Ad Astra - Scipio and Hannibal - Vol. 13 Ch. 78 - Battle of Zama: Warrior of Principle
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Not only were Hannibal's schemes foiled for the first time with the failure of the elephant gambit, he also will be skewered by Massinissa's cavalry when it comes back. Even his numeric advantage is not decisive, as it is counterattacked by the order, discipline and new battle tactics of Scipio's legionaries and his own troops lack of discipline and dependence on mercenaries. Alas, Hannibal's cunning wasn't able to overcome Scipio's own cunning and better quality troops, and Carthage pays for its senate's ineptitude and greed.
Carthago Delenda Est
Carthago Delenda Est
@EmperorBR
I think a major lesson of history was that it's not just cunning, but everything leading up to it, logistics, support from the home front, intelligence, and how victory in battle can itself be a trap in war. Rome suffered heavily at the start, so they were forced to adapt. But Rome also had a political structure and depth of institutions and resources that allowed it to adapt, to rebuild and try again with new people. Having the war always on their doorstep hardened them, while Carthage grew indulgent from success abroad without needing to pay for it.
I think a major lesson of history was that it's not just cunning, but everything leading up to it, logistics, support from the home front, intelligence, and how victory in battle can itself be a trap in war. Rome suffered heavily at the start, so they were forced to adapt. But Rome also had a political structure and depth of institutions and resources that allowed it to adapt, to rebuild and try again with new people. Having the war always on their doorstep hardened them, while Carthage grew indulgent from success abroad without needing to pay for it.
Yeah for sure, and it's the one historical part that I'm still bummed this adaption misses. Hannibal actually got good terms originally, and Scipio and Rome offered and accepted generous terms for peace. Carthage could have escaped relatively well, with Hannibal to some extent accomplishing the aim of blunting Rome if not actually defeating it. But by betraying that and setting the stage for Zama and what comes after the Carthage leadership sealed their fate, Rome wasn't going to allow this shit to all go down again so imposed very harsh terms that set the stage for the final Punic War and their ultimate destruction (at the hands of another Scipio!).
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I wonder how things would have been different if, say, the Carthaginian politicos had put some money and effort into developing some siege capabilities. I mean, if I understand the early to mid phases of the war correctly, Hannibal's armies were for some time not directly opposed in battle by Roman armies in the field--they didn't think they could take him. But Hannibal wasn't able to take key cities, and basically wandered around Italy unable to turn his tactical victories into strategic gains, and suffering from Fabius' supply-oriented warfare. So I'm presuming he must not have had a serious siege train; what if he had, and could just crush city after city, consolidating his battlefield advantage?
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CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
That said, I think the author is lessening Hannibal quite a bit in this battle ( probably to make Scipio look better ). All the sources ( that BTW were Roman , so they had not exactly any love for Hannibal ) tend to paint a quite diferent story, in which Hannibal had pulled another Cannae on the Romans ( by luring the Romans against his veterans while pushing the Gauls and mercs to the sides , threatning another envelopment ) and that only Scipio wit ( by matching the Carthaginian move with a similar one ), the sturdiness of the Roman soldier ( especially the survivors of Cannae ) and the timely return of Massinissa had brought a victory to the Romans.
Anyway, interpretations are cheap and anyone has atleast one
Anyway, interpretations are cheap and anyone has atleast one
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I wonder if we'll get the epilogue of the rumoured "best General discussions" between Hannibal and Scipio later on in their lives
Nah, Scipio actually looks worse to some extent in this adaption given it completely cuts the entire intermediary stuff. I think the author was just in a rush at this point. Not sure if the series was pushed to finish by the publisher, or he was just running out of steam, but there are only 3 chapters left so everything had to get condensed to try to still get the core historical bits across but much shorter. If Zama is wrapped up next chapter that leaves just two for the entire aftermath which itself could take a bunch more easily.
@Purplelibraryguy
Well, Hannibal, by his own decision, had come to Italy light on the baggage ( that is something people tend to forget: Hannibal had been pretty much chased all the way between Iberia and Galia Cisalpina by Roman armies, so he had to move fast ) and he had to drop a lot of what he had brought was lost in the Alps ( there is that episode where he had to burn part of his siege equipment to heat boulders that were in the way in order to fracture them, just to name one ). After he got to Galia Cisalpina and gaining his first battles, he famously decided to cross a swamp in Northern Etruria to avoid chasing armies and to gain a tactical advantage, where more equipment was lost ( a episode covered in this manga BTW ). So, even after Cannae, Hannibal was not in conditions to siege pretty muc anything ( and where he tried, in Taranto, even with the help of the locals, the Roman garrison was able to hold in the city citatel for years and actually held for long enough to see Hannibal forced to lift siege ) and the fact that he had to pretty much stay mobile for all the time he was in Italy ( both to avoid being trapped by the two or three armies that were always nearby and to be able to show everywere the Romans were menacing his allies ) was not conductive to him rebuilding his baggage train and to get siege weaponry.
Sure, the Romans after Cannae were quite aware that Hannibal presence in the field was worth an extra army or two ( same as Wellington said about Napoleon, that he alone was worth 40000 extra soldiers in his calculations ) and pretty much left him alone in the field, just focusing on not letting him to get reinforcements ... but Hannibal was also not in conditions of actually giving the final blow to Rome.
About the politicos of Carthage ... my personal opinion is that they got a black image for no particularly good reason. Sure, Hannibal was alone for years and the only help that got there was from is own brothers ( that had recruited by themselves armies in Iberia and Gaul ), but if we try to see what they could do ... there is not much.
Carthage, unlike in the 1st Punic war, was never in control of the seas ( due to the obligations Carthage had agreed to in the end of the 1st Punic war, their war navy was kept at skeleton levels ) and the Roman navy was quick to beat their navy out to its port again when they tried to act near Ostia ( the harbor of Rome proper ) in the beginning of the war. This means that any army from Carthage proper would not be able to get to Italy ( unless they could sneak across the strait of Gibraltar like Hannibal father had done to get to Iberia ) and the only reinforcements Hannibal could count on had be recruited in Iberia or Gaul and walked to Italy. And even there they would need to be able to actually join with Hannibal, something that Romans did everything they could to avoid.
Besides that, Carthage could act diplomatically and convince other neighbours of Rome besides the Gauls to join the fray ... and that basically meant to get Macedon to their side, something that they did and were willing to pay for ( literally ). But ,as it is partially covered in this manga, the messengers were intercepted and Rome made quite clear to Macedon that it was in their best interests to stay out of that fight ( if it was or not ... well, guess who was the next big baddie in the need of being conquered in the eyes of the Romans after Carthage was defeated ? ).
In the end it is not that the politicos had not made anything to help Hannibal ... it is just that what they could do was simply not enough to give him any meaningful help. Atleast that is my reading of the whole situation
Well, Hannibal, by his own decision, had come to Italy light on the baggage ( that is something people tend to forget: Hannibal had been pretty much chased all the way between Iberia and Galia Cisalpina by Roman armies, so he had to move fast ) and he had to drop a lot of what he had brought was lost in the Alps ( there is that episode where he had to burn part of his siege equipment to heat boulders that were in the way in order to fracture them, just to name one ). After he got to Galia Cisalpina and gaining his first battles, he famously decided to cross a swamp in Northern Etruria to avoid chasing armies and to gain a tactical advantage, where more equipment was lost ( a episode covered in this manga BTW ). So, even after Cannae, Hannibal was not in conditions to siege pretty muc anything ( and where he tried, in Taranto, even with the help of the locals, the Roman garrison was able to hold in the city citatel for years and actually held for long enough to see Hannibal forced to lift siege ) and the fact that he had to pretty much stay mobile for all the time he was in Italy ( both to avoid being trapped by the two or three armies that were always nearby and to be able to show everywere the Romans were menacing his allies ) was not conductive to him rebuilding his baggage train and to get siege weaponry.
Sure, the Romans after Cannae were quite aware that Hannibal presence in the field was worth an extra army or two ( same as Wellington said about Napoleon, that he alone was worth 40000 extra soldiers in his calculations
) and pretty much left him alone in the field, just focusing on not letting him to get reinforcements ... but Hannibal was also not in conditions of actually giving the final blow to Rome.About the politicos of Carthage ... my personal opinion is that they got a black image for no particularly good reason. Sure, Hannibal was alone for years and the only help that got there was from is own brothers ( that had recruited by themselves armies in Iberia and Gaul ), but if we try to see what they could do ... there is not much.
Carthage, unlike in the 1st Punic war, was never in control of the seas ( due to the obligations Carthage had agreed to in the end of the 1st Punic war, their war navy was kept at skeleton levels ) and the Roman navy was quick to beat their navy out to its port again when they tried to act near Ostia ( the harbor of Rome proper ) in the beginning of the war. This means that any army from Carthage proper would not be able to get to Italy ( unless they could sneak across the strait of Gibraltar like Hannibal father had done to get to Iberia ) and the only reinforcements Hannibal could count on had be recruited in Iberia or Gaul and walked to Italy. And even there they would need to be able to actually join with Hannibal, something that Romans did everything they could to avoid.
Besides that, Carthage could act diplomatically and convince other neighbours of Rome besides the Gauls to join the fray ... and that basically meant to get Macedon to their side, something that they did and were willing to pay for ( literally ). But ,as it is partially covered in this manga, the messengers were intercepted and Rome made quite clear to Macedon that it was in their best interests to stay out of that fight ( if it was or not ... well, guess who was the next big baddie in the need of being conquered in the eyes of the Romans after Carthage was defeated ?
).In the end it is not that the politicos had not made anything to help Hannibal ... it is just that what they could do was simply not enough to give him any meaningful help. Atleast that is my reading of the whole situation
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Thanks for the transaltion
@zanonyn
Yeah, Scipio is also not being given the space he probably deserved in this battle ( especially if we compare with the detailed view we got of earlier episodes in this manga ), but IMHO Hannibal is getting the biggest shaft in here, because he is being shown to be surprised and reacting to the situation ... where all the sources ( again, Roman ones ) talk about how he expertly lured Scipio into a trap that Scipio was smart enough to react to fast enough and where the resilience of the average Roman soldier had bought enough time to Massinisa to come back and deliver the stab in the back of the Carthaginian army.
In other words, in the sources Hannibal and Scipio were pulling no punches strategically and Hannibal and Scipio were pretty much even ( with that dastardly cunning Hannibal pulling another of his Jedi mind tricks again to mask his lack of good soldiers ) until Massinisa came back. That is NOT how either Hannibal or Scipio are being shown here: Scipio is arrogantly full of himself and Hannibal is all " the pupil is finally beating the master" . Sigh.
Yeah, Scipio is also not being given the space he probably deserved in this battle ( especially if we compare with the detailed view we got of earlier episodes in this manga ), but IMHO Hannibal is getting the biggest shaft in here, because he is being shown to be surprised and reacting to the situation ... where all the sources ( again, Roman ones ) talk about how he expertly lured Scipio into a trap that Scipio was smart enough to react to fast enough and where the resilience of the average Roman soldier had bought enough time to Massinisa to come back and deliver the stab in the back of the Carthaginian army.
In other words, in the sources Hannibal and Scipio were pulling no punches strategically and Hannibal and Scipio were pretty much even ( with that dastardly cunning Hannibal pulling another of his Jedi mind tricks again to mask his lack of good soldiers ) until Massinisa came back. That is NOT how either Hannibal or Scipio are being shown here: Scipio is arrogantly full of himself and Hannibal is all " the pupil is finally beating the master" . Sigh.
@rrolo1
I don't disagree with you, but it seems like that wouldn't have the same feel either without the events following the Battle of the Great Plains. If we'd gotten to see Carthage panic, plead for peace while Hannibal was still in Italy and Scipio granting it on generous terms, ratification by Rome, but with Carthage then recalling Hannibal and breaching it with their attack on the Gulf of Tunis fleet, it'd build a lot more impact for this final confrontation in terms of the two of them facing off in a much more bare knuckled, somewhat colder fight. Without that build up it'd have felt like a more jarring transition maybe? Author is trying to jam in a lot of stuff here I guess.
Basically it ideally needed just one more volume, with Zama being end of 13/some of 14 and a few chapters for the intermediate. Can't be helped though.
I don't disagree with you, but it seems like that wouldn't have the same feel either without the events following the Battle of the Great Plains. If we'd gotten to see Carthage panic, plead for peace while Hannibal was still in Italy and Scipio granting it on generous terms, ratification by Rome, but with Carthage then recalling Hannibal and breaching it with their attack on the Gulf of Tunis fleet, it'd build a lot more impact for this final confrontation in terms of the two of them facing off in a much more bare knuckled, somewhat colder fight. Without that build up it'd have felt like a more jarring transition maybe? Author is trying to jam in a lot of stuff here I guess.
Basically it ideally needed just one more volume, with Zama being end of 13/some of 14 and a few chapters for the intermediate. Can't be helped though.
@zanonyn
Yeah, the absence of the Battle of the Great Plains and the negotiations after it in the story ( that was probably cut down due to the clearly accelerated pace the story had since atleast Cannae ) removes much needed RL context to this part of the manga, that is for sure. But I can't shake the feeling that the author was aiming for a "pupil beats master" story since the beginning and that he would hammer the RL sources to fit that goal if needed even without any other constraints. The time crunch just made it worse IMHO :/
Yeah, the absence of the Battle of the Great Plains and the negotiations after it in the story ( that was probably cut down due to the clearly accelerated pace the story had since atleast Cannae ) removes much needed RL context to this part of the manga, that is for sure. But I can't shake the feeling that the author was aiming for a "pupil beats master" story since the beginning and that he would hammer the RL sources to fit that goal if needed even without any other constraints. The time crunch just made it worse IMHO :/
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Wasnt hannibal also famed for never losing control of his armies despite all the international mercenaries he had?
This manga stopped doing him justice after cannae.
Hell in this battle, the old guy is giving more commands than hannibal and it's like a puppetmaster.
Thr author really glossed over many of the complex aspects of carthage politics, and the more complicated parts of scipio/hannibal's character.
Instead hannibal's been on a dumb losing streak since cannae while so much of scipio's mental brillance is compressed that he looks like he's a smug mary sue.
The story was written as such that u could root for either side but carthage gets protrayed as idiots post cannae, skipping all the subtle intrigue that lead to them losing. You don't want to root for them anymore, even the "defend our homelands from roman greed" message feels tacky by now.
Btw, series ends at ch81 so expect very rushed ending.
This manga stopped doing him justice after cannae.
Hell in this battle, the old guy is giving more commands than hannibal and it's like a puppetmaster.
Thr author really glossed over many of the complex aspects of carthage politics, and the more complicated parts of scipio/hannibal's character.
Instead hannibal's been on a dumb losing streak since cannae while so much of scipio's mental brillance is compressed that he looks like he's a smug mary sue.
The story was written as such that u could root for either side but carthage gets protrayed as idiots post cannae, skipping all the subtle intrigue that lead to them losing. You don't want to root for them anymore, even the "defend our homelands from roman greed" message feels tacky by now.
Btw, series ends at ch81 so expect very rushed ending.
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@deltarayedge It's historically accurate that he only won minor battles because he fought fights with lower numbers that he was sure to win. It all boils down to not having enough troops and Carthage's greed for his downfall.
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@rosen_ritter those points are brought up in the manga but given far less panels than they deserve. It should have been something the characters constantly brought up.
Post cannae we did get pages of carthage politics and small afking in camps but it looked more like carthage politicians were idiots who wanted spainish mines more than they cared about hating on hannibal or caring about reducing rome.
And it got worse from there.
This whole fight skips on the treaty politics before the fight, and things like hannibal luring scipico into a trap, albeit unsuccessfully.
By the later half of this manga, one might assume hannibal's only fame was encirclement, gallic alliances and crossing the alps. All that it would take to beat him is to get past being surrounded, steal some cavalry and attack carthage.
Post cannae we did get pages of carthage politics and small afking in camps but it looked more like carthage politicians were idiots who wanted spainish mines more than they cared about hating on hannibal or caring about reducing rome.
And it got worse from there.
This whole fight skips on the treaty politics before the fight, and things like hannibal luring scipico into a trap, albeit unsuccessfully.
By the later half of this manga, one might assume hannibal's only fame was encirclement, gallic alliances and crossing the alps. All that it would take to beat him is to get past being surrounded, steal some cavalry and attack carthage.
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shiii im tearing up
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would have made a way more epic finaleThat said, I think the author is lessening Hannibal quite a bit in this battle ( probably to make Scipio look better ). All the sources ( that BTW were Roman , so they had not exactly any love for Hannibal ) tend to paint a quite diferent story, in which Hannibal had pulled another Cannae on the Romans ( by luring the Romans against his veterans while pushing the Gauls and mercs to the sides , threatning another envelopment ) and that only Scipio wit ( by matching the Carthaginian move with a similar one ), the sturdiness of the Roman soldier ( especially the survivors of Cannae ) and the timely return of Massinissa had brought a victory to the Romans.
Anyway, interpretations are cheap and anyone has atleast one
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