Touge Oni - Vol. 8 Ch. 36 - Valley of War, Cavern of Poetry

[MangaDex]

 

[Zura_da]

Now those are Oshis I'd cheer for

 

[Ironclad]

Even chimps have wars. I know they have to build up credibility for Sansei Shounin's plan, but the idea that devolving into mindless animals is a blessing because no more war or bad thoughts is obviously dumb and wrong.

 

[crimsonmoon]

If Ozuno don't wife up Tarume at the end of this, I'm gonna Weft-Crossing to the manga myself and bash his damn head in.
Incidentally, does anyone know which chapter confirms the sacred treasure pages were written by Ozuno's master rather than Ozuno himself.

 

[coyote_vdb]

Thanks for the translation.

 

[Gunlord500]

Fantastic translation, especially of the poetry! Thanks so much ura-baiters.

 

[Caekester]

Ura-Baiters are my new Oshis

 

[Aelthar]

The mixture of sci-fi and modern themes with the shugendo aesthetics will never get old. I wonder if this is what our ancestors saw when they did those mind altering substances to see their gods

 

[Aelthar]

Even chimps have wars. I know they have to build up credibility for Sansei Shounin's plan, but the idea that devolving into mindless animals is a blessing because no more war or bad thoughts is obviously dumb and wrong.

Even bugs have wars but I think the difference is the sheer brutality and why we fight. When war is done for necessary resources like food and water, it's a lot more palatable than the ideologies and greed that drives the human desire for war. The military industrial complex is a very different beast from chimps wanting more bananas.

 

[BoopersDos]

Even chimps have wars. I know they have to build up credibility for Sansei Shounin's plan, but the idea that devolving into mindless animals is a blessing because no more war or bad thoughts is obviously dumb and wrong.

In this context, even Chimps would have mantras. They communicate, form relationships, and have social structures.
If you followed the context of the manga, you'd know that what Sansei Shounin wasn't trying to prevent wasn't war itself or to prevent malice. He is essentially a future version of En no Ozuno. En no Ozuno is deeply involved with Hitokotonushi. It's deeply implied that Hitokotonushi's degradation is tied with the human mantra. So Sansei Shounin's real goal of eliminating human mantra is to prevent the degradation of Kami. This is supported by the fact when he faced Susanoo, Susanoo reported that he only ever had good intentions towards Kami.
Only Ryuuboushi made the claim that without human mantra there's a end to wars and cruelty.

 

[zanonyn]

Echoing thanks so much for the ongoing translations of this incredible series. A few thoughts I have about this sequence though, tying in with last chapter too:

1. I do think it's too easy for modern people to take simple quality of life improvements we've developed for granted. Simply getting enough raw calories/nutrients is no joke for humans without modern farming, let alone nothing at all. Surviving environments year-round outside of equatorial paradises is non-trivial or impossible without clothing/shelter. Without antibiotics even trivial wounds can turn deadly. Territory is a big deal, which will promote conflict. Etc etc. Honestly, I kinda question whether humans stripped of all our accumulated knowledge and culture could even survive in Japan very long at all, or much of the rest of the planet for that matter. Anywhere with real winter, or where things like fishing are very important food sources.
   
   Author has been really fantastic overall in careful attention to detail and thinking in his scenarios, so this one stands out as feeling a touch more shallow/romantic. It does do the obvious of contrasting war and culture sure, but I don't think simple raw survival is trivial to dismiss. We live in a time of almost unimaginable abundance and power if you really drill down, powered by a mind twisting/awe inspiring fabric of "mantra". Conflict now feels really fundamentally wasteful, or about ideas more than need. Conflict of the past though wasn't just luxury power struggles, there were fights involving existence. IRL we don't all get to be magic monks who can survive on haikus and fruit.
   
   Hopefully we never experience that again though it's possible to see paths where we screw up that much
2. The contrast of war and culture is a common one, but war and culture also intertwine and feed/build upon each other like so much of humanity. Having them be these two totally distinct things and places also feels a touch cursory as a treatment of it.
3. On a grander scale the question of meaning and how humanity's story intertwines with that of the larger world and life is also a big one. Increasing power to our species brings the ability to harm and help, but unfortunately it's easier to destroy then create. At the same time though I've long thought that, to the extent that life is good at all (which I think it is) vs a dead universe of geological/stellar processes, then it's kinda necessary to "take a gamble on intelligence". Because the Earth will die. Our Sun has a finite lifetime before it turns into a red giant and annihilates the inner planets. Maybe humans mess everything up long before that, but if our world's life is to get a longer run then something smart with tech mantra has to be part of that and whatever said smart thing is might well be the same as us in the fundamentals. So we might as well just try to do our best.

One of the few manga that really makes me think of these things at all though. Really excited to see how this continues to go.

 

[tipkabound]

Even chimps have wars. I know they have to build up credibility for Sansei Shounin's plan, but the idea that devolving into mindless animals is a blessing because no more war or bad thoughts is obviously dumb and wrong.

Oh friend, I think you misunderstood Sansei Shounin's plan. He didn't do this because he thought humans would be better off without mantra. As Miyo has observed and lamented from her journey with him and her time as a virtual god, the prosperity and suffering of humanity are all meaningless to him. His only concerns are with his dragon waifu and the other gods — that's the main goal of the presentation, to save the gods he cherishes so much. The fact that mankind would lose mantra is just a side effect.
The discussion of what mantra means for humanity has already been covered before. Sansei Shounin feels repulsed at the thought of Ozuno becoming like those supplicants who rely solely on the power of the kami, which is factually correct considering the story is literally him going around borrowing sacred tools from gods. Mantra is the power to grant wishes, and Ozuno learned from Mount Katsuragi that people know not the weight of their wishes, recognizing that even he is no exception. His mantra to save Hitokotonushi brought a calamity upon Zen's village. It's reminiscent of that argument in Harari's Sapiens — the people who started agriculture knew not of its results or the splendor it would bring. Does the prosperity of distant descendants you don't even know justify the misery of now? Perhaps this is why Ozuno can understand Ryouboushi's words. He knows too well the weight of mantra.
Ryouboushi likes the world without mantra, and that view is sensible considering his very own situation. The very engine of the struggle around him is mantra. The people in the court don't fight for basic necessities like food and shelter. No, they fight for wealth, status, honor, nations — all of which are mantra, as discussed in chapter 22. Mantra is not just the power to grant wishes. Mantra itself becomes new wishes, new concepts that were not there before. And they constantly feed into each other, becoming a massive and irresistible torrent. Treating mantra as fate or history is quite appropriate, not only because people always look back to correct history into a story with a direction that aligns with their mantra, but also because every human being born is swept up by the massive mantra of humanity — money, nations, ideology, philosophy. These ideas existed long before you and I were born, yet here we are, continuing to fight and yearn for them.
This chapter somewhat mirrors Miyo's journey as a virtual god in the last volume. It too is a journey through the history of mankind. The difference? One is from inside mantra, as a human — Ozuno's journey. And the other is the journey looking from outside — the kami's perspective. They both see the two sides of mantra. Miyo's words: "My flood... my war... so many lives lost. But then... more were born, more than ever before." And Ozuno's: "Those things that twinkle brightly in the sky... Are they the fires of war that rage madly... or something that baffles the mind and dazzles the eye." Both refused to stop because others were waiting for them. "That journey is not over. Our wishes do not lie behind us. That is why we move forward." Susano'o, the wise, recognizes this drive, calling it love. Though I don't fully grasp what he meant — the four hearts, three black and one white oni heart, are still a mystery. Well, we can only wait and read.

 

[alacaelum]

Despite the argument... I don't think Jikimya was advocating in favor of Sansei Shounin, I think in a way... he was actually helping Ozuno to steel his resolve when he dealt directly with his master.

I can see Ozuno wavering and defecting if bombarded by "truths" said by Kozumi.

He needed time to process everything that happened and what it meant in the great scheme of things, it was a necessity to see the horror and the beauty of mantra, so he could find his resolve again.

Even the childish form he got during the crossing is a show that his doubts had taken hold of him... Miyo and Zen didn't change, because they don't have doubts, they know about the horror and beauty, but they will fight for both, because they know that for life to thrive, both need to exist.

 

[alacaelum]

Hey, are you guy planning to do Dark Air? Man, that manhwa is SO GOOD.

I heard it got canceled, or discontinued (can't remember which), because of pretty chaotic things happening in the Korean publishing space.

Was it completed after? If yes... please do translate it.

I remember that the author even made a pornhwa when they got popular... probably to pay the bills... it did have a decent story though, I didn't keep reading it... now I am curious if it was finished.

 

[Camillionaire]

Thank you for the translation!

 

[BalrogDeMorgoth]

That 'muh pureness because cavemen' falls flat when you see what chimps do to each others. And that starving while crying next to a dead parent is the norm in nature, not the sad exception.

The military industrial complex is a very different beast from chimps wanting more bananas.

It is quite literally the same thing, just with more steps and complexity. At the end of it all, it's just overly evolved monkeys wanting more overly evolved bananas.

 

[dxodiacs]

In this manga, Mantra means "to think". So chimps do possess mantra in this context.

 

[TheMode]

Chilling in mother nature with chimps doesn't seem that bad.

 

[Chuggoth]

-snip-

 

[TrashRatMo]

Two chapters in one day!! What a treat!!

It’s interesting that the bird behind Hitomaro seems less rotten in the world without mantra, I wonder if its condition was tied to the rot of the politics surrounding him?