows the real reason why Est is so angry. He could solve all the misunderstandings "Hey Athena, Est saw something that night and misunderstood the whole situation", "Hey Est, now that we've calmed down a bit, there's really something I have to explain. Let's talk this out.
But instead he just goes with "What a pity, he's drunk on power. Nothing we can do about it (come on, even Luke tried to rescue Darth Vader). Stop thinking about him and distract Athena with some special training." Wow, such an adorable person.

 

[Puck2]

This is based on the same premise as the typical banished story. Est can only use one ability and it later does everything. He couldn't train him because of that typical setup, Est couldn't apply anything he could teach. Remember, even physical fighters use their own kind of buffing magic and Frey, Athena, and Daru all use the same kind while Est uses something Daru can't do.

In other banished story you find at least remorse from one former party member (at least if the author tried to make them likable). But the author misses every chance to do this. The only attempt is Athena but instead of remorse for losing her best friend she focuses on her training (everybody likes endless training arks without any progress in the story ... not) and forgets completely about him except when she coincidentally meets him in the guild. And even there we just have a short moment of remorse and a lot of self pity, blaming Est and worshiping Daru. The moment that could have caused some self reflection in Athena is interrupted by Daru with some corny lines. They leave the guild and forget about Est again.

 

[Meridis]

In other banished story you find at least remorse from one former party member (at least if the author tried to make them likable). But the author misses every chance to do this. The only attempt is Athena but instead of remorse for losing her best friend she focuses on her training (everybody likes endless training arks without any progress in the story ... not) and forgets completely about him except when she coincidentally meets him in the guild. And even there we just have a short moment of remorse and a lot of self pity, blaming Est and worshiping Daru. The moment that could have caused some self reflection in Athena is interrupted by Daru with some corny lines. They leave the guild and forget about Est again.

In those other stories, the banished character would have forgiven them and they would both move forward, which Est did not then. This is also a story about them, so they have to move on and train, not cry to him then die/retire like normal. Normally, the party would obsess over the banished mc one way or another and be gone only when they are done being useful for his plot. They have their own plot so their story isn't just apologizing to or fighting him.

 

[Puck2]

In those other stories, the banished character would have forgiven them and they would both move forward, which Est did not then. This is also a story about them, so they have to move on and train, not cry to him then die/retire like normal. Normally, the party would obsess over the banished mc one way or another and be gone only when they are done being useful for his plot. They have their own plot so their story isn't just apologizing to or fighting him.

But the problem is that the author chose to create a stupid love triangle with a FMC who doesn't get the feelings of the banished, a banished who was crazy in love with the FMC and another party member who's chosen to be the love interest of the MC, who could solve all misunderstandings but doesn't.
Either it's a cultural thing or the author simply didn't get the contradictions in the story.

 

[Meridis]

But the problem is that the author chose to create a stupid love triangle with a FMC who doesn't get the feelings of the banished, a banished who was crazy in love with the FMC and another party member who's chosen to be the love interest of the MC, who could solve all misunderstandings but doesn't.
Either it's a cultural thing or the author simply didn't get the contradictions in the story.

Est had a crush on her. Because he obsesses over her it doesn't make anything anyone else does a contradiction. More so, people keep saying that he just doesn't try to solve it. Read the earlier chapters again. He chased after him when he ran away to try and tell him, but Est didn't want to listen. What do you want him to do if Est doesn't want to listen? Do you want him to go and tell Athena "Hey, Est has a crush on you, go out with him."? She doesn't love him. It doesn't matter if he keeps playing favorites with his buffs like before or running around trying to be useful to her because you can't win someone's love. So, what misunderstanding did he not bother to solve and what contradictions are in the story?

 

[Puck2]

Est had a crush on her. Because he obsesses over her it doesn't make anything anyone else does a contradiction. More so, people keep saying that he just doesn't try to solve it. Read the earlier chapters again. He chased after him when he ran away to try and tell him, but Est didn't want to listen. What do you want him to do if Est doesn't want to listen? Do you want him to go and tell Athena "Hey, Est has a crush on you, go out with him."? She doesn't love him. It doesn't matter if he keeps playing favorites with his buffs like before or running around trying to be useful to her because you can't win someone's love. So, what misunderstanding did he not bother to solve and what contradictions are in the story?

As I've already written in discussions in other chapters, with this setup, it's just impossible to make the party not seem like assholes.
If you really want to solve a misunderstanding there are other than times and places to do this, maybe after the person has calmed down a bit. It's also not limited to times when you coincidentally meet the person somewhere. You could arrange a meeting, write a letter or even involve a third party.
I accept that you like the story. I was also looking forward to a story which is different to the typical banished story. But in my opinion the author made so many mistakes that the story is just unbearable.

• Except for Athena, who hurts him the most in the end, he has no friends in the party
• from his point of view she betrays him (kicking him out is already enough + possible love affair with Daru)
• from his point of view, Daru betrays him, because he knows that Est loves her and starts an affair with her
• elf girl openly dislikes him because he's close to Athena

So tell me one reason why he shouldn't hate the party. The left him with nothing. They had the choice, Est didn't. I don't intend to hate the victim in this story for the sake of the "let's sympathize
with the banishing party"- plot, because they are clearly at fault (especially Daru)
As was already mentioned, everything could be solved with one discussion with all party members but to continue the story all character (also Est) act amazingly stupid so much that it hurts. The author just wanted to include too many topics (love, friendship, rivalry, training vs op power...) but the story is so shallow that he didn't even manage to achieve one.

 

[Meridis]

As I've already written in discussions in other chapters, with this setup, it's just impossible to make the party not seem like assholes.
If you really want to solve a misunderstanding there are other than times and places to do this, maybe after the person has calmed down a bit. It's also not limited to times when you coincidentally meet the person somewhere. You could arrange a meeting, write a letter or even involve a third party.
I accept that you like the story. I was also looking forward to a story which is different to the typical banished story. But in my opinion the author made so many mistakes that the story is just unbearable.

• Except for Athena, who hurts him the most in the end, he has no friends in the party
• from his point of view she betrays him (kicking him out is already enough + possible love affair with Daru)
• from his point of view, Daru betrays him, because he knows that Est loves her and starts an affair with her
• elf girl openly dislikes him because he's close to Athena

So tell me one reason why he shouldn't hate the party. The left him with nothing. They had the choice, Est didn't. I don't intend to hate the victim in this story for the sake of the "let's sympathize
with the banishing party"- plot, because they are clearly at fault (especially Daru)
As was already mentioned, everything could be solved with one discussion with all party members but to continue the story all character (also Est) act amazingly stupid so much that it hurts. The author just wanted to include too many topics (love, friendship, rivalry, training vs op power...) but the story is so shallow that he didn't even manage to achieve one.

I'm don't think this one is particularly good or bad. It's just annoying most of the hate and downvotes it gets come from people not buying into the concept by ignoring events or overly sympathizing with Est. Yeah, he feels bad, but he's also factually wrong outside of his sudden powerup.

He might have the point of view that Daru betrayed him to pursue Athena but that was a conclusion he came to in a circumstance he should not have created by returning to their house in the middle of the night. It is also, of course, wrong and he wasn't willing to listen at the time. He was told again later when they met at the guild counter that it was a misunderstanding and ignored it. Your suggestion of having a third party wouldn't change anything as it's just a third party reiterating what has already been said without anything to contribute.

His feelings of betrayal from the idea of Athena being in a relationship with Daru also aren't based on reality. Not only is it not true, but he was also never in a relationship with her in the first place. For kicking him out, the manga version doesn't convey it well, but this wasn't something out of the blue, he knew this was coming because of how he was performing. He was trying to compensate for it by doing other work, but the situation was getting more dangerous like that until he nearly died before the start of the story. Were it not for his sudden change from how he's been all his life, it would be clear that he just could not survive doing this job. He knew this.

For the elf girl, it's also partially Est's fault on that one, though she only mentions it in passing. As a buffer or support, Est doesn't treat them equally or fairly. Whether it's his crush before or resentment now, he has an unhealthy preoccupation with Athena and prioritized her to the exclusion of the other two. Her being attracted to Athena too might lead one to think it's just another lesbian character interfering in the main couple's romance but that romance isn't real while her criticisms of Est as a partner/coworker are.

So, the fault for the banishment itself was mostly on circumstance. The way Athena handled it was actually proper for these kinds of situations, explaining it to him in a neutral and matter-of-fact manner. You aren't supposed to get personal or be long winded and the explanation was sufficient for the context. Est only acts surprised because he's been in denial and quickly became hostile. He then has an extreme and unreasonable response by throwing himself into a situation he knows he would die in. This isn't their fault either as they made the decision and kicked him out by the book, the way you would be taught in HR. He then showed up at their home in the middle of the night and just opened the door, came to the wrong conclusion from what he saw, then refused explanations both at the time and when they met later. They aren't the ones at fault.

Though, again, I don't think this story is particularly good either. I just think that a lot of the criticisms are wrong in that they are based on incorrect information. It does have an interesting concept that's worth exploring but it isn't doing as bad a job exploring it as you suggested, even if not great. Honestly, outside of the best, it's mostly mid stories that have the most worthwhile conversations to be had. There was a WN that finished awhile ago, HUGE FREAKING HOLY (all one noun). An interesting concept (rather than just the mc getting banished, its massive layoffs throughout the country as royalty pushes for automation and to get ride of an international armed organizations like the adventurer's guild to maintain the monopoly on violence governments are defined by.) and side characters (two of the mc's students and a weapon anthropomorphized into a girl create a phantom thief troupe to do stuff like steal/redirect newly discovered geothermal vents and newly formed rivers from a prosperous country to a poor one just to prove that it could reverse the poor country's desertification.) However, the mc is frustratingly detached enough to make it mid. For example, he admits that he can't have a relationship or have children because he would actually abandon the child the second he got bored of 'teaching' them as a hobby. 'Teaching' here mostly being going up to generic banished mcs and telling them a matching generic use for their skills before he fucks off and pretends they don't exist. Also, the title is fucking stupid. Well worth talking about.

 

[Puck2]

I'm don't think this one is particularly good or bad. It's just annoying most of the hate and downvotes it gets come from people not buying into the concept by ignoring events or overly sympathizing with Est. Yeah, he feels bad, but he's also factually wrong outside of his sudden powerup.

He might have the point of view that Daru betrayed him to pursue Athena but that was a conclusion he came to in a circumstance he should not have created by returning to their house in the middle of the night. It is also, of course, wrong and he wasn't willing to listen at the time. He was told again later when they met at the guild counter that it was a misunderstanding and ignored it. Your suggestion of having a third party wouldn't change anything as it's just a third party reiterating what has already been said without anything to contribute.

His feelings of betrayal from the idea of Athena being in a relationship with Daru also aren't based on reality. Not only is it not true, but he was also never in a relationship with her in the first place. For kicking him out, the manga version doesn't convey it well, but this wasn't something out of the blue, he knew this was coming because of how he was performing. He was trying to compensate for it by doing other work, but the situation was getting more dangerous like that until he nearly died before the start of the story. Were it not for his sudden change from how he's been all his life, it would be clear that he just could not survive doing this job. He knew this.

For the elf girl, it's also partially Est's fault on that one, though she only mentions it in passing. As a buffer or support, Est doesn't treat them equally or fairly. Whether it's his crush before or resentment now, he has an unhealthy preoccupation with Athena and prioritized her to the exclusion of the other two. Her being attracted to Athena too might lead one to think it's just another lesbian character interfering in the main couple's romance but that romance isn't real while her criticisms of Est as a partner/coworker are.

So, the fault for the banishment itself was mostly on circumstance. The way Athena handled it was actually proper for these kinds of situations, explaining it to him in a neutral and matter-of-fact manner. You aren't supposed to get personal or be long winded and the explanation was sufficient for the context. Est only acts surprised because he's been in denial and quickly became hostile. He then has an extreme and unreasonable response by throwing himself into a situation he knows he would die in. This isn't their fault either as they made the decision and kicked him out by the book, the way you would be taught in HR. He then showed up at their home in the middle of the night and just opened the door, came to the wrong conclusion from what he saw, then refused explanations both at the time and when they met later. They aren't the ones at fault.

Though, again, I don't think this story is particularly good either. I just think that a lot of the criticisms are wrong in that they are based on incorrect information. It does have an interesting concept that's worth exploring but it isn't doing as bad a job exploring it as you suggested, even if not great. Honestly, outside of the best, it's mostly mid stories that have the most worthwhile conversations to be had. There was a WN that finished awhile ago, HUGE FREAKING HOLY (all one noun). An interesting concept (rather than just the mc getting banished, its massive layoffs throughout the country as royalty pushes for automation and to get ride of an international armed organizations like the adventurer's guild to maintain the monopoly on violence governments are defined by.) and side characters (two of the mc's students and a weapon anthropomorphized into a girl create a phantom thief troupe to do stuff like steal/redirect newly discovered geothermal vents and newly formed rivers from a prosperous country to a poor one just to prove that it could reverse the poor country's desertification.) However, the mc is frustratingly detached enough to make it mid. For example, he admits that he can't have a relationship or have children because he would actually abandon the child the second he got bored of 'teaching' them as a hobby. 'Teaching' here mostly being going up to generic banished mcs and telling them a matching generic use for their skills before he fucks off and pretends they don't exist. Also, the title is fucking stupid. Well worth talking about.

I get some of your points. As I already mentioned Est also makes mistakes (which are understandable to a certain degree in the heat of the moment). All characters behave stupid to such a degree that reading this manga is a pain.

But I think your evaluation is a bit harsh. If you want to apply arguments of HR you should forget about the friendship plot. The author's idea was to make their great friendship the reason for Est's banishment (guess the author intended to make her more likable) but she doesn't behave like a friend but like someone from HR, as you already mentioned. She forgets pretty fast about her childhood friend.
He enters the house (which was also his house recently) in the middle of the night, not because he wanted to stalk her but to tell his "best friend" that he can finally use his power in a way to not drag the party down.
From HR point of view it would also have been a mistake to fire him. Est carried the party which you can see from their poor results in the following raids. In this sense their justification would be: "Let's fire the hard-working employee. He could overwork himself in our company. Let's risk him entering another company where he can overwork himself." What does she expect him to do? To change jobs (buffer is his occupation)? That's quite unlikely. It would be far more dangerous for him in a party with people who don't care for him. So she puts him in even more danger. I wouldn't go so far to accuse her of wanting him dead but the only thing she changes would be that he won't die next to her but somewhere else with the feeling that his best friend (her perspective)/ love (his perspective) banished him. That's a pretty selfish reason. To make her more likable a few panels with self reflection would have been nice.

Again, I don't think that Daru really tries to clear up the misunderstandings. There are two occasions, that's it. With his wisdom and experience he should be able to do more. He shows more persistence when training Frey (who offered her virginity). It seems that he simply doesn't care (In the webnovel it's even more obvious). He doesn't have to make Est and Athena a couple but he could at least try to save their friendship. Additionally, there are panels where Daru appears absolutely sleazy (they are so sleazy that they have to be intended). Without these, the manga might actually be bearable.

I think interpreting their actions from HR point of view contradicts the main point of plot: banishment because of friendship.
HR often act cold and indifferent towards former employees. That's okay for a company but not for a group of friends.

After Est's awakening there would be a chance for reconciliation, as the reason why he was banished disappeared: He won't die because he is weak. But just after one meeting (even from Athena's point of view his actions should be understandable) he's forsaken by his best friend again. Instead of making up with a friend they put all their energy to integrate a stranger into the party.

To sum it up: Unfortunately, your HR interpretation of the manga (which sadly is the only way to make this manga work) doesn't work for me. In my opinion, if you do this, you have to throw away the concept of friendship in this story, which was supposed to be the driving force to make the party likable.

 

[SpecialProjectY]

I'm don't think this one is particularly good or bad. It's just annoying most of the hate and downvotes it gets come from people not buying into the concept by ignoring events or overly sympathizing with Est. Yeah, he feels bad, but he's also factually wrong outside of his sudden powerup.

He might have the point of view that Daru betrayed him to pursue Athena but that was a conclusion he came to in a circumstance he should not have created by returning to their house in the middle of the night. It is also, of course, wrong and he wasn't willing to listen at the time. He was told again later when they met at the guild counter that it was a misunderstanding and ignored it. Your suggestion of having a third party wouldn't change anything as it's just a third party reiterating what has already been said without anything to contribute.

His feelings of betrayal from the idea of Athena being in a relationship with Daru also aren't based on reality. Not only is it not true, but he was also never in a relationship with her in the first place. For kicking him out, the manga version doesn't convey it well, but this wasn't something out of the blue, he knew this was coming because of how he was performing. He was trying to compensate for it by doing other work, but the situation was getting more dangerous like that until he nearly died before the start of the story. Were it not for his sudden change from how he's been all his life, it would be clear that he just could not survive doing this job. He knew this.

For the elf girl, it's also partially Est's fault on that one, though she only mentions it in passing. As a buffer or support, Est doesn't treat them equally or fairly. Whether it's his crush before or resentment now, he has an unhealthy preoccupation with Athena and prioritized her to the exclusion of the other two. Her being attracted to Athena too might lead one to think it's just another lesbian character interfering in the main couple's romance but that romance isn't real while her criticisms of Est as a partner/coworker are.

So, the fault for the banishment itself was mostly on circumstance. The way Athena handled it was actually proper for these kinds of situations, explaining it to him in a neutral and matter-of-fact manner. You aren't supposed to get personal or be long winded and the explanation was sufficient for the context. Est only acts surprised because he's been in denial and quickly became hostile. He then has an extreme and unreasonable response by throwing himself into a situation he knows he would die in. This isn't their fault either as they made the decision and kicked him out by the book, the way you would be taught in HR. He then showed up at their home in the middle of the night and just opened the door, came to the wrong conclusion from what he saw, then refused explanations both at the time and when they met later. They aren't the ones at fault.

Though, again, I don't think this story is particularly good either. I just think that a lot of the criticisms are wrong in that they are based on incorrect information. It does have an interesting concept that's worth exploring but it isn't doing as bad a job exploring it as you suggested, even if not great. Honestly, outside of the best, it's mostly mid stories that have the most worthwhile conversations to be had. There was a WN that finished awhile ago, HUGE FREAKING HOLY (all one noun). An interesting concept (rather than just the mc getting banished, its massive layoffs throughout the country as royalty pushes for automation and to get ride of an international armed organizations like the adventurer's guild to maintain the monopoly on violence governments are defined by.) and side characters (two of the mc's students and a weapon anthropomorphized into a girl create a phantom thief troupe to do stuff like steal/redirect newly discovered geothermal vents and newly formed rivers from a prosperous country to a poor one just to prove that it could reverse the poor country's desertification.) However, the mc is frustratingly detached enough to make it mid. For example, he admits that he can't have a relationship or have children because he would actually abandon the child the second he got bored of 'teaching' them as a hobby. 'Teaching' here mostly being going up to generic banished mcs and telling them a matching generic use for their skills before he fucks off and pretends they don't exist. Also, the title is fucking stupid. Well worth talking about.

Est and Athena relationship wouldn't be "just childhood friends" for him acting heartbroken after The Misunderstanding. If you would walk on your childhood friend, would you be "fussy"? Heck no.

Best of this is, Athena doesn't know about The Misunderstanding and thinks Est is getting back on her decision for whatever reason acting with pitty, feeding from their misery.

Moreover, the point is they ditched the support who like them was training, just to "notice" by oh so observant and wise Daru they need to work together in order to achieve a goal efficiently. That's some big brain there.

The set up is young looking old bastard with stolen girlfriend, lesbian support fuck buddy and bdsm dragon.

Let's be honest here, it's a fantasy NTR story and proceeded to downvote into oblivion.

 

[Meridis]

But I think your evaluation is a bit harsh. If you want to apply arguments of HR you should forget about the friendship plot. The author's idea was to make their great friendship the reason for Est's banishment (guess the author intended to make her more likable) but she doesn't behave like a friend but like someone from HR, as you already mentioned. She forgets pretty fast about her childhood friend.

On her approach being appropriate for HR but not a friend, yes, because you can't fire someone and stay friends. That wouldn't be possible in real life and she acknowledges that. The best you could hope for is to just have the appropriate professionalism.

He enters the house (which was also his house recently) in the middle of the night, not because he wanted to stalk her but to tell his "best friend" that he can finally use his power in a way to not drag the party down.
From HR point of view it would also have been a mistake to fire him. Est carried the party which you can see from their poor results in the following raids. In this sense their justification would be: "Let's fire the hard-working employee. He could overwork himself in our company. Let's risk him entering another company where he can overwork himself." What does she expect him to do? To change jobs (buffer is his occupation)? That's quite unlikely. It would be far more dangerous for him in a party with people who don't care for him. So she puts him in even more danger. I wouldn't go so far to accuse her of wanting him dead but the only thing she changes would be that he won't die next to her but somewhere else with the feeling that his best friend (her perspective)/ love (his perspective) banished him. That's a pretty selfish reason. To make her more likable a few panels with self reflection would have been nice.

It wouldn't be a mistake from an HR point of view because the reasoning was true. He showed no improvement regardless of training (he didn't teach him martial arts using their magic but he did teach them as general adventurers). If you were fired then went to school and got a degree in your field and came back, they wouldn't look at the firing before as a mistake as you couldn't do your job then, they would only consider you again from the beginning while keeping a record that you had worked for them before, was fired, and the reasoning for it.

As for what they expected him to do, probably not almost die again. There are normal jobs. A normal person would respond to almost dying the first time by considering retirement. There's another banished story where the banishing party almost die after the guy is kicked out and half of them respond to that by planning to return home to help their family out and getting normal jobs. The only one that tries to stay is the villain who fixates on being an adventurer and reclaiming their past glory. I have more to say on this in regards the HR vs Friendship angle but it would be better to some that up at the end.

Again, I don't think that Daru really tries to clear up the misunderstandings. There are two occasions, that's it. With his wisdom and experience he should be able to do more. He shows more persistence when training Frey (who offered her virginity). It seems that he simply doesn't care (In the webnovel it's even more obvious). He doesn't have to make Est and Athena a couple but he could at least try to save their friendship. Additionally, there are panels where Daru appears absolutely sleazy (they are so sleazy that they have to be intended). Without these, the manga might actually be bearable.

To be fair, those were the only two meetings and he tried both times. His wisdom and experience is also in being an adventurer and not mediating emotional relationships. It's completely true that he's much more callous about it in the web novel. It was probably changed for being too unsympathetic and making it harder to root for them (kinda the root problem people are having anyways). They aren't all childhood friends, it's just that Est and Athena met the elf then asked Daru to join and teach them since Athena remembers him saving their village, kinda. Athena is the only one with a preexisting relationship with Est.

That said, this does make it look weird that he's willing to put out for these girls, like you're saying. There's a lot of things that could have been done to make this work better. Frey not offering sex, at least ONE of them being male, actually showing that he's been struggling for a long time with no improvement from the beginning and not just mentioning it later, explaining how their system works at the start and the problems they were having. There's reason why we're not discussing if it is good or bad but if its mid mid or bad mid.

I think interpreting their actions from HR point of view contradicts the main point of plot: banishment because of friendship.
HR often act cold and indifferent towards former employees. That's okay for a company but not for a group of friends.

After Est's awakening there would be a chance for reconciliation, as the reason why he was banished disappeared: He won't die because he is weak. But just after one meeting (even from Athena's point of view his actions should be understandable) he's forsaken by his best friend again. Instead of making up with a friend they put all their energy to integrate a stranger into the party.

To sum it up: Unfortunately, your HR interpretation of the manga (which sadly is the only way to make this manga work) doesn't work for me. In my opinion, if you do this, you have to throw away the concept of friendship in this story, which was supposed to be the driving force to make the party likable.

Yeah, you do have to throw away the friendship. Though that's sort of how it works. You wouldn't be able to fire a friend and stay friends. The other manga were they manage to 'kick him out' and stay friends it was more like they convinced him to quit and pursue a different dream. As far as reconciliation after Est's awakening, it might be understandable and cathartic but Est's comments aren't the kind you would make if there's a possibility of convincing you to come back, especially if you're willing to say it in public. I think it's proper to give up on it at that point.

I think one of the main problems is that the kinda story the author is trying to twist has a lot of problems to begin with. It would be easier if they weren't Est and Athena weren't friends and they could still make the same argument out of general concern for the safety of Est and the group but in these stories the banished one and the 'hero' are usually childhood friends. A setup were someone just CAN'T do something and then suddenly CAN for no reason is also pretty stupid. So, on top of bad choices in explanations and timing, it's trying to work around something that already has a bunch of issues.

Something you probably would like a lot more than this is Welcome to the Impregnable Demon King Castle. It's still from the banished's side but the fire hero childhood friend and the ice heroine that replaces the mc are pretty likeable. It comes at the expense of the other's likeability since the others were set on kicking him out while the friend resisted the whole way. The point for kicking him out still stands though, since it's after the worlds at peace and they televise dungeon raids as a sporting event, the issue was that human fans didn't like/understand his powers the way demons would.

 

[Meridis]

Est and Athena relationship wouldn't be "just childhood friends" for him acting heartbroken after The Misunderstanding. If you would walk on your childhood friend, would you be "fussy"? Heck no.

Best of this is, Athena doesn't know about The Misunderstanding and thinks Est is getting back on her decision for whatever reason acting with pitty, feeding from their misery.

Moreover, the point is they ditched the support who like them was training, just to "notice" by oh so observant and wise Daru they need to work together in order to achieve a goal efficiently. That's some big brain there.

The set up is young looking old bastard with stolen girlfriend, lesbian support fuck buddy and bdsm dragon.

Let's be honest here, it's a fantasy NTR story and proceeded to downvote into oblivion.

Just in Est's mind. He had a crush and was the sort that thought something would happen if he kept doing stuff for her.

For Athena, that's explicitly the case. She doesn't know about it and just sees it as the result of kicking him.

As far as them suddenly noticing, the only one that this changed anything for is Athena. She never fought without him and got most of his support. It didn't change anything for the other two and they don't need to fix their coordination or anything. Though he was training too, nothing was improving for him, and he almost died.

 

[SpecialProjectY]

Just in Est's mind. He had a crush and was the sort that thought something would happen if he kept doing stuff for her.

For Athena, that's explicitly the case. She doesn't know about it and just sees it as the result of kicking him.

As far as them suddenly noticing, the only one that this changed anything for is Athena. She never fought without him and got most of his support. It didn't change anything for the other two and they don't need to fix their coordination or anything. Though he was training too, nothing was improving for him, and he almost died.

It's rather not obvious they weren't in any relationship tho' , reason why probably people dislike the story...

 

[Puck2]

On her approach being appropriate for HR but not a friend, yes, because you can't fire someone and stay friends. That wouldn't be possible in real life and she acknowledges that. The best you could hope for is to just have the appropriate professionalism.

That's true, but what I'm missing are a few panels where she at least thinks about their friendship showing that she really valued him as a friend. But there are just two scenes (when she's drunk and in the guild building) with the focus to make her the victim. She seems to pity herself and how she and her party treated but in her thoughts there is never a word about Est's feelings. It's just sad, in my opinion, that Est had such strong feelings for her and she seems to forget about him as soon as she kicked him out of the party.

It wouldn't be a mistake from an HR point of view because the reasoning was true.

Even if he didn't show any improvement he was already so strong that he carried the party. From HR point of view it would be a super mistake to fire such a worker. Daru could already have started his special training with the other members of the party while keeping Est in the party for raids. Thus the overall strength of the party would have increased without a downfall and everybody would be happy.

they wouldn't look at the firing before as a mistake

That's true, but they would try to get him back instead of training another person who's not fit for the position.

To be fair, those were the only two meetings and he tried both times.

As I already mentioned, that were coincidental meetings, they were not intentional ones. In my opinion, that's not trying. If i have a quarrel with a friend and want to clear a misunderstanding I call him and don't wait until I meet him accidentally in a club a few months later. That would just mean that I don't care about him and his feelings (shitty attitude for a supposed likable MC).

Even if it's no actual NTR (as you mentioned, Est and Athena are no couple although you could discuss if hitting on your friend's love interest isn't already NTR (at leat from Est's point of view)) it's perceived by the reader as such. It's only natural for the reader to root for the hard working guy. Then he's thrown out because of friendship and afterwards treated like an acquaintance. Then there's the misunderstanding:

• Est thinks they threw him because they want to become a couple
• during this event (at least in the manga) Daru starts to develop feeling for Athena ("she's cute")
• the misunderstanding isn't cleared up by him
• a scene in the guild is created where Athena probably starts to develop feelings for Daru because he supported her (a thing that Est did all the time.

Result: Est was thrown out of the party to create a love chance for Daru and Athena so that he can train her and she can admire him. Even if Daru didn't banish Est he works on keeping him out of the party.

I think it's proper to give up on it at that point.

As I already mentioned, in my opinion, Daru, who knows the truth, doesn't try hard enough (making him an extremely unlikable character)

I think one of the main problems is that the kinda story the author is trying to twist has a lot of problems to begin with. It would be easier if they weren't Est and Athena weren't friends and they could still make the same argument out of general concern for the safety of Est and the group but in these stories the banished one and the 'hero' are usually childhood friends.

I think it would already helped a lot if the author hadn't created a love triangle. Thus, even as childhood friends you could have created a friendly rivalry like in Welcome to the Impregnable Demon King Castle (you don't have to show consideration for the other party members as they are already unlikable as they are).

story the author is trying to twist has a lot of problems to begin with

That's exactly my opinion. The author created a scenario where it's impossible to like the banishing party. You have to add a lot of scenes in your imagination and interpret the story in very roundabout ways to make them at least a bit more likable (if I am forced to fill all these gaps with my imagination, the author dis a miserable job). Instead, scenes are added predestined to raise anger with Est and the readers.

That said, this does make it look weird that he's willing to put out for these girls, like you're saying. There's a lot of things that could have been done to make this work better. Frey not offering sex, at least ONE of them being male, actually showing that he's been struggling for a long time with no improvement from the beginning and not just mentioning it later, explaining how their system works at the start and the problems they were having. There's reason why we're not discussing if it is good or bad but if its mid mid or bad mid.

I totally agree with your suggested improvements even though I'm not sure they would suffice. I think part of the reason why we do have different opinions on this manga is that you have a lot of background knowledge from the webnovel which many readers don't have. After the 2nd chapter of the manga I also tried to read the webnovel to see if there is a good ending, but after a few chapters I had to stop because Daru was even more unlikable than in the manga (and the website was absolutely annoying). Thus you can probably also better ignore the sleazy panels. As the manga is now, it's really bad, in my opinion.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Even if it's true that Est finds peace in the end because he gets Athena's reason for banishing him (I think I've read it in another comment), the ending is still bad because I'm sure it's a one-sided awareness. Athena will still not know about his feelings for her and why he acted the way he did, and instead apply her attention to the person who could have cleared all misunderstandings. If they (Daru and Athena) really become a couple doesn't matter at this point.

 

[Rex_Nichts]

Read the first chapter again.
Daru can't "train" them to be better. It's all about stats. The banished guy cannot buff himself. He can't move well. And he almost got killed many times. Plus. It was the leader girl who wanted to banish him, not Daru. He even wanted to wait for the guy to "awaken". He can teach them techniques, but if their body and memory is so bad that they can't do it, then it's meaningless.

It's like a professional programmer teaching you about programming, but you're horrible at math and numbers no matter how many hours you put into it... you won't improve. That's how the banished guy was. You can't do, what you can't do.

Bad analogy. You can become good with math and numbers if you just put in effort. Unless you're actively trying NOT to improve. I'm on an engineering course and a lot of us suck at math. But I've seen people imrpove because they like the subject and they put in the effort. People who couldn't do integrals were able to get high scores on quizzes because they put in the effort. Math is not just an inherent talent that can't be imrpoved, it's also a skill you hone through countless trials and tribulations. Even if you didn't have the talent, you can still have the skill if you just try hard enough. And Est do seem like a guy who could put in effort.

 

[KuzumaKazuma]

Unfortunately no... this fucker actually trains her to be a party member, instead of doing it with Est, who they banished. This is why I hated Daru from the start, that piece of shit. Est wasn't worth his time, but instead of trying to fix the dependency of Athena on Est he decides the borderline convict dragon girl is better because reasons. Fucking bullshit.

That's because he couldn't bone Est, why the fucc should he put in the effort to help the guy? -_-

 

[monkey123]

I hope he will take Frey's virginity!

 

[packnerz]

Better if the dragon girl leaves and get better and eventually joins with Est.

 

[Trostishere]

So this is just a fight between a thug leader and a trained mercenary