Tsuihou Suru Gawa no Monogatari - Vol. 3 Ch. 23 - Athena's Dream

[rst64tlc]

Why does the author just embrace that instead, i mean look at Overlord.

I think one of the reasons why this fails so hard is because the author wants a main character, this story i see it as trying to be a deconstruction of the trope... but doing that is far too difficult and so easy to mess up, it would have been better instead as a slice of life with the main arc being that the relationship is broken because of what they did and how they interact in a place where they have to look at each other every other day

... Or make it a thriller about an old adventurer that after loosing his friends he breaks down until he finds a girl that looks like his old girlfriend/spouse/wife/etc... so he makes it so that he is introduced to the party and using his experience he finally kicks the one man stopping him from reviving the old days, just to have him survive the cave and become powerful enough to be dangerous, so now he is desperately trying to create as much a gap between them as possible, but slowly the newest member of the party realizes that something is wrong and tries to uncover what that is while avoiding both the suspicion of the rest of the party and the one that got kicked since she see him as possibly vengeful, but in reality he is also trying to find clues of the wrong doings.

Sorry for the many and long posts... i´m sick and i have nothing else to do

Honestly, someone should just me a fanfiction of this premise or better yet, just make a fanfiction where Daru dies, the party collapses, the FL tries and fails to get Est back to her party and Est just moves on from Athena all together. In my mind, this is a better character arc for Est then to be petty towards a girl who is, to be blunt, not really a good leader let alone a love interest.

After all in any team, everyone needs to watch everyone backs not just then frontliners. If anyone gets hurt/killed then that's on the leader's fault for not protecting them nor making the necessity precautions to prevent this stuff from happening. Now kicking Est would have been fine IF we saw that him getting hurt is a constant thing that been happening too much before his exile, that would've been understandable, but from what we the audience seen, and from what i heard from previous comments in earlier chapters about the light novel, this only happened once. If that all it that's to kick someone out of a party, then I wonder how this party even hopes to last in a long run without Daru power holding them. I'm aware that there are more factors on why this happened but at this point, they don't justify that actions done before the exile happened.

 

[wallsg]

The only problem that makes this manga suck is the misunderstanding that FL didnt even know about. Till the end FL had no clue about what happen at chapter 1. If the FL knew, daru didnt have chance to get closer to her. And the author made daru unintetionally stole the FL from the MC. Well that why the rating is so bad.

You mean a misunderstanding never gets corrected and peoples' lives take different paths because of it? Huh. That's never happened in real life.

 

[Rafalga]

You mean a misunderstanding never gets corrected and peoples' lives take different paths because of it? Huh. That's never happened in real life.

It does happen and it makes the one who is purposefully hiding the truth from the other party an absolute vile of a character. But Daru is not portrayed as one and that's the problem because we, readers, are able to see all sides of the equation. He is the sole reason why two childhood friends relationship destroyed beyond repair and he sees nothing wrong with it since he doesn't even consider letting the girl know. (and he won't. She will never know why Est acted the way he did.)

 

[T-sama]

My two cents, I think people misunderstand what  really drags down the manga.

1 - why they kicked Est
As usual reason they kicked him because he's just not strong enough, so it's too dangerous for him to stay, not to mention a liability for everyone else, all fine and dandy, except we're supposed to take their word on it.

At no point we even get a mention of them trying to help Est get stronger, or even help the party in other ways, anything at all, he's simply dead weight and that's it.

2 - lack of communication
People keep pointing out Daru and Est misunderstanding, I argue they're wrong, it's not just a misunderstanding because Daru understands what happened, author simply choose to not have him talk with Est because... Reasons.

But that isn't even the only example, when they kicked Est out is perfect example too, we get multiple mentions on how Athena thought they should kick him for his own good, how she's worried about him, yet she never says anything, hell even Mirialia had that worry from what I remember, she never really hated Est as much as some say, but of course she also never explain herself.

---

Really, the idea is good, problem is that it don't outright deconstruct this type of story by playing the begining completely straight, it might have worked if the characters actually were scumbags and the story was told from the pov of the villains, but instead we're supposed to see them sympathetically when it had them act in the worst way possible.

I believe if we had a little of a prologue showing them try to help Est and he really be as incompetent as they say, plus not depend on cheap lack of communication, it would have gone a long way to make everything better.

Unfortunately the start of the story completely poisoned the well, and then after that it keeps doing a lot of poor choices on how to develop the story and characters.

 

[monkey123]

Who will get grilled next?

 

[asherdales]

Yet more trash story telling. I get what the author was trying for, having the demon overpower the FL's party in order to make the demon seem dangerous. Dale coming in to save the day from an overwhelming force will make him seem more heroic and strong. The problem is that after Est was banished the party cohesion fell apart and we were shown just how weak they actually were without him. They never regained their former power so the big bad threat isn't all that threatening because the party was never strong (except Dale).

The rating is so bad because it's exceedingly difficult if not impossible to make this sort of setting work so that the readers would accept the characters well enough. The very setting dictated the majority of the group had to be nasty people who ruthlessly kicked out an old, hard-working, vital member of their team. Because that's the stereotypic setting of many a fantasy manga, and exactly what this story is trying to reflect from the opposite direction. So, the setting purposefully makes the readers dislike the main characters. It would take a whole lot of excellent writing to make up for it. This story is hardly doing that. Perhaps if we had had ten chapters of the team working "normally" with Est included, before the expulsion event, to give a positive image and personality to everyone, things might be different. Hard to say.

I don't think it's all that hard to subvert this trope. Have the beginning be more of a pov from Est's perspective where through his eyes the party despises and abuses him. Basically the start of most stories in the genre. Then have an overheard conversation where Est thinks he's going to be banished because of his self esteem issues that are only in his head. He runs away first and then we don't see him again for a while. Maybe some quick asides of him being bitter and thinking himself into his villain arc. Then you have Athena be the MC and her journey is realizing just how much she used Est as a crutch and the "you don't realize what you have until it's gone" trope. The party cohesion falls apart without Est and it's Athena's job to bring them back together and be a leader. Everyone is who they are on the box, Dale is a drunkard wallowing in grief, Mirialia is the aloof loner, and Frey is the headstrong punch all the problems loose canon.

 

[asherdales]

2 - lack of communication
People keep pointing out Daru and Est misunderstanding, I argue they're wrong, it's not just a misunderstanding because Daru understands what happened, author simply choose to not have him talk with Est because... Reasons.

Really the reason is to make Est look childish and unreasonable. Certainly you could still do the thing where Dale doesn't talk with Est because he thinks Est won't listen/believe him. Keeping Athena in the dark about it is the manipulative thing. The story would be better if Dale was the bad guy manipulating everyone into relying on him and portraying Est and the bad guy. Instead we get Dale portrayed as the virtuous beacon of morality because he's a self insert for the author.

 

[T-sama]

Really the reason is to make Est look childish and unreasonable. Certainly you could still do the thing where Dale doesn't talk with Est because he thinks Est won't listen/believe him. Keeping Athena in the dark about it is the manipulative thing.

Yeah, as much as I defend the story for not being as bad as some say, I have to admit that scene was indeed made to make Est look childish and unreasonable, with Dale being the patronizing adult, which of course has the completely opposite effect lol, plotwise it's obvious he didn't keep quiet to manipulate Athena, but not talking to Est is already really bad, not telling Athena either is just plain moronic, if it wasn't for the fact that we know they're supposed to be the good guys it would be impossible to not say it's intended manipulation just to create a rift between Est and Athena.

The story would be better if Dale was the bad guy manipulating everyone into relying on him and portraying Est and the bad guy. Instead we get Dale portrayed as the virtuous beacon of morality because he's a self insert for the author.

For real, it plays straight so many things of the genre that you even wonder why bother to try Dale as a good guy, everyone else being clueless is forgivable, but Dale? Might as well have made him evil.

A lot of how Dale is supposed good end up sounding like shilling lol, because he's supposed to be such a great guy who looks out for everyone but only make stupid choices.

And let's not forget the art and character design too, dear god do Dale have a punchable face.

I guess as a whole what really annoys me is the wasted potential, since stories like this are ultra rare, although on the other hand I guess it do show why they're rare, too easy to screw up and make everyone unsympathetic as fuck

 

[PandoraHeaven]

Really the reason is to make Est look childish and unreasonable. Certainly you could still do the thing where Dale doesn't talk with Est because he thinks Est won't listen/believe him. Keeping Athena in the dark about it is the manipulative thing. The story would be better if Dale was the bad guy manipulating everyone into relying on him and portraying Est and the bad guy. Instead we get Dale portrayed as the virtuous beacon of morality because he's a self insert for the author.

Yes, someone have the same mind as me. The author making dale has the purest heart, big mind, overpower. And yet he making the most stupidest decision he can take. He doing the most evil thing (broken the childhood friend relationship and then making the FL dependent on him) "unintetionally" is the worst thing this author can make.

 

[gadnihasj]

Everything would come together perfectly if it turns out that Daru became the weakest link in his old party, but the girl he liked refused to kick him out. And then all but himself died because of that.

It's fun though, to see everybody thinking the people in this party should be vile characters just because of one single decision that they made. Real people are generally mostly good, and make vile decisions occasionally. And society is way too forgiving of much viler actions than telling a weak guy he can't follow to be killed by strong monsters.

But then again, we like fiction because it's so black and white between good and evil. It's not surprising that most readers would hate to see the occasional villains painted as otherwise good people.

 

[T-sama]

It's fun though, to see everybody thinking the people in this party should be vile characters just because of one single decision that they made. Real people are generally mostly good, and make vile decisions occasionally. And society is way too forgiving of much viler actions than telling a weak guy he can't follow to be killed by strong monsters.

In my case at least I just feel it would be more interesting if they were evil, or at least Dale was, because otherwise this is just another poorly written series where nobody ever communicates, multiple times do some really stupid decisions, and yet we're still supposed to sympathize with them.

I guess part of the reason is because if the characters are actually outright evil, it might still be fun to read because either eventually karma will fuck up with them, or because it's amusing to actually see a evil character screwing up with people and being total assholes, hell that's pretty much the reason why some series are popular.

Instead they're supposed decent people, all good friends, including to Est really, which is supposedly part of the reason which made them kicked him out, but all the stupid misunderstandings, lack of communication, and multiple times doing stupid choices in general, end up overshadowring any good quality, it becomes grating to see them fucking up so many times, in no small part due to said lack of communication, everything would have been different if they had a honest talk and explained themselves.

I guess the forced drama just kills any enjoyement and positive traits the series could have, it's so easily to see things from a negative angle that it makes you wish they actually did a lot of their choices out of malice, because at least then yeah, they really chose do be dicks, instead they simply don't talk about it because... Reasons.

A purposely evil character can be fun to hate, these supposed good characters make so many stupid choices and don't talk when they should that it makes you hate them for their sheer stupidity.

Does what I say make any sense?

 

[Rafalga]

Everything would come together perfectly if it turns out that Daru became the weakest link in his old party, but the girl he liked refused to kick him out. And then all but himself died because of that.

It's fun though, to see everybody thinking the people in this party should be vile characters just because of one single decision that they made. Real people are generally mostly good, and make vile decisions occasionally. And society is way too forgiving of much viler actions than telling a weak guy he can't follow to be killed by strong monsters.

But then again, we like fiction because it's so black and white between good and evil. It's not surprising that most readers would hate to see the occasional villains painted as otherwise good people.

This story has no nuance. I'm repeating myself at this point but people hate the characters because they are plain old hypocrites while author tries his hardest to sell them as not. It's not only about Est getting kicked. It is just bad writing and nothing to do with the readers inability to appriciate good written bad characters. There are plenty of highly loved, straight up evil but very nuanced antagonists in mangaverse.

 

[gadnihasj]

Does what I say make any sense?

Makes a lot of sense. But you're still working within the frame of black and white / good vs evil. As well as all-knowing reader. I really like seeing these characters who are occasionally stupid, just like normal people. Divorce rates are high exactly because most people are rather similar to these characters. And that's probably also why most readers hate the characters. One could easily find the same level of drama in one's own neighbourhood. Or any school.

This story has no nuance. I'm repeating myself at this point but people hate the characters because they are plain old hypocrites while author tries his hardest to sell them as not. It's not only about Est gets kicked. It is just bad writing and nothing to do with the readers inability to appriciate good written bad characters. There are plenty of highly loved, straight up evil but very nuanced antagonists in mangaverse.

I'll agree on the writing being less good. Still not on the level of bad shoujo though. But I must say I do enjoy seeing good characters who did something villainous. Hipocrites like most humans are. Nuanced antagonist is easier to find in fiction. The party probably did it for the expelled guy's own good as well, which is exactly how people end up as enemies due to someonecs good intentions.

 

[rocksilver]

Instead they're supposed decent people, all good friends, including to Est really, which is supposedly part of the reason which made them kicked him out, but all the stupid misunderstandings, lack of communication, and multiple times doing stupid choices in general, end up overshadowring any good quality, it becomes grating to see them fucking up so many times, in no small part due to said lack of communication, everything would have been different if they had a honest talk and explained themselves.

That is what annoys me. The party themselves refused to seek amends with Est after their first and continuous screw ups and instead of at least trying to talk to Est about his role (which he has every right to refuse to talk to them at that point), they bring in the blood knight and try to cohesion that way. Hell, even this chapter itself featured young Est and Athena which had cocky Daru being what he suddenly had now if he didn't drink all the time. Athena thinks of Est as part of her cherished memories and she couldn't even try to talk to Est after their fuck up? What a friend she was...

 

[rocksilver]

Marty Stu is apparently the term for a male Mary Sue.

Kinda agree about it being annoying knowing we're just building up to the overpowered rescue. Although it would be fun if he also proves to be no more capable against a demon and they have to take fleeing with their charred lives as the best they could do.

It would be impressive if they make Daru unable to hold his own against the demon... i guess the author now has at least two choices, either they make Daru unable to fight and defend (because he can´t loose) and then Est will help him with one of those... or Est will arrive when Daru already has defeated the demon and just watches or heals the ones that are wounded and is really awkward

Spoiler: Look out! Its a spoiler!

Pay attention to the bracelet in the next few chapters... its so bad how obvious it is.

 

[asherdales]

Athena thinks of Est as part of her cherished memories and she couldn't even try to talk to Est after their fuck up? What a friend she was...

You can't have Athena and Est resolve their differences because how else will Dale be the hero of some one else's story!? /s

 

[T-sama]

Makes a lot of sense. But you're still working within the frame of black and white / good vs evil. As well as all-knowing reader. I really like seeing these characters who are occasionally stupid, just like normal people. Divorce rates are high exactly because most people are rather similar to these characters. And that's probably also why most readers hate the characters. One could easily find the same level of drama in one's own neighbourhood. Or any school.

Problem is that most mangas work by that frame, they don't exactly try to actually have nuance, and when they do half the time they fail miserably just like this manga is doing, most japanese consumers want easy escapism, so you shouldn't really expect nuances and rounded characters from most mangas.

That is what annoys me. The party themselves refused to seek amends with Est after their first and continuous screw ups and instead of at least trying to talk to Est about his role (which he has every right to refuse to talk to them at that point), they bring in the blood knight and try to cohesion that way. Hell, even this chapter itself featured young Est and Athena which had cocky Daru being what he suddenly had now if he didn't drink all the time. Athena thinks of Est as part of her cherished memories and she couldn't even try to talk to Est after their fuck up? What a friend she was...

Unfortunately most authors love to abuse lack of communication for easy drama, because otherwise most of the story wouldn't exist if they had a simple talk lol,

 

[OSAITUS]

t's fun though, to see everybody thinking the people in this party should be vile characters just because of one single decision that they made. Real people are generally mostly good, and make vile decisions occasionally. And society is way too forgiving of much viler actions than telling a weak guy he can't follow to be killed by strong monsters.

They are not bad (maybe Daru is a conniving bastard but that is just in my head) but they are just so amazingly stupid, is not just one bad decision is a really stupid decision and the lack of hindsight to realize that was a bad decision to begin with.

Canonical proof of how stupid they are is the success of Est, sure he has the power, but at the moment he had nothing else, they kick him out of his house, with a bit of money and a bit of equipment... sure OP power gets a lot, but it does not help with management, we then see him with new equipment, new reputation in the guild, probably a place to stay and that is good... but then he gets 2 party members that are supposed to be weaker than him... and he does not fall, the party is still good, good enough that the new party members are happy with him.

Athena's party with Daru, an experienced adventurer (sure he was a deadbeat when Est was in the party, but when Est is gone he started to get good again), the elf girl that can handle powerful magic and a dragon girl that is supposed to be pretty strong... and they struggle, they can´t get back up, sure, is because they have problems with team mechanics, but still they are unable to show something for it and the team mechanics is just for the dragon girl.

Is Athena that much of a weakling without Est buffs?... then change her and make Est buff the dragon girl.

Is the elf girl too lazy to show her real power... then kick her and have Est buff Daru and Athena making a more melee based team.

Is Daru a deadbeat that only fights enough to get alcohol... then kick him out and get the dragon girl, have her buffed by Est and use her as a front line, Athena in the middle as a combat support while the elf and Est are in the rear providing buff and range attacks

 

[OSAITUS]

Pay attention to the bracelet in the next few chapters... its so bad how obvious it is.

In any other story i would dread something awful... but here i am elated... now i know why people hate watch things, is like a drug... i´ll stop once i´m healthy again, meanwhile... i´ll continue to waste time writing these things... they double as English lessons though, so not all the time is wasted.

Edit: saw the next chapter... guessing they took the same time to draw Daru completely than to draw that bracelet, even if you did not told me about it, it would have been far to much to not notice

 

[Puck2]

It's fun though, to see everybody thinking the people in this party should be vile characters just because of one single decision that they made.

The thing is that because of the author's bad writing it's not just one decision (as T-sama mentioned).

• Daru and Miralia hide their powers to the point That they risk Est death
• They/Athena kick Est out because of friendship but don't care what happens to him afterwards (if you want to know how it's done read "The Impregnable Demon King's Castle and the Expelled Black Mage of the Hero's Party")
• after the misunderstanding Daru waits until Est's and Athena's relationship is destroyed for good until he clears up the misunderstanding
• only after Est's banishment Daru and Miralia start to reveal at least part of their power
• not one of his "friends" even considers to invite Est back into the party after he became powerful (should have been pretty easy if the reconciliation talk would have happened a lot earlier)
• Athena gives Daru loving glances for some nice words although it was Est who supported her all her life

And that's not even every stupid decision. The whole manga is an accumulation of stupid decisions. I think the number of evil/stupid decisions would qualify them either as evil or extremely stupid in every other manga (reader's point of view).
Of course they are not purely evil/stupid, I think the least villains are (many get a flashback before their end where you can see the moment where their lives took a wrong turn) but if you look at their actions they act like every other banishing party just that they/the author tries to justify their actions with some shallow excuses.
I know that there are many hypocrites in real life but these are not the people you want to read about.