Fukushuu o Koinegau Saikyou Yuusha wa, Yami no Chikara de Senmetsu Musou Suru - Ch. 142

[966socho]

I think people arguing over Victoria are picking just one aspect of the character and having drawn their conclusion.

The current "Victoria", the one who committed all those atrocities, is "Vicky" mixed with God of War. We don't know what that actually means yet, or how much influence the god has over Victoria. Was she merely given the power to interfere, and dived right into the misguided deviance we're seeing? Was she groomed into her current mindset? Or was she partly or fully taken over, unable to make sound decisions of her own? Different answers have different implications.

If she was taken over, you could make the argument that "Vicky" is innocent. After all, how can an 8-year-old have the mental fortitude to resist?

But if she was only groomed and was "in control", would she still hold part or even all of the blame? I'm sure some of us will say yes, she still shouldn't have made those horrible choices. But, what chance did she have? How different is being brainwashed/possessed from being groomed by an abusive family and not one but two vile, evil gods from an early age? Is the latter somehow different, because it's possible in the real world and not fantastical magic? Again, how could an 8-year-old have the mental fortitude to resist? Yes, there are stories (both fictional and real) that show it's possible to break the cycle of abuse, but that must be a rare occurrence, or else we wouldn't be calling it a "cycle".

And if she is responsible for her actions, does she deserve redemption after being removed from bad influences, receiving punishment, and showing remorse? If the answer is yes, does anyone else deserve redemption after going through the same?

I don't have a right answer here, but I know the author has one of their own that should answer these questions.

 

[lolfacesayshi]

...Ok, if she was corrupted well before the start of the story. What was the point of the saint corrupting her?

I guess it's the difference between "pruning weeds" and "putting the flower plant in a jar".

 

[Kurovah]

Are we off the boat yet?

 

[Xelarion]

I repeat again: No Demons have once tortured or swayed this child, just malicious Gods and their Faustian Bargains.

She was used to push the game forward, a tool of the architect warped for use. It doesn't erase her choices, but it certainly does properly color them in the big picture--and you'll find that she was mostly dyed in 'godly' colors.

 

[jubuttib]

is this a valid redemption?

... Of course it isn't, that's a silly question. You get redemption from your future actions after you've done something, how you ended up being a horrific person doesn't enter into the discussion. First you do something bad, THEN you can try to get redeemed.

This just explains why and how she became what she was, and makes it tragic.

 

[loquendo919]

Yeah with those odds there was no way she wouldn't grow all messed up it doesn't justify anything but makes it somewhat understandable

 

[gortz]

Didn´t the female hero also corrupted Victoria's love?

 

[Arkuses]

Again, we were explicitly told that GoW would be mixing with Vicky, so the "Vicky" we're seeing now is that mixture.

This is not "true Vicky" who repeatedly rejected vengeance, and only stepped in order to save Raoul's life (and being too young to realize the price).

EDIT: Reminder, for those who insist on ignoring what the manga says...
When Vicky asks the price for saving Raoul's life...
GoW: I don't need anything material. What I want is YOU. By borrowing my power, you and I will become one in body and soul. From then on my influence will remain with you for the rest of your life. It may even shape the choice you make and the course your fate will take.
Vicki: (It's a little hard for Vicki to understand.)
Vicki: ...What does that mean?
GoW: That's something that you'll come to understand through your own experiences. [Super evil smile.]

Chapter 138 p 6

What we're seeing this chapter isn't Vicki being tempted; it isn't Vicki giving in to her own dark desires; it isn't Vicki finally reacting to the wrong that was done for her.

What we're seeing is a type of possession, where the will of the person gets mixed with the will of the possessor.

That does explains why during that one assault scene in prison she was confused after the deed was done

 

[wilddeath]

A lot of people like, even obsess over the idea of retribution, the only thing stopping them are laws that at least try to enact some kind of fair justice, aka 'regulation' that acts to keep human nature in check.

If that wasn't the case, human history wouldn't be filled with endless cycles of violence. Often all it takes for such cycles of violence to come to an end is for one party to go, "Well, I'm sort of justified in taking revenge because X party did this and that to me, but I'm going to be the better person and just let it be."

I'm not saying the 'revenge' in such cases isn't 'justified', or that sometimes practical concerns about perpetrators repeating their crimes isn't an issue. But a lot of conflicts on a personal, community or societal level could really just be stopped if you don't take your 'justified' revenge.

But more to the point of this conversation, the reason why it doesn't happen is because all of that is usually just excuses anyway. Retribution is ultimately a more primal need. As humans we just choose to invent moral constructs to justify it rather than choose to not do it, especially when there is no more practical reason to.

Victoria for example here, whether she has repented or not, whether she deserves to be punished or not, is no longer a threat to Raoul. She's no longer a threat to anyone. It actually doesn't matter to the world, to anybody, except Raoul. And then only in how he feels pretty much. And for that part, she has already spent the better part of the series crucified alive with bugs eating her inside out, unable to die.

There is really no moralistic, practical or legal argument for, at the very least, just letting her go free (which I'm sure most would regard as 'forgiving' her). Only a primal reason. I can appreciate at least that argument if it was made, especially when this series is all about unapolegetic, raw revenge. But nobody seems to want to here when actually articulating an argument. Still clinging to shaky moral arguments for the most part. TBH, on that basis I don't have as much of an issue with commenters who just say they hate her and leave it at that. At least that makes sense.

ok here is a non-moral argument. Was she abused? sure. Did a god groom her to be the way she is? Absolutely. Does that excuse anything she did? Absolutely not. I am not arguing that she has not been punished enough, as you said she has spent most of the series in a very horrific punishment and if raoul the victim has decided shes served her sentence thats good, we can move on. What i can't stand is everyone saying that any backstory justifies or makes her innocent of the many many many crimes she committed.

It doesn't. Having an abusive childhood doesn't excuse you from being abusive. It explains it sure, but it doesn't excuse it. I am sick of people making excuses for her.

(Nevermind that the god we see is the same god form raoul took to deceive the king so how are we even sure that god is even real?)

 

[wilddeath]

That does explains why during that one assault scene in prison she was confused after the deed was done

That was explained by her being possessed by the goddess of love. she used vickys body to rape raoul.

 

[wilddeath]

I dunno man, presumably you read 142 chapters of this "dogshit" so why not share with the class?

No no no this is absolutely dogshit. not every manga is a golden story brought from heaven. some are junkfood. this is my junkfood turn off my brain manga.

 

[Narehate]

No no no this is absolutely dogshit. not every manga is a golden story brought from heaven. some are junkfood. this is my junkfood turn off my brain manga.

Yeah, it's kino, we know.

 

[rluka]

It doesn't. Having an abusive childhood doesn't excuse you from being abusive. It explains it sure, but it doesn't excuse it. I am sick of people making excuses for her.

It goes the other extreme too though.
If you’re sick of the people who think this excuses her (so she should be forgiven)
Mine is towards the side who think this excuses her (so the whole arc shouldn’t happen because it paints her as not pure evil and I can only enjoy punishing pure evil)

 

[wilddeath]

It goes the other extreme too though.
If you’re sick of the people who think this excuses her (so she should be forgiven)
Mine is towards the side who think this excuses her (so the whole arc shouldn’t happen because it paints her as not pure evil and I can only enjoy punishing pure evil)

fair but i dont think this excuses her. does it flesh her out more? sure. Did this manga need to do that? absolutely not. I don't think she should be forgiven but im not the victim. It does showcase moreso the cruelty of the gods and im looking forward to them getting their comeuppance but also i feel like this is just wasting time while a character we actually like is likely being raped to death by her own people under the control of her mother.

 

[TeamDia]

...cool. Now let's get back to the present, where VictoriaxRaoul can dominate!!!

 

[Nehona]

I feel that people are confusing too many different things into one single argument. There's guilt, there's punishment, there's redemption, there's forgiveness and there's reconciliation.

Guilt first. She had a shit upgringing. She was used, and controlled to some extent. She did many terrible things. So... she does have some extenuating circumstances, but we are not clear on exactly how much she was in control. Was she entirely, 100% mind controlled? Was it mostly her own choices, though she was heavily influenced? We do not KNOW exactly. Unless the manga gives us a definite answer, it's probably safe to assume that some of it was her fault and some was not.

Her punishment was terrible, but then again what she did was horrifying. Was the punishment enough? Once again, that depends on how much was she guilty for and right now we simply don't KNOW exactly. And some people will always say it was not enough, and some will always say it was too much. I am more interested in the other things I mentioned.

Now redemption. Redemption is not something you are given, it is something you obtain on your own. You realise you did something terrible -> you spend however long is needed trying to atone for it, to make things better for the ones you harmed and/or, if you cannot do that, for other people in general. Is she redeemed? No, she didn't do anything yet. Can she be redeemed? Perhaps, what she did was horrifying but IF most of it was not her doing, then perhaps. Or it might still be impossible.

Now forgiveness. This too is something that should be earned, but it is MOSTLY dependent on the one who has to forgive. Will Raul forgive her? Even if she spends her entire life/eternity/whatever trying to make it up for what she does, the choice is ONLY up to him. The victim is always the one who chooses whether to forgive or not. And it's a personal choice, different for everyone. And there's no single right answer. Some don't forgive and it's right, because it's the only way they can live on. Some forgive and it's right because it's how they stop hurting. Of course, if she does nothing to atone, she should NOT be forgiven...

And finally reonciliation. Even if you are forgiven, that does not mean your victim will reconcile with you. He can simply just say: fine, you've payed, you have atoned, I forgive you. Now get out of my sight, I have no desire to be around you anymore because things can never be the same as they once were. Once again, this is for the victim to choose. The person who is guilty can only try, the result is not guaranteed.

Sorry for the wall of text, it's just that people confuse different arguments all together as one, and it's not so. This manga is complete trash but somehow I still read it cause I want to see how it will end. I must admit I'm curious....

 

[reGAPTCHO]

Wasn't expecting this kind of debate here... too much wall of text lol.

Ah there goes the smile I wating for... now I'm curious what that person said that was suppose to be "crazy" next chapter will be... this manga is kinda all over the place and yes I still don't like her xd.

That chapter was needlessly cruel between poor Strauss' undignified demise and Kid Victoria's full blow descent into villainy.

I don't know. Victoria did commit serious crimes, but she got punished enough I guess (remember that entire scene where her corpse is eaten and has bugs all over it) while she might get some redemption judging from what I heard about the recent LN volume.

Not nearly let hell claim her then it'll be satisfactory... but clearly the author wants us to choose her over the other girl.. lol.
(Don't take me serious.)

 

[Akikako]

Not one but two evil gods influenced her life, now that she is free from them she returned her true self. Probably Raul will judge her again to find if now her soul is clean of not.

 

[handtied]

Whether she had horrible childhood, or even under influence, that's got nothing to do with all of the victims of her atrocities. You don't get exemption just because you're under influence. Being under influence is her problem. Why would anybody else must suffer because of that?

 

[XNFEdayo]

That chapter was needlessly cruel between poor Strauss' undignified demise and Kid Victoria's full blow descent into villainy.

I don't know. Victoria did commit serious crimes, but she got punished enough I guess (remember that entire scene where her corpse is eaten and has bugs all over it) while she might get some redemption judging from what I heard about the recent LN volume.

You're remembering wrong.
Her corpse wasn't eaten......she was never a corpse. Victoria, to this very day, has never died. She was eaten alive by bugs and is now the only living human in hell.

Honestly, the gods need to suffer for everything they did. This is the 4th incident (technically the first) where they twisted an innocent soul into a monster. The MC being one of the four. I can definitely forgive Victoria for what she done, she suffered more than enough.
Hell I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they had a direct hand in what happened to Rosalind and Valentine. The way their spirits tried to defend Victoria from the gods is suspect.