Adachi to Shimamura - Vol. 2 Ch. 7 - Shimamura at the Gym

[MangaDex]

 

[Lilliwyt]

Ah yes the gym part and the encounter with Adachi's Mom, i like this part.

Spoiler

Luckily here too we don't have the creepy part with the man at the pool of the LN.

 

[Oeconomist]

I'd been wondering why Nakatani Nio was contributing (without credit) to the art in this adaptation. Then I learned that Iruma Hitoma were writing the novelization of Bloom into You.

@Lilliwyt—

Spoiler

The part with the creepy guy is unpleasant,

but I guess that it's to inform the reader's understanding of the world in which Shimamura lives.

 

[Serenata]

@Oeconomist Oh I didn't know that about Nakatani, where did you heard that?

Also yes, Shimamura's family is sooooooooooooooooooooooo niiiiiiice I'm jealous.

 

[MoonlightwolfchanX]

Nakatani is helping with the art? Hmm... I can kinda see the resemblance to her art.

 

[Oeconomist]

@Serenata—

I didn't hear or read it; I see it.

Honestly, it somewhat surprises me that there is not more discussion about specific mangaka lending a hand in the drawing of this-or-that story. Amongst ethusiasts of American comic books, there is a long tradition of picking-out where a specific artist has done some of the work.

 

[Kamui]

Because it is unfunded speculation. Like there are tons upon tons of shoujo manga, for example, with the same general style. That doesn't mean one or another author collaborated with the art on every single one of them. Nakatani's art style, while easily recognizable, is hardly unique.

 

[Oeconomist]

@Kamui—

You are confusing “unfunded” with “unfounded”.

My assertion is not speculation; it's recognition. You could as well argue that claiming some shade of red to be red were merely speculation, or that some C♯ were speculated to be C♯. Words cannot help the blind to see nor the deaf to hear. If the color were later somehow proved to your satisfaction to be red or the note to be C♯, you could still claim that those who earlier said that it were red or C♯ had been speculating, and likewise if someone documents Nakatani's participation, you still could claim that I had only been speculating. *shrug*

 

[SpiritusNox]

You probably shouldn't credit somebody's work to somebody else without being sure that somebody else was involved. It's pretty rude to the original artist.

 

[Oeconomist]

@SpiritusNox—

What is it with these failures to ping the person to whom one is responding?

You probably shouldn't credit somebody's work to somebody else without being sure that somebody else was involved.

You definitely shouldn't insinuate that someone is not sure when they are.

I can't tell a C♯ when I hear it. I'd like to be able to do so, and maybe someday I might learn; but I can't. However, I don't infer from my inability that no one can; I know that many people can. And when someone says that a note is C♯, I don't start arguing with him or her, on the jackass theory that if I can't tell that it's a C♯ then no one can tell that it's a C♯.

 

[mirewitch]

@Oeconomist So with your C# example it is easy to verify. Even people who can't distinguish a C# can listen to the tone from a website back-to-back with the note under dispute. I think a better musical comparison is listening to a two similar-sounding bands in the same genre, and arguing the first band's guitarist is secretly in the second band based solely on listening to the second band's music. And that, much as your assertion that this is drawn by Nakatani Nio, is speculation.

I agree it isn't an unfounded speculation; Yuzuhara-sensei and Nio-sensei have quite similar styles. Also both are serialized in Dengeki Diaoh, so its not out of the question that Nio-sensei assisted at some point in the creation process. But you didn't say "I think Nio might be assisting in this manga." You just asserted she was like it was a fact, and only clarified you had no hard evidence when people asked you about it. And that is both misleading and very rude to Yuzuhara-sensei. Its possible Yuzuhara-sensei just liked Nio-sensei's style and incorporated aspects of it into their own work, as most artists do with other artists they admire. Also remember that this is an adaptation of an existing work - its possible that Yuzuhara-sensei was hired specifically because they could produce work that is similar to Nio-sensei. Bloom Into You was one of the largest yuri manga of the decade, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the business people paying for this adaptation wanted an artist who emulated that style in hopes of emulating Bloom Into You's success. I have no concrete evidence this has happened obviously, but I have as much evidence as your theory, which is why I would say that both of us are just speculating.

 

[Oeconomist]

@mirewitch—

So with your C# example it is easy to verify.

It's meant to be easy to verify, because it illustrates a principle.

I think a better musical comparison is listening to a two similar-sounding bands in the same genre, and arguing the first band's guitarist is secretly in the second band based solely on listening to the second band's music.

That's a closer analogy, but the purpose of my analogy was to teach a principle, and some people wouldn't see that principle if one didn't start with an undeniable case. Afterwards, moving to closer analogies would be fine.

And that, much as your assertion that this is drawn by Nakatani Nio, is speculation.

And that illustrates that what you mistake for a better comparison is not. Some people are able to distinguish guitarists. I cannot, and you cannot; but some people can.

And I did not simply say that this were drawn by Nakatani; I said that she were contributing to it.

You just asserted she was like it was a fact, and only clarified you had no hard evidence when people asked you about it.

No. When questioned, I responded that I'd never heard or read of Nakatani's involvement; that's not the same thing as saying that I didn't have hard evidence. (It was, implicitly, the same thing as saying that i didn't have evidence of the sort that could be directly processed by those who needed something such as a press release or a report of Nakatani's remarks.) When fallacious objections were raised, I pointed to the fallacy. Again, doing so was not a denial of having hard evidence.

Were I the sort who could pick-out whether this or that guitarist participated in some performance, I might have to be paid to go to the effort of identifying distinctive moments; certainly any good will that I felt when I made the identification would be quickly erased were I confronted with a fallacious response, and so would not motivate me. Likewise for now pointing to specific aspects of specific panels in some of these episodes and explaining why they are tells, and why taken jointly they make the case. Arguing fallaciously is like handing counterfeit money to me, it won't get me to do what the other person wants, unless what he or she wants is to argue about fallacies. (And sometimes I won't even do that.)

 

[Adoob]

Ahhh I’m lookin forward to the next chapter. And damn, I’m really relating hard to Shimamura myself as of late, especially with this new window into her perspective.

Can’t wait to see how the next fated interaction unfolds with this author’s approach-!

 

[Kamui]

@Oeconomist your entire argument boils down to " I can tell! Trust me on this, guys!" which is, frankly speaking, bullshit. Art styles are quite easily to emulate, even without intent. Anyone who has ever picked a pencil can tell you that. So, unless you have some concrete evidence your "feelings" are worth shit.

 

[Oeconomist]

@Kamui—

_Kamui:
your entire argument boils down to " I can tell! Trust me on this, guys!"

Okay, try to point to where I said that or anything like it. You cannot actually do so, because I didn't. Instead, before asking for an argument, you began arguing fallaciously. And, as I said elsewhere

_Oeconomist:
Arguing fallaciously is like handing counterfeit money to me, it won't get me to do what the other person wants, unless what he or she wants is to argue about fallacies. (And sometimes I won't even do that.)

_Kamui:
which is, frankly speaking, bullshit.

Frankly speaking, the bullshit here is yours. But I suspect that you were so lost in it that you didn't recognize it as bullshit.

_Kamui:
Art styles are quite easily to emulate, even without intent. Anyone who has ever picked a pencil can tell you that.

Since you say that it's easy, why don't you post something that looks as if it were done by Frazetta, by Williamson, or by Steranko. And professionals often try yet fail to imitate some of the simplest styles.

_Kamui:
So,

So you're either remarkably clueless or you've got so worked-up that you've lost sight even of what you do know, which wasn't enough to begin with.

_Kamui:
unless you have some concrete evidence your "feelings" are worth shit.

Don't pseudo-quote me. Don't pseudo-quote anyone; it's dishonest. I wasn't referring to feelings and didn't use that word nor a synonym.

 

[mirewitch]

@Oeconomist Why should I trust you conducted a deep analysis just because you said you did? You're a random internet person who hasn't shown me any evidence. For someone obsessed with fallacies you sure do like appeals to authority.

 

[Oeconomist]

@mirewitch—

Why should I trust you conducted a deep analysis just because you said you did?

You shouldn't. You also shouldn't have busted-out a fallacious argument in response to my original remarks. If you had instead responded with “I don't see it” or with an equivalent, I probably would have at least made a beginning of showing where, how, and why to look. As it is, I'm dealing with people whom I don't like and don't want to help.

For someone obsessed with fallacies you sure do like appeals to authority.

Okay, so you don't at all know what “appeal to authority” means. An appeal to authority would be if I were to point to something like a page in A Guide to Manga on which it were asserted that Nakatani had contributed to the artwork. And, if that doesn't sound like a fallacious argument, it's because appeals to authority aren't always fallacious. It depends upon the context. In any case, I didn't use one here.

 

[mirewitch]

I'm tired of going back and forth with someone who seems to want everyone to beg them before they'll deign to support their assertions, so I'm going to stop doing so.

In other news, I really liked this chapter. This is a story that relies heavily on subtleties of narration to convey emotion, particularly with Shimamura, who is rather closed off emotionally. Manga can't do that in the way a novel can, but a good manga can compensate by communicating these subtleties in the art direction. This was what frustrated me about the 4-koma layout of the last series; we lost the benefits of a book, but didn't often gain the benefits of manga. This adaptation is far stronger in that way.

Take for example the scene of Shimamura in the pool. In the older adaptation, its skipped over almost completely, and is really only there so we understand why Shimamura is in a swimsuit when she talks to Adachi's mother. In Yuzuhara's adaptation, we get a wonderful little scene in which we explore Shimamura's self-consciousness about being the youngest person in the gym, her anxiety about her own inadequacies, and her attempts to deal with anxiety by withdrawing herself from other people. Shimamura sinks into isolation figuratively and literally, only coming up for air when she thinks of Adachi, one of the only people she's manged to form a strong connection with. Granted water/isolation metaphors aren't exactly original, but the execution is really strong, both thematically and artistically.

 

[Serenata]

@Oeconomist While I find their styles alike (and only after you mention it) like in some expressions or lines, it is really hard to say that it's a fact that Nakatani helped, What we know is that Nakatani has been very busy and still is very busy with her work (anime, manga, novel adaptation, stage play etc etc). And if they work for the same magazine, you could even argue that the one thing they had in common wasn't sharing their own skill but maybe they had the same assistant artist and these people aren't always credited.

Something else that doesn't quite makes sense is not mentioning her as assistant or helper, after all, now her name has weight, if she mentions this manga in social media or if they use her name to promote this work it would surely help the manga A LOT. But they didn't, is as if they didn't use Iruma's name in the novel for unknow reasons, you know?

You know at first I thought that Fairy Tail was made by Oda (one piece) and A LOT of people assumed that Eiichiro (fairy tail) was Oda's assistant because they all felt the same, but the reality was that both artist were hardcore fans of Dragon Ball and they were influenced by that work a lot and developed similar styles... Just saying, is not impossible to have similar styles.

 

[AgentKuga]

Hey I'm just a random person reading the comments while listening to heavy metal music.

Just stating my own opinion, I myself don't think Nakatani helped with the art.
You can think differently, of course, it's just my opinion.

I am also absolute shit at expressing what I want to say in writing.