Yoku Wakaranai Keredo Isekai ni Tensei Shiteita You Desu - Vol. 16 Ch. 73

Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Messages
2,040
But the "enemy" as far as they knew (ie. not including the giant) is mostly cavalry or cavalry-equivalent. The wolves aren't going to be able to do much against a stone wall that high.

Furthermore, the prince and their away team contain most of their combat power. So the smart thing to do would be to close up the city, man the walls and hold until the main force comes to their rescue.
The enemy as far as they knew were the Winter Lord's subordinates, which means magical cold and ice usable at least by the upper echelons (i.e. the commander-class enemies). Sallying forth baits the enemy into attacking mundanely, instead, which they can handle, at least temporarily, and forces the enemy to remain engaged with them, rather than allows them to spread out and remain threats for a long time after the Lord is defeated.

Wolves (which they were not aware of as being the primary unit of the Lord at first) are also not "cavalry-equivalent"; they can be trained and employed to harass and fade like and alongside light cavalry, sure, but the main use of canines in warfare is to crash into enemy ranks and ravage them until death of the attacker, like a berserker infantry unit.

Yes, the Prince does constitute the majority of their single target killing power against ice-based foes, but he and his entourage of high-level adventurers is by no means most of their combat power to the point you seem to be implying. It has left the town depleted, certainly, and that's why they needed aid, but they still have a sizable amount of combat power themselves; the issue they have is that they are against a literal army of wolves and other creatures, which means they simply lack the bodies to deal with the grind. The simple fact that they have only had light casualties and no deaths alone is proof of that. The returning fighters would be able to pincer them against the anvil of the city's walls and defenders and hammer them down much more efficiently.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
146
The enemy as far as they knew were the Winter Lord's subordinates, which means magical cold and ice usable at least by the upper echelons (i.e. the commander-class enemies). Sallying forth baits the enemy into attacking mundanely, instead, which they can handle, at least temporarily, and forces the enemy to remain engaged with them, rather than allows them to spread out and remain threats for a long time after the Lord is defeated.
This part I agree with. The Winter Lord is a repeated monster and therefore they knew it was going to be a powered up version of a lizard. So it is likely to have animalistic monsters under its command which might not have the patience to siege their town, unlike an army of goblins. An ice-using commander unit is much better resisted from the walls rather than a wooden barricade.

However, if they scatter, that's actually the best scenario for them, they can hunt down all the scattered monsters like actual adventurers do afterwards. That's their speciality. At the current point in time, their objective is for the town to survive, not to kill monsters.

Wolves (which they were not aware of as being the primary unit of the Lord at first) are also not "cavalry-equivalent"; they can be trained and employed to harass and fade like and alongside light cavalry, sure, but the main use of canines in warfare is to crash into enemy ranks and ravage them until death of the attacker, like a berserker infantry unit.
Yeah, but still not going to work against a stone wall that high. The wooden barricade is prone to being jumped, especially since they're wolves and therefore good at melee without needing the weight of a charge.

Yes, the Prince does constitute the majority of their single target killing power against ice-based foes, but he and his entourage of high-level adventurers is by no means most of their combat power to the point you seem to be implying. It has left the town depleted, certainly, and that's why they needed aid, but they still have a sizable amount of combat power themselves; the issue they have is that they are against a literal army of wolves and other creatures, which means they simply lack the bodies to deal with the grind. The simple fact that they have only had light casualties and no deaths alone is proof of that. The returning fighters would be able to pincer them against the anvil of the city's walls and defenders and hammer them down much more efficiently.
They only got away with light casualties due to MC being overpowered. Without the MC's presence, they would be in significantly more trouble. The returning fighters are strong enough to shatter the enemy no matter what anyway, especially since that group can fight a sub-dragon and are likely better equipped with anti-winter-themed equipment.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Messages
2,040
This part I agree with. The Winter Lord is a repeated monster and therefore they knew it was going to be a powered up version of a lizard. So it is likely to have animalistic monsters under its command which might not have the patience to siege their town, unlike an army of goblins. An ice-using commander unit is much better resisted from the walls rather than a wooden barricade.
If this is your takeaway, you didn't read what I wrote.

However, if they scatter, that's actually the best scenario for them, they can hunt down all the scattered monsters like actual adventurers do afterwards. That's their speciality. At the current point in time, their objective is for the town to survive, not to kill monsters.
Actually, no, it's not their specialty to track down an entire army's worth of monsters and slay them. Stampedes are so bad they have entire cities evacuate if there is early enough warning; they're deadly. Engaging the enemy and falling back as needed is the best way to survive for the longest amount of time, because it keeps the enemy there to be pincered and at least mostly eradicated, as noted.

Yeah, but still not going to work against a stone wall that high. The wooden barricade is prone to being jumped, especially since they're wolves and therefore good at melee without needing the weight of a charge.
Yes, you want them to jump at it, because in case you missed it, they're using spears in the front lines. Wolf jumps and it becomes easy prey for a spearing. Wolves aren't actually good at melee without having speed on their side, which is why breaking their charge with barricades is so effective. They are good at harassment without the charge or space to gang up on a single target, or getting a lucky shot on vitals.

They only got away with light casualties due to MC being overpowered. Without the MC's presence, they would be in significantly more trouble. The returning fighters are strong enough to shatter the enemy no matter what anyway, especially since that group can fight a sub-dragon and are likely better equipped with anti-winter-themed equipment.
False. They have been defending against the army for awhile before Ren even arrived, and they have not had any deaths, only casualties. They were getting towards the point they were considering falling back because of not having enough bodies to maintain their formations. You need to re-read.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
146
If this is your takeaway, you didn't read what I wrote.
What part did I miss? The only point I didn't directly address is that part about baiting them into a mundane attack, which is covered by the last line. Ice/Water themed magical attacks are better resisted from stone fortifications than a wooden palisade.
And most of the smaller monsters have very little that works on that big stone wall.

Actually, no, it's not their specialty to track down an entire army's worth of monsters and slay them. Stampedes are so bad they have entire cities evacuate if there is early enough warning; they're deadly. Engaging the enemy and falling back as needed is the best way to survive for the longest amount of time, because it keeps the enemy there to be pincered and at least mostly eradicated, as noted.
If the army disperses, that's already a successful defence of the town. And it absolutely is their speciality if the army scatters. That's more or less what adventurers are for and there's a big excess of them in town at the moment. When the anti-Winter Lord team gets back, they can start a big sweep of the scattered monsters while the high level prince faces down their commander.

If the monster army retreats in good order and diverts to somewhere else, that's added travel time for the anti-Winter Lord team to catch up and whack it. Time in which those monsters aren't doing very much besides walking around the countryside.

Fundamentally, the monsters are a superior force to the town's adventurers (minus MC) but are weaker than the anti-Winter Lord team. So the town's defenders' objectives should be to hold out and save their manpower for when everyone can get together and decisively crush the monsters, not to fight them.

Yes, you want them to jump at it, because in case you missed it, they're using spears in the front lines. Wolf jumps and it becomes easy prey for a spearing. Wolves aren't actually good at melee without having speed on their side, which is why breaking their charge with barricades is so effective. They are good at harassment without the charge or space to gang up on a single target, or getting a lucky shot on vitals.


False. They have been defending against the army for awhile before Ren even arrived, and they have not had any deaths, only casualties. They were getting towards the point they were considering falling back because of not having enough bodies to maintain their formations. You need to re-read.
All of these points only have better results from defending the stone wall compared to the barricades. Furthermore, the bit at the start of chapter 73 shows they were about to get overrun. Which would not have happened if they were defending the wall. Heck, even defending inside the gatehouse is still better than in front of it to restrict the frontage and thus the number of people fighting at once, plus added stuff like murderholes in the roof adding more firepower.

The monsters do not have siege, they are incredibly ineffective against a stone wall. At least not until the giant shows up, but the giant is impossible for the adventurers without MC anyway.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Messages
2,040
What part did I miss? The only point I didn't directly address is that part about baiting them into a mundane attack, which is covered by the last line. Ice/Water themed magical attacks are better resisted from stone fortifications than a wooden palisade.
And most of the smaller monsters have very little that works on that big stone wall.
"therefore they knew it was going to be a powered up version of a lizard. So it is likely to have animalistic monsters under its command which might not have the patience to siege their town, unlike an army of goblins. An ice-using commander unit is much better resisted from the walls rather than a wooden barricade."

1) Winter Lords vary, as do their minions. They knew the Winter Lord was a lesser dragon, because they had fought it and failed to kill it in a previous year. They aren't always lesser dragons.

2) I said that they have magical ice/cold usable by at least the upper echelons; we have no idea if the lower troops do as well. The entire concern of our MC is the town (really, just the orphanage and those she cares about) getting frozen through, which if they just played defense without combating them, would happen.

3) an ice-using commander is not better resisted from the stone wall. The only thing the stone wall affords you is the enemy melee being unable to reach you in a non-magical world, and superior archery positioning. It doesn't grant any form of resistance, nor does it enable you to hide behind it to avoid a localized magical blizzard or polar vortex or similar. Engaging with the enemy prevents that.

So no, you didn't directly address anything I said, just went "I agree" and then went off on your own tangent that didn't agree with what I said at all.

If the army disperses, that's already a successful defence of the town. And it absolutely is their speciality if the army scatters. That's more or less what adventurers are for and there's a big excess of them in town at the moment. When the anti-Winter Lord team gets back, they can start a big sweep of the scattered monsters while the high level prince faces down their commander.
Just like driving off the Winter Lord, huh? Except it's not. It just comes back meaner and stronger than before. Same would go for its minions. They want to eradicate the danger, not make the entire countryside dangerous from another threat.

No, adventurers are not specialized in dealing with an army of monsters, even if spread out. They're good at dealing with small pockets of monsters to keep their levels and numbers from getting out of hand, which is already too late in this situation.

Even when the anti-Winter Lord team returns, they can't put on a massive sweep; they can put on a tiny one, that could temporarily clear one area, but there'd still be a plethora of enemies left behind, even if they stayed for a very long time and scoured the countryside. Pincering the enemy between the town's forces and the AWL team is their best bet for continued survival.

If the monster army retreats in good order and diverts to somewhere else, that's added travel time for the anti-Winter Lord team to catch up and whack it. Time in which those monsters aren't doing very much besides walking around the countryside.

Except no, it's not, unless they divert back towards the Winter Lord and thus drastically reduce the distance travelled; considering the makeup of the WL army, they can outpace humans easily. You really underestimate what a threat they are facing functionally; the artist's bad use of static shots isn't helping, that's for sure.

Fundamentally, the monsters are a superior force to the town's adventurers (minus MC) but are weaker than the anti-Winter Lord team. So the town's defenders' objectives should be to hold out and save their manpower for when everyone can get together and decisively crush the monsters, not to fight them.

Vector himself is basically the one carrying them on that foot; remember that the AWL team basically had no chance of success without the MC's gear boosting him. The rest are there more as support and to deal with minions that remain at the WL's side, not because they are superior to the entire army that was fielded by the WL.

With that said, the town's defenders' objective IS to hold out and save their manpower to hold the WL army for long enough that they can be decisively crushed. How you can understand THAT but not that they need to engage them to do so baffles me.

All of these points only have better results from defending the stone wall compared to the barricades. Furthermore, the bit at the start of chapter 73 shows they were about to get overrun. Which would not have happened if they were defending the wall. Heck, even defending inside the gatehouse is still better than in front of it to restrict the frontage and thus the number of people fighting at once, plus added stuff like murderholes in the roof adding more firepower.
The guard captain outright states that they were in danger of getting overrun and were going to retreat if it weren't for the MC showing up. They sallied forth, fought as long as they could reasonably do so without drastically reducing manpower, as they fought only to light casualties, then were going to retreat.

Fighting solely in cramped quarters within the gatehouse would have been a terrible idea because it doesn't allow for any fallback locations, allows the wolves to do their best work as harrying units, and puts them further in a disadvantageous situation because the monster army can cycle troops easily, due to their superior manpower; the defenders would be exhausted long before they were able to do as much damage as they have already, not counting the MC.

The monsters do not have siege, they are incredibly ineffective against a stone wall. At least not until the giant shows up, but the giant is impossible for the adventurers without MC anyway.
"The monsters do not have siege" what do you think magic is? The giant showing up is far, far, FAR beyond siege; he is a wallbreaker, able to deal massive damage with even just a single shot, while traditional siege would take hours, if not days or even weeks to take down those walls. And that, again, is if they didn't just surround the town and freeze it out, instead.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
146
3) an ice-using commander is not better resisted from the stone wall. The only thing the stone wall affords you is the enemy melee being unable to reach you in a non-magical world, and superior archery positioning. It doesn't grant any form of resistance, nor does it enable you to hide behind it to avoid a localized magical blizzard or polar vortex or similar. Engaging with the enemy prevents that.

So no, you didn't directly address anything I said, just went "I agree" and then went off on your own tangent that didn't agree with what I said at all.


Just like driving off the Winter Lord, huh? Except it's not. It just comes back meaner and stronger than before. Same would go for its minions. They want to eradicate the danger, not make the entire countryside dangerous from another threat.


"The monsters do not have siege" what do you think magic is? The giant showing up is far, far, FAR beyond siege; he is a wallbreaker, able to deal massive damage with even just a single shot, while traditional siege would take hours, if not days or even weeks to take down those walls. And that, again, is if they didn't just surround the town and freeze it out, instead.
Wait, I think we are getting different impressions of what the sub-commander units were capable of and that is the difference in our assessment. The ice-wolf (or even the giant) being able to freeze an entire town or affect large portions of weather without being the Winter Lord does not seem like a reasonable conclusion to me.

The "come back stronger" and "climate change" effects I assumed were entirely part of the Winter Lord title and not something any strong monster can do. Normal monsters, or even super big ones like the giant, would not have what are effectively strategic weapon-class magic; it's only when they become the Winter Lord that they get it, even if they were candidates for Winter Lord.

When I thought of ice magic the sub-commander (and the stronger minions) might have, I was thinking of shooting icicles or shielding ice walls like how MC does it.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Messages
2,040
Wait, I think we are getting different impressions of what the sub-commander units were capable of and that is the difference in our assessment. The ice-wolf (or even the giant) being able to freeze an entire town or affect large portions of weather without being the Winter Lord does not seem like a reasonable conclusion to me.

The "come back stronger" and "climate change" effects I assumed were entirely part of the Winter Lord title and not something any strong monster can do. Normal monsters, or even super big ones like the giant, would not have what are effectively strategic weapon-class magic; it's only when they become the Winter Lord that they get it, even if they were candidates for Winter Lord.

When I thought of ice magic the sub-commander (and the stronger minions) might have, I was thinking of shooting icicles or shielding ice walls like how MC does it.
The Ice Wolves, aka the basic wolf enemies, probably just have some ice in their bite, but the Attribute-enhanced White Fangs definitely have magic, and they are sub-commander units, which until right before the Giant showed up, were thought to be the commander units, and thus should have been addressed as such. Remember that Norn herself is on the same level as them and is able to use lightning magic, and it's pretty wide-ranging and powerful, too, without even being buffed by the season and a Lord. Furthermore, the freezing-out of the city that Ren was worried about is just from the Winter Lord's existence and it remaining through multiple years, not even from it actively exerting itself. If they were to be left unchallenged, creating a blizzard over the city to freeze them out would be easy enough, especially give the other Winter Lord-boosted magic beasts under the White Fang's command, let alone the Giant, who could have even just lobbed those glaciers over the walls instead of into the wall if left unchallenged.

As for the "come back stronger" and "(passive) climate change" functions, that was explained as the Winter Lord absorbing more cold energy, which isn't something restricted to the monster designated as a Winter Lord, but the reverse- a monster that has absorbed enough cold energy becomes a Winter Lord. Normally they go out and eliminate the Winter Lords as soon as they are discovered, but sometimes they remain away from civilization for long enough that they get pretty powerful before being found out, and sometimes they fail to kill them, lose, and they rampage, or they fail to kill them and just make them retreat, which is what happened with the current Winter Lord.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Jun 26, 2024
Messages
264
i still not sure the lvl of mc since the rank of adventurer are weird (C is considered pretty strong) but seeing as how Norn can solo a B rank monster them our wolf is upper B or A, so mc is at least a rank B archer considering the worst case scenario, in the best case she should be a solid A since if she is in a safe spot she can easily destroy her enemy, she might even be S if she arm herself with enchanted equipments but since it wasn't show any S rank monster i don't like to consider this lvl
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top