We Shall Now Begin Ethics - Vol. 4 Ch. 17 - Man in the Mirror
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As an Asian, I want to ask you westerner this : Is it also like this in the western? I heard that collectivism is not a thing in western, at least not so much so in Asian culture, do people also kind of like this too in there? Or do they speak their mind even if it cause a friction in the community of class or whatever?
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it’s complicated here. In America, we are told to be individuals, and taught to do stuff that makes us better off. But than we also tell people to get in line, don’t make a disturbance, or told not to think to critically
@musicfreak12
There is definitely a sense of collectivism in western country. Since I never lived anywhere else, I can't say how strong the collectivism is.
I won't say that everyone is a sheep and just agree with each other, some have strong opinion and will state it and even if you dislike it it won't make you an outlier or escale to bullying. In my country, debating is encouraged and most people won't take it at hearr. What can make you an "outlier" is if you are always by yourself and ruin the mood. (At least in my opinion).
There is definitely a sense of collectivism in western country. Since I never lived anywhere else, I can't say how strong the collectivism is.
I won't say that everyone is a sheep and just agree with each other, some have strong opinion and will state it and even if you dislike it it won't make you an outlier or escale to bullying. In my country, debating is encouraged and most people won't take it at hearr. What can make you an "outlier" is if you are always by yourself and ruin the mood. (At least in my opinion).
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@musicfreak12
At least in the United States where I grew up, Individualism is widely accepted and promoted in our culture and media. It is very common to hear stories of people who forge their own path, who accomplish great things while emphasizing that they had many naysayers and experienced many setbacks. While cooperating with people and the power of the people is still very much encouraged, personality traits such as bravery and leadership are often the focus. To take the bullying example, it was not too long ago that idea of standing up to bullies alone was commonly given advice (although that perception may slowly be starting to shift, as more people are being encouraged to consult an adult about such matters).
At least in the United States where I grew up, Individualism is widely accepted and promoted in our culture and media. It is very common to hear stories of people who forge their own path, who accomplish great things while emphasizing that they had many naysayers and experienced many setbacks. While cooperating with people and the power of the people is still very much encouraged, personality traits such as bravery and leadership are often the focus. To take the bullying example, it was not too long ago that idea of standing up to bullies alone was commonly given advice (although that perception may slowly be starting to shift, as more people are being encouraged to consult an adult about such matters).
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@musicfreak12 The west does have it's own fair share of collectivism. Most of it comes out in political opinions, whoever has the minority opinion is oft ostracized from the rest with opposing opinions. Loners are also still seen largely as weirdos (I was largely a loner myself, and people either bullied me for it, or tried to "save" me since they thought I was one cause of depression or something) even if the west likes to tout individualism. The west's individualism seems to more come out in life goals, like wanting to do a certain thing regardless of the opinions of others, if that is their passion, however this isn't always supported.
@musicfreak12
West is full on hypocrisy who says something and turns around and does the complete opposite. It sings praises of individualism but ultimately the moment you truly go against what is considered "normal" or "mainstream" you will be ignored, ostracized or worse.
Honestly, the biggest issue with this right now is regarding politics us vs them if you disagree with me in politics then you're the enemy and 10 buzzwords of the day, and how you can't even talk about your chinese cartoons in taiwanese basket weaving forums without someone trying to shoehorn them one way or another.
West is full on hypocrisy who says something and turns around and does the complete opposite. It sings praises of individualism but ultimately the moment you truly go against what is considered "normal" or "mainstream" you will be ignored, ostracized or worse.
Honestly, the biggest issue with this right now is regarding politics us vs them if you disagree with me in politics then you're the enemy and 10 buzzwords of the day, and how you can't even talk about your chinese cartoons in taiwanese basket weaving forums without someone trying to shoehorn them one way or another.
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bernie fans btfo lol
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@Midoriha
Ethics existing does not mean there are no longer any power struggles. But instead of being naive and direct power struggles, the struggles just become contests over what is ethical. The fact that people get so tribal about who is right comes from the fact that being "right" gives you power. So of course those who disagree would be seen as the "enemy"; just like your opponents in a fight or a war, your opponents are trying to gain power over you and you are trying to gain power over your opponents.
Every group has its own ideas of what should be "normal"; there is no one universal "normal" or "mainstream". If you go against what the people you know call normal, you may find yourself perfectly at home in a different group.
Ethics existing does not mean there are no longer any power struggles. But instead of being naive and direct power struggles, the struggles just become contests over what is ethical. The fact that people get so tribal about who is right comes from the fact that being "right" gives you power. So of course those who disagree would be seen as the "enemy"; just like your opponents in a fight or a war, your opponents are trying to gain power over you and you are trying to gain power over your opponents.
Every group has its own ideas of what should be "normal"; there is no one universal "normal" or "mainstream". If you go against what the people you know call normal, you may find yourself perfectly at home in a different group.
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Any mention of "rugged individualism" in western culture is usually reserved for the success story examples and ignore the majority of people who do similar things and fail. It's still a collective like any other society and mass culture, where if one deviates from established norms, they are ostracized.
I think it's more accurate to say that western culture idolizes personal independence (in terms of living situation and finances, regardless of economic realities) rather than expressions of true individual will.
I think it's more accurate to say that western culture idolizes personal independence (in terms of living situation and finances, regardless of economic realities) rather than expressions of true individual will.
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@Plophop It's, in terms of the American, has always been fixated on the golden and rose tints of Nostalgia; of "simpler" times where it was simply just going west and make your own mark away from the world. Though what has transcended such was the stake and arduous fight for "liberties", ironically enough enforcing and keeping so many liberties means that several other liberties tend to clash.
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@Kanami-chan
I mean, without going too deep into it, it's not like he said socialism is inherently wrong. And the previous chapter about socio-economic ideals went over this too. Hell, even this chapter went over it with individualism and collectivism. Any particular stance taken too far is going to meet issues. Capitalism and meritocracy devalues the plight of those who are born into a position where they can't really leave their 'class'. (Whether it be due to wealth, social standing, physical/mental disability) Socialism and Capitalism (at their most base forms) tend to provide a lack of incentive for innovation (other than for the good of the collective. But humans are selfish.) and can easily be corrupted by bad faith actors and greed.
There is never really a 'right' answer. The best thing you can do is just try to pick the route that has the least negatives.
I mean, without going too deep into it, it's not like he said socialism is inherently wrong. And the previous chapter about socio-economic ideals went over this too. Hell, even this chapter went over it with individualism and collectivism. Any particular stance taken too far is going to meet issues. Capitalism and meritocracy devalues the plight of those who are born into a position where they can't really leave their 'class'. (Whether it be due to wealth, social standing, physical/mental disability) Socialism and Capitalism (at their most base forms) tend to provide a lack of incentive for innovation (other than for the good of the collective. But humans are selfish.) and can easily be corrupted by bad faith actors and greed.
There is never really a 'right' answer. The best thing you can do is just try to pick the route that has the least negatives.
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@icantnotthink One tiny point, but "meritocracy" can be achieved in socialist systems as well; you simply need that the central government reward people for their achievements. It's not strictly tied to capitalism. The issue is always measuring "merit", but capitalist systems have the same issues with measuring merit as socialist ones.
The biggest problem with basic capitalism is that tragedy of the commons type scenarios (i.e. situations slightly beneficial for an individual but massively harmful for the collective) are unavoidable; hence we need regulations and taxes and funding to correct these situations. If someone says that purely capitalist systems are truly meritocratic, that would be akin to saying that helping other people with no benefit to yourself does not merit rewards.
Anyways, that was a just minor quibble, have fun.
The biggest problem with basic capitalism is that tragedy of the commons type scenarios (i.e. situations slightly beneficial for an individual but massively harmful for the collective) are unavoidable; hence we need regulations and taxes and funding to correct these situations. If someone says that purely capitalist systems are truly meritocratic, that would be akin to saying that helping other people with no benefit to yourself does not merit rewards.
Anyways, that was a just minor quibble, have fun.
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