@TitanAnteus Didn't ask, don't care, also you're white. There's a difference between educating and discussing the critique included in the manga itself and completely hamfisting in your own petty personal issues. Nobody reading the chapters here cares about children fighting in Discord, and using scans as a soapbox is a great way to get people to think your opinion is stupid. Good on Koolio for at least staying on topic this time around.
Wakamono no Kuro Mahou Hanare ga Shinkoku desu ga, Shuushoku shite Mitara Taiguu Iishi, Shachou mo Tsukaima mo Kawaikute Saikou desu! - Vol. 4 Ch. 19…
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Dex-chan lover
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At this point I hope the group will keep putting political credits at the end of every chap just for the memes
Banned
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That credit page sounds something from Feminist Frequency... lol
Dex-chan lover
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Well, at least the credit page this time wasn't that bad. Less accusation and more information will make people not hate it so much. The WoT though...
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This is fine. No political baiting, just pure info.
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@famutan English does have a socially predominant gender/status neutral personal pronouns: "I" and "me." What Japan currently has is 8 personal pronouns whose usage is based on age, social status, and gender.
1) Watakushi - the most formal and implies the speaker as socially inferior to the addressee. Gender neutral for the most part
2) Watashi - second most formal. Current neutral pronoun for women. A young man using it would be considered unusually polite.
3) Boku - standard neutral male pronoun. the translator is currently explaining that it is shifting to be the standard neutral pronoun for both genders
4) Ore - male pronoun with hints that the speaker is superior or equal to the addressee
5) Atashi - female pronoun. casual/familiar
6) Washi - Old fashioned Male pronoun. use implies superiority due to age and social status.
7) Akakushi - Old fashioned Female pronoun. female version of Washi
8) Jibun - Military Male pronoun.
1) Watakushi - the most formal and implies the speaker as socially inferior to the addressee. Gender neutral for the most part
2) Watashi - second most formal. Current neutral pronoun for women. A young man using it would be considered unusually polite.
3) Boku - standard neutral male pronoun. the translator is currently explaining that it is shifting to be the standard neutral pronoun for both genders
4) Ore - male pronoun with hints that the speaker is superior or equal to the addressee
5) Atashi - female pronoun. casual/familiar
6) Washi - Old fashioned Male pronoun. use implies superiority due to age and social status.
7) Akakushi - Old fashioned Female pronoun. female version of Washi
8) Jibun - Military Male pronoun.
@Ultimatecalibur
Ah yeah, I got ahead of myself and assumed a wider scope than just the first person. I wonder if English's limited grammatical gender has any impact on the discussion surrounding preferred pronouns, when you lay the Japanese first person pronoun lineup out like that it makes me think there's a relatively fine degree of control in how someone could present themselves in conversation, something I think might be appealing to many English speakers. I won't assume it shakes out that way in Japanese of course since that's obviously a complicated social question but its got me wondering.
Thanks for the insight!
Ah yeah, I got ahead of myself and assumed a wider scope than just the first person. I wonder if English's limited grammatical gender has any impact on the discussion surrounding preferred pronouns, when you lay the Japanese first person pronoun lineup out like that it makes me think there's a relatively fine degree of control in how someone could present themselves in conversation, something I think might be appealing to many English speakers. I won't assume it shakes out that way in Japanese of course since that's obviously a complicated social question but its got me wondering.
Thanks for the insight!
Points of correction here, because there's a lot of misinformation going around, and because this is a topic where people get these things wrong VERY frequently in the non-native Japanese-speaking parts of manga fandoms.
1. Pronouns in Japanese are a matter of social status and the level of formality implicit to the circumstances. Gender is a concern only loosely connected to pronouns, but I'll touch on this point later.
2. "Ore" and "boku" are pronouns used in fairly particular circumstances. To refer to oneself as "ore" is to be especially arrogant, as there really isn't a situation where the level of formality is low enough to put it in an acceptable zone of politeness. The only time someone can get away with using "ore" is in a circle of companions who are more or less on the same level (i.e. all can use "ore" around each other); anytime else, it's inexcusably rude. "Boku" is far more innocent in tone, but is strongly connected to an age range; polite young boys (younger than about 16; the cutoff age is no later than the day you start high school) may refer to themselves as such. This being a convention specific to boys isn't a rock-solid thing; it's technically gender neutral. However, relatives or close friends of the family may refer to a young boy as "boku" in the third-person, despite it usually being a first-person pronoun, as a way to tease them about their young age (or, putting the boys "in their place", depending on your lens). Girls tend to begin to develop socially mature personae at a younger age than boys, which lead to girls imitating this teasing third-person use of "boku" towards boys of their own age group. Enough repetitions made this a social convention, giving the vacuous impression that "boku" is a masculine pronoun. This is incorrect; rather than "boku" being "masculine", it's better to say that "boku" is a "non-feminine" pronoun.
In recent decades "boku" and later even "ore" started to become adopted for use by tomboyish female characters in media - "boku-kko" and "ore-kko", respectively. This is because these characters are attempting to set themselves apart from modern Japanese feminine norms. Boku-kko do so in a fairly mild manner, but this is nevertheless a rejection of the most accessible female aspects and circles, to at least some degree. A boku-kko typically will have few female friends. (Watch Kino no Tabi for an example of one; another recent standout is Idolmaster's Yumemi Riamu, who does so because - despite having a very feminine image and not being particularly masculine in any way - she is poorly socially-adjusted, can't relate well to other women, and is largely bad at adjusting her speech patterns to the level of social formality when the heat is on.) Ore-kko are more intense in this respect, because for a girl to use an arrogant pronoun like "ore" - which isn't even socially acceptable for casual use by men - is her signaling that she is fully disregarding other people's opinions. Doing so is an enormous faux pas in Japanese society, and is the mark of social delinquency 100% of the time; if an ore-kko has any female friends at all, they're almost guaranteed to be other delinquent type characters.
3. "Watashi" is the default socially-neutral pronoun for both men and women in Japan. Women will, more often than not, shorten this to "atashi" at all levels of formality lower than business-polite keigo; doing this is not construed as speaking informally. "Watakushi" is more formal and more bold than "watashi", but is never used by men except when attempting to put on an effeminate air. Only the prim-and-proper daughters of wealth (the "ojou" archetype, named because these characters are often depicted as having servants or bodyguards who refer to them with the third-person "ojou-sama" pronoun) will actually use "watakushi" outside of business meetings, for this reason.
In effect, this does mean that girls and women get to use distinctly feminine pronouns without fear, whereas for a boy or man to do so is to put his social status at risk.
4. "Washi" is a pronoun for old people of either gender, full stop; men, women, doesn't matter, if they're old then that's that. The only pronoun for use by old men ONLY is "wagahai", which is theatrical to the point of buffoonery. Case in point: Bowser from Super Mario Bros. uses the "wagahai" pronoun in his Japanese lines, and he is most definitely stuck squarely in the buffoon's role despite being the designated villain of the series.
5. "Akakushi" isn't a thing. Nobody says that at all.
6. "Jibun" is not even, strictly speaking, a regular pronoun; it translates to (depending on the subject being discussed) some variation of "self": "myself", "themselves", or even "itself". "Jibun" can and frequently is used to refer to inanimate objects, rather than people. The only exception to this is found in the Okinawa dialect (borrowing the use of Idolmaster characters, Ganaha Hibiki - an Okinawan girl - uses "jibun" as a pronoun; this serves no purpose in defining her personality besides placing her origin squarely in the southern islands). The use of "jibun" as a pronoun by soldiers is a convention of the soldier debasing himself utterly in the presence of a commanding officer; think of it as them saying "Sir! I am not a living being, Sir! Please mold me in your image, Sir!" This use of "jibun" has fallen into disuse due to the JSDF's ongoing attempt to clean up their image compared to a century ago, and it's no longer appropriate for people in military service to dehumanize themselves.
1. Pronouns in Japanese are a matter of social status and the level of formality implicit to the circumstances. Gender is a concern only loosely connected to pronouns, but I'll touch on this point later.
2. "Ore" and "boku" are pronouns used in fairly particular circumstances. To refer to oneself as "ore" is to be especially arrogant, as there really isn't a situation where the level of formality is low enough to put it in an acceptable zone of politeness. The only time someone can get away with using "ore" is in a circle of companions who are more or less on the same level (i.e. all can use "ore" around each other); anytime else, it's inexcusably rude. "Boku" is far more innocent in tone, but is strongly connected to an age range; polite young boys (younger than about 16; the cutoff age is no later than the day you start high school) may refer to themselves as such. This being a convention specific to boys isn't a rock-solid thing; it's technically gender neutral. However, relatives or close friends of the family may refer to a young boy as "boku" in the third-person, despite it usually being a first-person pronoun, as a way to tease them about their young age (or, putting the boys "in their place", depending on your lens). Girls tend to begin to develop socially mature personae at a younger age than boys, which lead to girls imitating this teasing third-person use of "boku" towards boys of their own age group. Enough repetitions made this a social convention, giving the vacuous impression that "boku" is a masculine pronoun. This is incorrect; rather than "boku" being "masculine", it's better to say that "boku" is a "non-feminine" pronoun.
In recent decades "boku" and later even "ore" started to become adopted for use by tomboyish female characters in media - "boku-kko" and "ore-kko", respectively. This is because these characters are attempting to set themselves apart from modern Japanese feminine norms. Boku-kko do so in a fairly mild manner, but this is nevertheless a rejection of the most accessible female aspects and circles, to at least some degree. A boku-kko typically will have few female friends. (Watch Kino no Tabi for an example of one; another recent standout is Idolmaster's Yumemi Riamu, who does so because - despite having a very feminine image and not being particularly masculine in any way - she is poorly socially-adjusted, can't relate well to other women, and is largely bad at adjusting her speech patterns to the level of social formality when the heat is on.) Ore-kko are more intense in this respect, because for a girl to use an arrogant pronoun like "ore" - which isn't even socially acceptable for casual use by men - is her signaling that she is fully disregarding other people's opinions. Doing so is an enormous faux pas in Japanese society, and is the mark of social delinquency 100% of the time; if an ore-kko has any female friends at all, they're almost guaranteed to be other delinquent type characters.
3. "Watashi" is the default socially-neutral pronoun for both men and women in Japan. Women will, more often than not, shorten this to "atashi" at all levels of formality lower than business-polite keigo; doing this is not construed as speaking informally. "Watakushi" is more formal and more bold than "watashi", but is never used by men except when attempting to put on an effeminate air. Only the prim-and-proper daughters of wealth (the "ojou" archetype, named because these characters are often depicted as having servants or bodyguards who refer to them with the third-person "ojou-sama" pronoun) will actually use "watakushi" outside of business meetings, for this reason.
In effect, this does mean that girls and women get to use distinctly feminine pronouns without fear, whereas for a boy or man to do so is to put his social status at risk.
4. "Washi" is a pronoun for old people of either gender, full stop; men, women, doesn't matter, if they're old then that's that. The only pronoun for use by old men ONLY is "wagahai", which is theatrical to the point of buffoonery. Case in point: Bowser from Super Mario Bros. uses the "wagahai" pronoun in his Japanese lines, and he is most definitely stuck squarely in the buffoon's role despite being the designated villain of the series.
5. "Akakushi" isn't a thing. Nobody says that at all.
6. "Jibun" is not even, strictly speaking, a regular pronoun; it translates to (depending on the subject being discussed) some variation of "self": "myself", "themselves", or even "itself". "Jibun" can and frequently is used to refer to inanimate objects, rather than people. The only exception to this is found in the Okinawa dialect (borrowing the use of Idolmaster characters, Ganaha Hibiki - an Okinawan girl - uses "jibun" as a pronoun; this serves no purpose in defining her personality besides placing her origin squarely in the southern islands). The use of "jibun" as a pronoun by soldiers is a convention of the soldier debasing himself utterly in the presence of a commanding officer; think of it as them saying "Sir! I am not a living being, Sir! Please mold me in your image, Sir!" This use of "jibun" has fallen into disuse due to the JSDF's ongoing attempt to clean up their image compared to a century ago, and it's no longer appropriate for people in military service to dehumanize themselves.
Group Leader
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Thanks for the Japanese culture lesson
Yeah very interesting reads all around, sounds like there's a ton of context. One thing that I'm left pondering is how much the use of these pronouns to reflect social status and formality is tied to traditional gender roles - that is to say, if "ore" and "boku" have historically masculine perceptions which have eroded with time, do the circumstances that call for its use today also reflect the historical social standing of the average male speaker? Is the use of "ore" like a flex, as in a power play, due to a masculine historical context reflecting a dominant male position?
On the flipside, is the male use of "watashi" socially-neutral because of a historical feminine context? Maybe it would be perceived as non-imposing, like the opposite of a flex for similar reasons which are tied to the social understanding of gender.
On the flipside, is the male use of "watashi" socially-neutral because of a historical feminine context? Maybe it would be perceived as non-imposing, like the opposite of a flex for similar reasons which are tied to the social understanding of gender.
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Came for the boobies, left with a slightly better understanding of Japanese culture. Win-win.
Koolio
Excuse me, but do you honestly expect me to believe that the Japanese business industry, who's biggest complaint about customers tend to be the Misuse of Gender pronouns and arguments over expected formality, gender speech patterns and gender pronouns would ever accept "Boku" as gender Neutral?
A country where smoking is prevalent so a lot of customers have raspy smoke throat and miscommunication revolving around not being able to hear the customers gender and the customer uses a gender neutral pronouns and hilarity ensues when the wrong gender is guessed (usually 40 minutes of shouting) or when the wrong speech pattern and formality is used?
You expect me to believe Japanese society in which gender pronoun ambiguity is the most HATED part of the customer service industry and a headache in Japanese business will accept "Boku" as a gender neutral term when their Business Industry hates shit like that? You guys do know that doesn't make sense right?
No no no no, wouldn't they train people out of that shit and it wouldn't become mainstream?
=============================================
I would have preferred that you guys not have explained this because you obviously have more info and nuance on this topic to convince you that we as readers simply do not know so we can't even confirm if what you're saying is fact or fiction.
Additionally, I am PRETTY sure there would be a societal divide on the issue in Japan if this was really occurring, counting your chickens and saying Boku is now becoming gender Neutral looks absurd from our side. Oh really? Then what is the new Male pronoun replacing this old Boku one? There isn't one is there, that means this usage of Boku is contested.
Can we please not put guesses in on something that is probably controversial and not decided yet then? You guys do good work, but this is honestly one of those few occasions where asking for input from your readers should be HIGHLY discouraged. Because we as readers have nothing productive to add to about the Boku explanation part of your credits page.
Excuse me, but do you honestly expect me to believe that the Japanese business industry, who's biggest complaint about customers tend to be the Misuse of Gender pronouns and arguments over expected formality, gender speech patterns and gender pronouns would ever accept "Boku" as gender Neutral?
A country where smoking is prevalent so a lot of customers have raspy smoke throat and miscommunication revolving around not being able to hear the customers gender and the customer uses a gender neutral pronouns and hilarity ensues when the wrong gender is guessed (usually 40 minutes of shouting) or when the wrong speech pattern and formality is used?
You expect me to believe Japanese society in which gender pronoun ambiguity is the most HATED part of the customer service industry and a headache in Japanese business will accept "Boku" as a gender neutral term when their Business Industry hates shit like that? You guys do know that doesn't make sense right?
No no no no, wouldn't they train people out of that shit and it wouldn't become mainstream?
=============================================
I would have preferred that you guys not have explained this because you obviously have more info and nuance on this topic to convince you that we as readers simply do not know so we can't even confirm if what you're saying is fact or fiction.
Additionally, I am PRETTY sure there would be a societal divide on the issue in Japan if this was really occurring, counting your chickens and saying Boku is now becoming gender Neutral looks absurd from our side. Oh really? Then what is the new Male pronoun replacing this old Boku one? There isn't one is there, that means this usage of Boku is contested.
Can we please not put guesses in on something that is probably controversial and not decided yet then? You guys do good work, but this is honestly one of those few occasions where asking for input from your readers should be HIGHLY discouraged. Because we as readers have nothing productive to add to about the Boku explanation part of your credits page.
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