Vinland Saga - Vol. 23 Ch. 163 - Sig and Hatt

[RexNemorensis]

That is one hard name to pronounce. Like... damn.

 

[truepurple]

Various aspects of this chapter confuse me.
Page 9 "technically I'm his second wife"

Didn't Gudrid run away before they could force her into a ceremony and unilaterally declare a marriage between them? So Hatt his is only wife, not even "technically" a second wife.

Ok so let's say for a moment that these fools consider Gudrid and Sig marriage. She said second wife, meaning she was married to him after Gudrid ran way? Like in a rush before he chased after Gudrid or something? I don't remember that. Did they make some hasty proclamation about them being married and then run off after gudrid?

And if Hatt was married to Sig before all this,(and thus his first wife) what was the big deal about Gudrid running away anyway? Even if you're fine with one sided polygamy, he still had a wife, so it's not really worth chasing after a second wife that was so uninterested that she attacked him and fled by boat for a super long journey to a new land. He already had a woman to bear his children and clean his house. And if he (or on the insistence of his father) must have a second wife, just find someone else. With all this time chasing they could have found some other woman to marry to Sig.

And why was Hatt so mad at Sig about talking about letting Gudrid go, that Gudrid wanted to go? I mean she either married him and than resigned herself to him getting a second wife or married him based on the premise he was already married and chasing after said wife. Either way, she was on some level accepting sharing him with another woman. Yet on hearing how much Gudrid didn't want to marry her man, how Sig realized he didn't want to be married to Gudrid, and that Sig was jealous of her freedom, Hatt acts insanely jealous? of Gudrid, and not for the freedom I think. Like talking about Gudrid wanting freedom and them not wanting each other, was almost like Sig was talking about cheating on Hatt. What?!?

 

[LordFifthIsLife]

It seems that the only way for a childhood friend to succeed is to be the living embodiment of Asura

 

[raos044]

@truepurple I think they're implying she's more like his mistress while Gudrid was supposed to be the legal wife for political purposes? Seemed like she was added just to make Sig have a lover so her introduction is a bit confusing.

 

[supermoonchrome]

sigurd is rewarded with a better girl

 

[truepurple]

@ LordFifthIsLife This Asura? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura Please explain your reference.

@ supermoonchrome Not a better girl, a better girl for him. Gudrid is great.

 

[Amplify]

@truepurple

Not a better girl, a better girl for him. Gudrid is great.

I think you might want to get your eyesight checked out, because you must be fucking blind.

 

[Tyizor]

Is this a motherfucking jojo reference?

 

[truepurple]

@Amplify What, you haven't read this comic? Why are you commenting on it then?

 

[Bana]

@truepurple
the marriage is still on because they want ties to lief's family, hatt is just a mistress because she's not important politically. hatt is jealous because sig is talking about gudrid in a very romantic sense, a bit of longing and admiration would easily be mistaken as love, which is more than the cool casual attitude sig gives to hatt

 

[truepurple]

@Bana
So you're saying they aren't actually considered married despite multiple occasions of her being called wife? Like, she's like a wife even if she isn't technically? She's no mistress anyway. Even if they considered Sig and Gudrid married, which seems to be a stupid take considering she ran away before the ritual against her will could take place. He's been at sea etc. chasing after Gudrid, so he couldn't have been having sex with Hatt during this time. Mistress is defined by the person a married (or at least in a romantic relationship) person is cheating with.


I really do get what your saying and it makes sense to a degree. But Hatt would have had to blithely ignored all context.
First, my biggest point was untouched.
That if she was already interested and accepting of becoming a second wife or whatever, if she can take sharing him with another woman in a actual sexual relationship in the same house, then it makes no sense for her to get insanely jealous over casual mention with no direct romantic overtones during an explanation she asked for. These two things do not fit at all. I mean imagine if she were a second wife and the three of them were living in a house with Sig both having sex with him. How could Hatt possibly survive with that insane level of jealousy?

But to the context. Sig specifically says he realizes he doesn't even want Gudrid. He respects and is jealous of her desire for freedom. I mean he could have easily said the same thing about a male character and we wouldn't be going 'Is Sig homosexual?' And he specifically left Gudrid with her traveling across a ocean, he is never going to see her again, it's almost physically impossible now without great effort. So it's not like Hatt has reason to worry about Sig cheating on her with Gudrid in the future. And Sigs explanation only confirms Hatt has nothing to worry about, it should be something she'd want to hear. rather than her essentially demanding he shut up about it. It's all very preposterous IMO.

 

[Bana]

@truepurple
i don't want to belittle the effort you put into all this, but this situation is a comedy; it isn't supposed to be sensible.

there is an agreement that she will eventually be married to sig, but she is less important than creating ties to lief. remember that sig left immediately after his wedding to gudrid, so he isn't married to hatt, not yet at least. and we know that the relationship has been going on even since haalfdan arranged the marriage. in my view, continuing such a relationship when you're already betrothed counts as the definition of mistress.

as for hatt's jealousy, it's a combination of things. just as haalfdan's emotions have become powerful over the many years of absence, so has hatt's. her love left everything behind to chase after a low quality woman for years, risking death in the process. hatt was sure of her superiority over gudrid before the wedding because she had been honing her skills as a wife and all of it was thrown away for gudrid. and now she hears that sig has returned and given up on gudrid. great news! he is alive and gudrid is gone. except, gidrid has left a mark on him. he changed because of her, and he recalls her memory with the wistfulness of an admirer. it is that profound mark upon him that hatt cannot stand. because her love for him had not changed him in the slightest.

 

[truepurple]

@Bana While it has comedic elements, this comic is not a comedy. It is not in the practice of suspending story for comedy and has lots of serious moments. And I don't think it's fair to call the situation comedic either, I mean I'm sure some of it's meant to be funny, just like humors sprinkled everywhere. Take for example the conversation of the guys waiting to be beheaded. That doesn't mean the situation wasn't real, and "sensible" AKA logical =realistic-ish.

Hatt was no mistress. But I'd rather not argue the semantics any further.

after a low quality woman

What the hell, you too? How is Gurdrid a "low quality woman"?

 

[Bana]

@truepurple
it seemed to me that something "preposterous" and something comedic were somehow mutually exclusive due to the way you seemed annoyed by how hatt reacted to sig's reason for his change of heart. that's why i mentioned it. it seemed like you wanted her to be more sensible rather than passionate and over emotional

if you don't like arguing semantics, don't bring it up next time.

as for my judgement on gudrid's quality as a woman, i am taking the understanding of the characters into consideration and as basis for my opinion. in this setting there is an ideal of "woman". if you honestly think that gudrid or anyone thinks she is an ideal woman, you are delusional. it was established in the introduction of gudrid that she can't be depended on to do what women are expected to do. that chapter was quite a while ago, so i can understand if you forgot her origin. she may be a courageous friend, a strong and eager pupil, and a fearless explorer, but as a woman she is lacking. or, maybe there is something i missed that would make her a better wife than hattgerd?

 

[truepurple]

I think Gudrid could give birth to children just as well as the next woman, probably even better because of her physical strength. I think she'd make a great mom who would care well for her kids physical and emotional well being. She'd likely respect her partners way of living as well as set her own boundaries though she'd also stand up if she felt her partner was acting morally wrong, as in, she'd not likely make her husband feel "hen pecked". So she might not cook and clean so well, so what? She could learn, and her Husband could learn to do some of that too.

Besides, you continue to say "woman", not "wife". Yes, I get that the setting is such that woman generally exist to be wives, but phrasing it like that makes it sound like it's your own opinion, not the stories.
Besides, her physical strength, emotional strength, and ability to say sail etc, it seems she'd make a excellent wife for Thorfinn. There is of course the fact that she loves Thorfinn, and would obviously hate to be a wife of Sig, especially the Sig who started out the journey chasing after her. And how Thorfinns open minded enough and could actually manage to do things like cook, clean, take care of a baby. So she'd make a bad wife for Sig, but even in the context of the story, considering how she'd make a great wife for Thorfinn, your general statement is wrong. If Thorfinn could wave a magic wand and swap the two women and their emotions so Hatt was with him and loved him instead of Gudrid, Gurid would still make a better wife for him and he would be ill advised to wave that magic wand (not that he would)

So low quality wife for Sig?(or even better said bad match for Sig as a wife) Yes. Low quality woman? No.
Actually, I wonder if Gudrid would even be such a bad wife for new Sig. It is thanks to Gudrid that Sig has grown as a person so much. Yeah the journey she inadvertently set him on helped alot too, but so did her example. And he wants to strike it out on his own, there is a reason people of such sexist time periods tended to wait to marry till after they've established themselves, he needs someone who can do more than cook and clean. So for Sigs sake, let's hope Hatt has a bit of Gudrid in her, and she does seem to.

The emotions don't match the scenario. What Sig was saying was confirmation that the woman Hatt was resigned to share a house and a sexual partner with, was gone from Sigs life, instead of being happy, she got angry. Emotions generally do need to make some kind of sense, if you're giddy when a loved one dies and depressed about marrying man/woman you love or getting wealthy, those emotions and scenarios don't match AKA make sense and would be "preposterous",

Preposterous is defined as: completely contrary to nature, reason, or common sense; absurd; senseless; utterly foolish. Not 'inherently comedic'.

if you don't like arguing semantics, don't bring it up next time.

I wasn't the one who kept on inaccurately calling Hatt a mistress. I just pointed out that the word is wrong, which is not mutually exclusive to also not wanting to spend alot of text arguing about the definitions of being married and of 'mistress', especially considering the unusual aspects of the story which makes it especially tricky.

 

[Bana]

@truepurple

I wasn't the one who kept on inaccurately calling Hatt a mistress.

i have made my argument, you have yet to refute it. don't bring it up unless you have something constructive to say and are willing to converse about it.

in this setting, a woman that can't cook, can't weave, cant do the laundry is lacking the basics of knowledge expected of any woman. therefore, such a woman is lacking qualities that define the ideal woman. as such they are a low quality woman. that's gudrid. how do you care for a child if you cannot cook for them? if you cannot clothe them? cannot maintain the household when the husband is working?if someone is no good as a wife, they have to abandon your femininity just as gudrid has done. this is not opinion, i'm checking off all the expectations presented in the story and making a conclusion based on how she fits. it just seems to me you feel like you have to defend gudrid's "woman"ness. when she herself has abandoned it, that is the height of futility.

 

[truepurple]

@Bana
You are arguing in a really dishonest way, I could detail this or that but if you ignore my points like that as though I didn't say it then there is no point.
I shall reemphasize one of my points and have it be by itself so you'll have no excuse to ignore it. Of course the conversation would take way too long if we continued in such a fashion, but let's try it once. Plus then I can focus on how it's dishonest.

There are more to what it means to be a woman than being a wife just as there is more to what it means to be a man than just being a husband, even within the general antiquated sexist views on gender roles you seem to prescribe to. So "Gudrid is a low quality woman because she would not make for a good traditional wife." is a invalid argument. It's also a dishonest one in more than one way, in part because I already partially covered this in previous replies where you act like I did not. But even more importantly, it is dishonest because you just take it as fact that being a woman is only about being a wife that you don't even bother to make the statement directly. So of course you don't bother to prove said statement and proceed to talk as though it were already accepted fact.

 

[Bana]

@truepurple
i have been nothing but honest, especially in not continuing an argument you keep bringing up, saying i'm wrong but also saying you don't want to talk about it. it is you who is arguing in bad faith.

There are more to what it means to be a woman than being a wife

if you are applying anachronism to the argument, i finally see why you are arguing a lost cause. instead of facts, you're arguing your feelings. in the setting there is no "sexism" as you know it. there is only tradition and that which is not. you are trying to mix your modern understanding to the societal norms of the past. that does not help understanding of the time. you are just projecting your beliefs upon the past in which your values make no sense.

you don't bother to prove said statement

facts that you ignore are the proof i provided. 1. women were expected to take care of children raising them and teaching them and maintaining the home for them. 2. this role requires knowledge and skill in specific areas cooking, weaving, laundry, and cleaning. these are basic qualities expected of every woman. 3. gudrid lacks these qualities, therefore she is a low quality woman. "proof" is in the chapters that introduce gudrid and hattrgerd.

it is dishonest because you just take it as fact that being a woman is only about being a wife

you keep making a claim like this without anything to back it up. in this setting, not in the modern world we live in, a woman's only role is to be the wife. where is your example of women that are not wives? do they claim to be women? i keep ignoring everything you do not back up with examples on purpose because you are only applying your modern sensibilities to some place it does not make any sense. it is a waste of time discussing those things you cannot even make applicable to this story.

 

[truepurple]

@Bana

"Gudrid is a low quality woman" At no point does the story say this. Instead this is a personal opinion, which is as much a "feeling" of yours as anything I've said. Yet you're treating your subjective opinion as fact. You say there is proof in the chapters where they are introduced? Be specific. Where in these chapters does anyone call Gudrid a low quality woman? Not that finding some nobody character saying it really matters but I still want you to back up your statement.


How about we take the story on it's own terms. Whether it be alliances or whatever else, Gudrid was high enough quality to track half way across the ocrean to chase to make her his wife. Sig only let her go because of his and her feelings, not because of her quality, in fact Sig admired Gudrids quality. Gudrid being a woman is part of her quality, he did chase after her to marry him.

So Sigs perspective on Gudrids quality not enough for you?

How about Hatts perspective. She saw enough quality in Gudrid to be jealous of her and forbid the mention of her, or at least she recognized Sigs recognition of Gudrids quality, it was evident enough with so few words. She wouldn't have been jealous if Sig were talking about a man.

Let's take Gudrid from Thorfinns perspective. Do you think Thorfinn will hesitate to be together, to marry, Gudrid, based on her not being quality enough of a woman? I think not.
Do you think any of their friends/travel companions will discourage a romantic relationship between Thorfinn and Gudrid based on Gudrid not being a quality enough woman? Doubtful.

And to your woman can only be wives statement. When has Thorfinn said woman can only be wives? The group wouldn't have accepted her if they thought that.

The story sees the quality in Gudrid. Its you and your personal feelings that say she's not. Talking about real historical facts, irrelevant. First no matter how historical it might be, it's still a fictional story. Second, it's irrelevant to what a fictional society in a story as a whole might say, only what the people who actually appear in the story would say. The rest of the fictional world may as well not exist, and generally readers accept this except when they conveniently don't like right now with you.

Hell, that's even true of real life. If this was a real story, the feelings of the people around them matter much more than some general society, especially in a setting without communication tools, slow travel etc. where people are more isolated.

So you speak from only personal opinion/"feeling" and that opinion is sexist.

 

[Operatix]

ugh, finally catched up. Need more Vinland in ma veins.