Uglyhood
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@ninjadork What's wrong with wanting universal healthcare? Is healthcare too good for some people; if you're rich enough you get it and others should be left out? That's kinda disgusting thinking 😅
@Tabitha Well, if you're going to be an overly simple and particularly narcissistic idiot about a complex topic, I'll keep this short.
Giving your own money to charity is good. Robbing people at gunpoint, taking a cut of their money for yourself, scattering the remainder in the street, and telling your victims that they should be thankful for your generosity and the violence you inflicted on them is evil.
I have never yet met an advocate for "universal" healthcare who did not advocate for the evil model, either through laziness (an unwillingness to acknowledge the complexities of reality) or malice (a self-righteous conviction that your victims deserve to be robbed).
It is also worth mentioning that in every single historical instance where "universal" healthcare is implemented, it has uniformly conformed to one of two models that match up rather well with the above categorizations; either the nation in question had a series of geopolitical circumstances that allowed them to mooch off of someone else's generosity, or "universal healthcare" was nothing more than a fraudulent euphemism for "healthcare rationed according to the whims of the powerful", a la Charlie Grad.
Giving your own money to charity is good. Robbing people at gunpoint, taking a cut of their money for yourself, scattering the remainder in the street, and telling your victims that they should be thankful for your generosity and the violence you inflicted on them is evil.
I have never yet met an advocate for "universal" healthcare who did not advocate for the evil model, either through laziness (an unwillingness to acknowledge the complexities of reality) or malice (a self-righteous conviction that your victims deserve to be robbed).
It is also worth mentioning that in every single historical instance where "universal" healthcare is implemented, it has uniformly conformed to one of two models that match up rather well with the above categorizations; either the nation in question had a series of geopolitical circumstances that allowed them to mooch off of someone else's generosity, or "universal healthcare" was nothing more than a fraudulent euphemism for "healthcare rationed according to the whims of the powerful", a la Charlie Grad.
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@ninjadork I never said it wasn't complex.
However, I still don't see what's wrong about wanting everyone in the world to have at least the bare minimum of life necessities? Our planet has limited resources, so why should most of them gather to only few percents of the population? As a way of reaching this utopistic ideal a strict division between charity and violence is just silly, when humans have invented tax. In my country, we pay taxes just for this, and many other convenient things. I don't care if my salary is reduced a bit, when it's going to a good cause. There are too many political issues in the world that prevent universal healthcare from happening, and I don't know how to solve the problem, sorry. I also don't see how my views can be interpreted as narcissistic, but suit yourself.
//Edit: I just noticed we were talking about completely different things. A large portion of countries in the world, including mine, already have an universal healthcare system implemented. I took the word "universal" literally, and didn't realise it could also mean a local system, I apologise. I don't know even why we discussed about this, I feel like I've been talking to an alien. Which is quite funny, considering the story in this series
//Edit: I just noticed we were talking about completely different things. A large portion of countries in the world, including mine, already have an universal healthcare system implemented. I took the word "universal" literally, and didn't realise it could also mean a local system, I apologise. I don't know even why we discussed about this, I feel like I've been talking to an alien. Which is quite funny, considering the story in this series
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@ninjadork Rather than malicious, I was so alienated by your text that I didn't know whether to laugh or cry (thus my comment about talking to an alien).
I couldn't figure any single reason as to how you possibly could have ended thinking as you were, saying illogical things like universal healthcare is related to gunfights and its advocates must be evil, when there are several good, working models in the world which are neither evil nor the result of any gunfighting. At last, I came to the conclusion, that since your text's meaning was so indecipherable to me, that there are high chances of you living in the only developed country without universal healthcare, and as such being prejudiced against it, adamantly denying (despite all the evidence and research around the subject) the fact that it would reduce the overall costs of your country's healthcare and make healthcare truly accessible for everyone.
If you're going to again reply, that I'm a narsissistic idiot, and malicious, and maybe even speaking lies, then I must say, that we need world-wide free, quality education asap. I bet we wouldn't have Trump or antivaxxiners (and a seriously long list of other problems) existing if education was better. To achieve this, again there's a solution that might sound like "robbing" honest people to you - a boring one that I've mentioned before - a proper tax system.
If you're going to again reply, that I'm a narsissistic idiot, and malicious, and maybe even speaking lies, then I must say, that we need world-wide free, quality education asap. I bet we wouldn't have Trump or antivaxxiners (and a seriously long list of other problems) existing if education was better. To achieve this, again there's a solution that might sound like "robbing" honest people to you - a boring one that I've mentioned before - a proper tax system.
@Tabitha Let's start by answering some of your questions:
I call you narcissistic and malicious because that's how you speak; supremely self-centered and assuming that your extremist incomprehension means a dissenting viewpoint must be both factually and morally wrong.
Oh, and I like how you extend your moral/mental judgements to an entire country of people you've never met and (I would bet money) you've never even visited. IDK which country you think I live in, since I live in Norway, but regardless; stellar xenophobia you've got there.
Question: What happens if you don't pay your taxes? Answer: Government agents, with guns, will come to your house and arrest you for tax evasion. It doesn't matter which country you live in, that's how taxes work. Pay up, or you go to jail. And they shoot you if you resist arrest. The only thing differentiating taxes from any other form of gunpoint theft is "consent of the governed", and if you need that explained to you then you're woefully unprepared for any kind of discussion about public policy.
As for taking a cut, your taxes are never paid 1-for-1 to the services you want. The government takes a big chunk out of it before that money goes anywhere. In a government that functions properly, this chunk is comparatively small and is used for the minimum of maintenance needed to keep the services functioning. In a corrupt government, the chunk is much larger and is used for all kinds of frivolous and wasteful expenses, such as luxury plane flights for government agents.
More often than not, money portioned out to government services does not go to people who actually need it; it goes to whoever is best at gaming the system. The inner workings of these services are usually opaque to any outside observation, which means that there is no real accountability for how that money is partitioned. Combined with the above points, this is the basis for "scattering in the streets".
Over the years since the ACA was enacted, one American has been stripped of their insurance for each person who gained it. If they wanted an insurance plan to replace the one they lost, government regulations forced them to buy a more expensive plan, usually from government outlets. Universally, these plans included at least one, usually several bullshit conditions that were physically useless to the buyer; the most egregious example was how all males, even the unmarried ones, were forced to pay for a variety of female-only conditions like maternity care. A strong secondary contender was adults being forced to pay for dental and vision care for children even if they had no children. And to top it all off, anyone who refused to buy these new goverment mandated insurance plans, and was not a dependant on someone else's plan, was forced to pay an annual criminal fine (oh wait, the Supreme Court ruled it a "tax" - my mistake).
https://www.factcheck.org/2013/10/reality-confronts-obamas-false-promise/
And yet people, a great many of them just like you, bitch and moan and whine about how the plebians should be grateful for government thugs upending their lives, fucking their wallets, and stripping them of resources they need to survive. And you justify it by saying "Utopia is worth the sacrifice, so I'll break you if you don't do what I tell you to!" How excellently evil.
As for taking a cut, your taxes are never paid 1-for-1 to the services you want. The government takes a big chunk out of it before that money goes anywhere. In a government that functions properly, this chunk is comparatively small and is used for the minimum of maintenance needed to keep the services functioning. In a corrupt government, the chunk is much larger and is used for all kinds of frivolous and wasteful expenses, such as luxury plane flights for government agents.
More often than not, money portioned out to government services does not go to people who actually need it; it goes to whoever is best at gaming the system. The inner workings of these services are usually opaque to any outside observation, which means that there is no real accountability for how that money is partitioned. Combined with the above points, this is the basis for "scattering in the streets".
Over the years since the ACA was enacted, one American has been stripped of their insurance for each person who gained it. If they wanted an insurance plan to replace the one they lost, government regulations forced them to buy a more expensive plan, usually from government outlets. Universally, these plans included at least one, usually several bullshit conditions that were physically useless to the buyer; the most egregious example was how all males, even the unmarried ones, were forced to pay for a variety of female-only conditions like maternity care. A strong secondary contender was adults being forced to pay for dental and vision care for children even if they had no children. And to top it all off, anyone who refused to buy these new goverment mandated insurance plans, and was not a dependant on someone else's plan, was forced to pay an annual criminal fine (oh wait, the Supreme Court ruled it a "tax" - my mistake).
https://www.factcheck.org/2013/10/reality-confronts-obamas-false-promise/
And yet people, a great many of them just like you, bitch and moan and whine about how the plebians should be grateful for government thugs upending their lives, fucking their wallets, and stripping them of resources they need to survive. And you justify it by saying "Utopia is worth the sacrifice, so I'll break you if you don't do what I tell you to!" How excellently evil.
I call you narcissistic and malicious because that's how you speak; supremely self-centered and assuming that your extremist incomprehension means a dissenting viewpoint must be both factually and morally wrong.
Your very first comment was a blatant character attack against a random stranger you've never met and never spoken to before; you very explicitly said (though not verbatim) "If you are against universal healthcare, your mind (you use the term "thinking") is disgusting." So right off the bat, you demonstrate a zealous fanaticism that demands instant, comprehensive moral condemnation of people who disagree with you.
In your next comment, you keep going;
*"Our planet has limited resources, so why should most of them gather to only few percents of the population?" - whether you are capable of articulating it or not, this is a demonstration of your adherence to the Communist Theory of Zero-Sum Economics; not only are resources finite, but humanity is also incapable of meaningful improvement of these resources, either in amount or in efficiency of use. Taken in context with your other statements, you default to assuming that if someone is "rich", they must by definition be stealing that wealth from many other people.
*"As a way of reaching this utopistic ideal a strict division between charity and violence is just silly" - you consider violence and the destruction of others to be morally equivalent to charity (i.e., morally good) if it serves your purposes, and your only functional concern is who you classify as an appropriate target.
Your subsequent bullshit about world-wide education and lazy political segues sounds like a Stalin re-hash; if only you can gather up all the dissenters, you can strip them of wrongthink and make them support your cause.
In your next comment, you keep going;
*"Our planet has limited resources, so why should most of them gather to only few percents of the population?" - whether you are capable of articulating it or not, this is a demonstration of your adherence to the Communist Theory of Zero-Sum Economics; not only are resources finite, but humanity is also incapable of meaningful improvement of these resources, either in amount or in efficiency of use. Taken in context with your other statements, you default to assuming that if someone is "rich", they must by definition be stealing that wealth from many other people.
*"As a way of reaching this utopistic ideal a strict division between charity and violence is just silly" - you consider violence and the destruction of others to be morally equivalent to charity (i.e., morally good) if it serves your purposes, and your only functional concern is who you classify as an appropriate target.
Your subsequent bullshit about world-wide education and lazy political segues sounds like a Stalin re-hash; if only you can gather up all the dissenters, you can strip them of wrongthink and make them support your cause.
Oh, and I like how you extend your moral/mental judgements to an entire country of people you've never met and (I would bet money) you've never even visited. IDK which country you think I live in, since I live in Norway, but regardless; stellar xenophobia you've got there.
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@ninjadork First of all, thank you for properly trying to answer to me. Next I must apologise, since I lack the skills in English to properly answer you back.
We have such different worldviews that I believe any further discussion fruitless.
Also, sorry for all the innocent bypassers, I still think Uglyhood is a good series; Elsa is seriously badass character and I look forward to seeing where her story goes. My apologies for wasting so much comment space. I just learned the use of spoiler tags... *hides in a corner feeling extremely ashamed*
I know and have met many (in tens, but not in hundreds) intelligent, nice and friendly people from America, hundreds nice people from several other countries, as I have side job which has me socialising with and meeting people around the world. So no, it would be hard to consider me "xenophobic". Rather it was your way of thinking as an individual, that I was trying to understand and I'm sorry I came to an incorrect conclusion. However, you living in a country with good universal healthcare and splendid tax system only makes my disbelief grow.
Although by now it can't come to you as a surprise anymore, I disagree with your opinion on the insurance plan cases you mentioned, all of them. I'm not that familiar with American insurance system but when it comes to taxation, I believe it's correct to pay taxes for elderly care, childcare, education (higher as well), public healthcare, etc. all those things, you might not personally get to enjoy ever, but are good for the society, and so your gain is indirect. Healthy, educated citizens make for a prosperous and relatively safe country, and applied globally, maybe just a bit better world to live in.
To me, the taxation system is as good a tool as the government using it, to you it's evil robbing by government thugs (though I do not disagree, that this system comes with a varying level of corrupt, e.g. many wealthy companies find loopholes and escape taxes as much as they can, with help from government). Even if I refuse to pay taxes (of which I have no easy way of doing in the first place), and refuse to leave my house, no one will shoot me, because the police doesn't have permission to.
"And you justify it by saying "Utopia is worth the sacrifice, so I'll break you if you don't do what I tell you to!" How excellently evil." -> I never said this, I don't have the power to break you to my will, nor would I use it even if I had, because that is evil. Utopia is utopia for a reason, and dreaming about it is not a crime.
"Taken in context with your other statements, you default to assuming that if someone is "rich", they must by definition be stealing that wealth from many other people."-> To an extent yes and no. I suspect generally more moderate differences in income are a sign of balanced economy and result in humane conditions for everyone, and on the other hand as seen in world history, too extreme income gaps result in stark inequality, which in turn provokes revolt and revolution. What is considered moderate, is definitely up to debate. It isn't that I mind people being rich, the problem is there are too many people forced to live in inhumane conditions, and distribution of earth's wealth and resouces could be much more just than it is today.
Finally, it is true, that my first comment didn't have much tact. However, I still believe that such thinking as I mentioned there is disgusting, not that the person doing this is disgusting, those are different things as humans are very complex beings, to judge them from one perspective only is shallow. Since then, you have demeaned and insulted me in every reply, which I think is quite hypocritical of you.
Although by now it can't come to you as a surprise anymore, I disagree with your opinion on the insurance plan cases you mentioned, all of them. I'm not that familiar with American insurance system but when it comes to taxation, I believe it's correct to pay taxes for elderly care, childcare, education (higher as well), public healthcare, etc. all those things, you might not personally get to enjoy ever, but are good for the society, and so your gain is indirect. Healthy, educated citizens make for a prosperous and relatively safe country, and applied globally, maybe just a bit better world to live in.
To me, the taxation system is as good a tool as the government using it, to you it's evil robbing by government thugs (though I do not disagree, that this system comes with a varying level of corrupt, e.g. many wealthy companies find loopholes and escape taxes as much as they can, with help from government). Even if I refuse to pay taxes (of which I have no easy way of doing in the first place), and refuse to leave my house, no one will shoot me, because the police doesn't have permission to.
"And you justify it by saying "Utopia is worth the sacrifice, so I'll break you if you don't do what I tell you to!" How excellently evil." -> I never said this, I don't have the power to break you to my will, nor would I use it even if I had, because that is evil. Utopia is utopia for a reason, and dreaming about it is not a crime.
"Taken in context with your other statements, you default to assuming that if someone is "rich", they must by definition be stealing that wealth from many other people."-> To an extent yes and no. I suspect generally more moderate differences in income are a sign of balanced economy and result in humane conditions for everyone, and on the other hand as seen in world history, too extreme income gaps result in stark inequality, which in turn provokes revolt and revolution. What is considered moderate, is definitely up to debate. It isn't that I mind people being rich, the problem is there are too many people forced to live in inhumane conditions, and distribution of earth's wealth and resouces could be much more just than it is today.
Finally, it is true, that my first comment didn't have much tact. However, I still believe that such thinking as I mentioned there is disgusting, not that the person doing this is disgusting, those are different things as humans are very complex beings, to judge them from one perspective only is shallow. Since then, you have demeaned and insulted me in every reply, which I think is quite hypocritical of you.
Also, sorry for all the innocent bypassers, I still think Uglyhood is a good series; Elsa is seriously badass character and I look forward to seeing where her story goes. My apologies for wasting so much comment space. I just learned the use of spoiler tags... *hides in a corner feeling extremely ashamed*
@Tabitha If I judged you wrongly, I apologize. But on discussions of public policy I always do a double evaluation of what people say; the actual words that come out of their mouth, and what those opinions will look like upon real-world implementation. I am not convinced that anything you say you want would differentiate from my characterizations of them in that case.
I will admit to some over-reaction, and I apologize for that. I have American family and they've been screwed hard by pre-2017 regulations and policies.
I will admit to some over-reaction, and I apologize for that. I have American family and they've been screwed hard by pre-2017 regulations and policies.
I wanted to comment about how the disclaimer at the first chapter was bullshit and how the comic actually represented reality so well it hurts, but somehow the comment section actually devolved into political banter.
I don't even want to try and figure out who is trolling / feeding / a retard / a SJW.
I don't even want to try and figure out who is trolling / feeding / a retard / a SJW.
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not my cup of tea but its quite fun to read
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Wish this was more popular. This is good shit right here.
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@rokegle135 I did not, no. I added it to my increasingly growing backlog of 'plan to read' manga, lol.
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Thank you so much for picking this up ZTS
