Ueno-san wa Bukiyou - Vol. 1 Ch. 1 - Rokka-kun

[Exile]

It seems certain people are pushing for a agenda.

MD at its core hosts images, you can upload images as long they follow the guidelines and that should be the end of it.
MD also allows groups to set delays on when the images go up to public viewing, the whole argument about this (and its not about the chapter, if I was a mod you can be damn sure this all been deleted as off topic but hey) is about a page that seems to be gone now.

In the end it goes like this, as far I am aware MD will not host chapters from groups that dont want their work hosted in MD and this should be the end of it, the whole "we are a community" is basically a load of crap because 4Chan is a community and Reddit is a community and MD is also a community, 4Chan have contributed as Reddit also have contributed but here is the thing ... neither hosts chapters or provides the same services as MD and all communities have their ups and downs, 4Chan have their anonymity that is both a good and bad thing as Reddit just have the passive-aggressive downvote that is rarely used for its intended purpose (I certainly dont) and if you dont like it here without the power to hive-mind silence dissenting opinions then go back to Reddit, as bad 4Chan is at least I can say 5Toubun no Hanayome is waifu bait garbage as if I tried that on Reddit I am fully aware of what would happen in certain subreddits ... and for that matter I can say that here in 5Toubun no Hanayome comments as well.

"Community" is starting to sound a lot like "Proletarian" Comrade and a excuse to add censorship, that I will not tolerate.

 

[Acolytus]

I have rewritten this post a million times trying to not sound like a cunt who acts smug while talking about stuff that already happened, but I assumed that as soon as people understood that the main purpose of MD was to give the scanlators as much freedom as possible, they would also understand that that meant that some of them would feel free to act like dicks even if there were rules in place to punish outright offensive and hostile behavior. Apparently, I was wrong.

I defended the people who wanted to ask for donations in the comment section that apparently caused this whole mess based on the belief that scanlators should be free to do stuff like that, just as in the past I have argued against anti-sniping policies because I also believe that scanlators must be allowed to translate whatever the fuck they want, and for that very same reason I consider these demands for higher moderation and for the staff to adopt a more authoritative attitude to be non-sensical, since they too go against those same beliefs.

That's the price of freedom, you can either accept it and move on or just leave, because you won't ever find the golden middle ground of perfect balance between freedom and order that you might believe to exist, mostly because everyone else has their own definition of that "middle ground" and they probably won't like yours.

 

[Daktyl]

@Acolytus
I'm seeing your argument a lot in response to this situation. I'd like to point out for any future readers that sniping is fine, and while sniping is annoying for groups that wasn't was lit the fuse on this bomb. The problem was that there was a credit page in the sniped chapter that had words on it that violated rules MangaDex already has and the mods refused to enforce those rules. That's why the group left. Nobody is asking MangaDex to write new rules against sniping, just to enforce the rules against derogatory remarks they already have.

 

[BCS]

So about that world hunger...

 

[TheOneWhoSighs]

@Acolytus

That's the price of freedom, you can either accept it and move on or just leave, because you won't ever find the golden middle ground of perfect balance between freedom and order that you might believe to exist, mostly because everyone else has their own definition of that "middle ground" and they probably won't like yours.

That's fine. But then don't try to claim you're not a rough equivalent to the chans.

Because you are. That's why my post is saying there are clearly conflicting goals here. 4chan has about the same amount of moderation as here, if not even more. Don't believe me, go read the global rules and the individual board rules. Particularly global rule 3 & 8.

You cannot say you don't want heavy handed moderation, while simultaneously saying you don't want this to be like the chans. Those are conflicting positions.

 

[Teasday]

_{@Daktyl posted:}

teaseday

oh behave

_{@Daktyl posted:}

I want to like MangaDex so bad, because it's a good website to read manga, but it's not a very scanlator-friendly website as it stands.

I don't know what else to say to this except I think being scanlator-friendly means not simply trying to be as friendly as possible, but also as unfriendly as it's possible to avoid being, and that applies to all scanlators, not only the ones who feel they're being wronged by the second party. Throwing one under the bus to save the face of another is not scanlator-friendly.

But yeah, as @Acolytus mentioned just now, it seems to me this boils down to basically how much policing do you want us to do. If we bend over backwards to every whim scanlators would throw at us, it's eventually going to reflect on the readers starting to dislike us for taking down and messing with every little thing and ruling with an iron fist, and if we lose the audience we lose the scanlators. Obviously we want to keep the scanlators as happy as we can without it getting to that point, so that leads to the readers having to deal with the occasional manga ghost towns. I don't know how else to describe it as other than a balancing act. So far we seem to be fairly stable with it, although people unfortunately occasionally drop off from both ends. Seems inevitable that some people aren't going to be happy with whatever balance we strike.

 

[Acolytus]

@Daktyl I'm aware of that, as I criticized that same anti-donations credit page back then, and I understand that's the cause of the issue. Regarding the breaking of the rules, said rules are pretty open to interpretation and this is indeed a case where it was up to the staff to decide if they were being violate, since the actual attack was more implicit than explicit. I don't really agree with their decision on this matter but I don't think that means they should moderate this stuff more harshly. That said, now that they have set a precedent I fully expect them to folllow it should something like this happen again, since the very bit of order necessary for this place to at least function requires them to not go against their own words.

@TheOneWhoSighs There is a pretty huge difference between 4chan and this place. 4chan has a lot of rules, yes, but most of them are rarely enforced and the most popular boards are filled with all manners of shitposting. That, too, is the price of freedom, specially since 4chan offers even more freedom than MangaDex.

I always assumed what the meant by "not being 4chan" was avoiding the rampant use of racial slurs, direct attacks, off-topic lunacy and all the other crap that makes 4chan a pretty chaotic place (even if I prefer a million times to other heavily regulated "forums" like Reddit).

Even if I disagree with the credit page that started all this chaos and think it would have been better if it was never included at all, it's still pretty tame as far as attacks go and nowhere near to the kind of stuff you would see in 4chan.

Like I said, I don't think this is an issue that requires higher moderation but rather a clear understanding by everyone of what is and isn't allowed. MangaDex is still developing as a site and the rules obviously will change as situations such as this one arise, what's is important is that any precedent set before is respected and, of course, that they always follow the same line of reasoning. As long as the staff makes decisions based on the desire for greater freedom that they defend, I can put up with controversial stuff like this, and should a day come when they go against that on a whim, I'll be the first one to call them out and probably get banned after insulting someone's mom.

 

[Exile]

Let me point this out.

If there is a page with text its a question of whats allowed on the text and whats not, clearly some things would be illegal for various reasons and not allowed but if a page have text asking for donations and its allowed then why should a page saying "donations should not be required" be removed?

This is making MD taking a stand on donations, people have different ideas and in scanalization there are lines that been draw with groups that drop series the moment they are licensed and others that dont, looking at the "offending" page I see a broad stand over donations, its not pointing fingers and if someone is upset about it then simply put how much it costs then because I am aware some groups payed for raws as well paying the translator ... I am not exactly blind over how things work out behind the curtain. But its still forcing MD to make a stand over what is permitted on the credit page to say "credit pages should not say anything against donations" and as some groups are for donations (including having oh, Patreon pages as well taking commissions) other fell strong about the subject and so its tolerating monetization (because even even if the group doesnt make money, someone does) and censor arguments against the practice.

Its not by taking your ball home that anyone changes anything, its just a attempt of applying pressure to MD so they start censor opinions they dont like ... unless MD does start applying a rule that credit pages should be just that, only staff credit and translation notes to be fair.

Would people like that instead? no asking for donations, no arguments against donations? would groups like that?

 

[TheOneWhoSighs]

@acolytus

There is a pretty huge difference between 4chan and this place. 4chan has a lot of rules, yes, but most of them are rarely enforced and the most popular boards are filled with all manners of shitposting.

I mean, it's a site basically built for shitposting. The existence of shitposting doesn't mean the rules aren't being enforced. The rules are actually enforced quite heavily.

I always assumed what the meant by "not being 4chan" was avoiding the rampant use of racial slurs, direct attacks, off-topic lunacy and all the other crap that makes 4chan a pretty chaotic place (even if I prefer a million times to other heavily regulated "forums" like Reddit).

Outside of a couple of boards, 4chan is a banning spree. 😆

@Exile

If there is a page with text its a question of whats allowed on the text and whats not, clearly some things would be illegal for various reasons and not allowed but if a page have text asking for donations and its allowed then why should a page saying "donations should not be required" be removed?

It's been said to death at this point. But it's one thing to say you disagree with donations. It's another to imply a group is scamming because they take donations.

And don't try to take the "it was a general statement defense". It was quite blatantly targeted.

 

[kuma]

why some scanlators expecting MD to policy other scanlator for your behalf?

 

[DaiChimpo]

Reading through this simultaneously makes me wish I joined MD earlier to help with this amazing-sounding mod team, and not envious of having to be in the staff's position. There is no winning scenario and no satisfactory compromise here. MD staff has upheld their interpretation of the established rules to a reasonable extent, and the clash of laws comes from the difference interpretations of what constitutes harassment and if the credit page counts.
Im gonna go look to see if there's a janitor application forum cuz this moderation team sounds leagues better than any I've worked with.

 

[Zephyrus]

@Daktyl
Fair point. This thread has generated a lot of internal discussion. Expect some forthcoming information that will either clarify our position on certain things...or not, I suppose.

 

[Bainhardt]

In the aftermath of this incident, I have had some communication with certain members of staff, and I explained to them what my complaints/grievances are, and why I chose to do what I did. For transparency's sake, I'm posting my message to the mod unedited here, so that anyone entering this thread will know where I stood and so that there will be no misconceptions. I have also apologized to the mods for some of the things I said throughout which were contentious, judgmental, and unhelpful.

Full content of the message:

Spoiler

Hello again. Thanks again for taking the time to answer all of my questions. I respect that a lot, especially given that your position and duties do not pertain to public relations.
Everything you've said is consistent and I understand very well now how deeply difficult it is, with the sheer amount of content on this site, to attempt to regulate things with the same standards across the board. To be honest, I'm not sure I have much else to ask about.

If I had to say one last thing (maybe for my own sake more than anything else), I would just like to explain with no room for ambiguity why I did what I did and what my reasons were. With all the trouble you've gone to to explain your feelings on these matters, it seemed the right thing to do for me to reciprocate.

MangaDex is a platform, whether or not you guys wish for it to be or choose to acknowledge it as such. It is astonishingly easy to get content in front of an audience here. This website isn't like Youtube or Twitter, where an individual has to work to build their own audience; the manga do that for us. Any user can upload content to any manga on here (and I actually like that part, and don't wish for it to be changed. I'm only bringing it up because it's an important detail). It's not difficult, then, to get something seen by maybe 5 thousand, 10 thousand, or 20 thousand people. If you factor in how drama spreads, you could maybe even skew those numbers higher.

Scanlated manga does not deserve to be treated as somebody's personal soapbox or megaphone. There are nearly infinite platforms on the internet for people to discuss their opinions, but attached to the hard work of somebody else (that we're kind of stealing to begin with) is not the right place. Unfortunately, deciding what does or does not constitute such soapboxing is littered with gray areas; you could have examples up to or exceeding Facepalm's callout, or you could hone in as narrow as the fact that one of my own credits pages (Ueno ch 17) recommends the readers go follow a twitter where they post photos and videos of cute japanese seals. It's not impossible to draw the line somewhere within these gray areas, but the decisions about how it should be done are not easy in the slightest. I admit that myself.

I did what I did believing that it was wrong. The decision to use Ueno-san for this purpose was to demonstrate why it is wrong. Anyone who was frustrated or disappointed in me for my actions should now understand on some level that they, themselves, feel that soapboxing using manga is wrong, and that they do care about that. Raising awareness of this was the purpose of my demonstration.

The only thing left to say is that, in the current state of things, there is nothing stopping me from doing this again, because I acted entirely within the rules. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing this again, on any manga out there. I could choose to upload all of my future chapters with the exact same credits page at the beginning. But I don't want to do that, because this time was enough. The fact that I'm having this conversation with you is proof that it was enough, lol. So like I said before, you don't have to worry about any more trouble from me.

The two "credit page" images that prompted this, also here for posterity's sake and so there is no confusion what this was about:

Spoiler

 

[GondiTheCat]

Welp, I'm not sure what to say here, so I'll just stay silent, and go back to commenting on the translation (which was my original reason to go to this comment thread anyways 0_0).

I like having explanations for where the name came from, so nice! I'm learning something new today haha

 

[MoiSoi]

First off how does she know what pee tastes like lol and she only drank it for 100 yen??? Cheap $1.00 USD =104 yen btw.(EDIT: OH nvm its 109.77 yen)

 

[foolri7k]

this entire chapter but unironically is singapore. it honestly tastes like water

 

[BennyHawk7]

So uh... This comment thread is kinda crazy... I just wanna talk about how SHE FRICKIN GAVE HIM HER FRICKIN PEE TO DRINK. WHAT. THE. FU-

 

[spytf2]

JARATE? NOOOOOO

 

[Kingoftherabbits]

Bro what