Akuyaku Reijou no Ani ni Tensei Shimashita - Vol. 7 Ch. 38

[DeadToReal]

The requirement isn't absurd for what entry into the Mage Corps provides.
It's not just a job for the kingdom, it also means getting a noble title, and a pretty good one if the "Marquis" part of "Magic Marquis" is reflective of the rank.
Becoming a member of the Mage Corps isn't just getting a job at an organization; it's getting a top senior researcher position at a tech development research agency as well as getting an upper commissioned officer rank in the Army, AND getting a Nobel Prize, on top of becoming a noble.
That's more than enough recompense to demand exceptional talent.

And as for the requirement of inventing something, while a doctoral thesis doesn't require inventing something, it does require novelty and originality, which is what the Mage Corps entrance exam is looking for. So the Mage Corps do appear to be looking for those that can complete a doctorate thesis type of task, of showing some novelty and originality, even if it's not backed up with a mountain of academic research that can mount a defense.
If all the Mage Corps needed was someone simply skilled in magic, then they would have their pick of Academy graduates and members of the Army, not needing to hold a specific entrance exam.

Getting a noble title, in a medieval-like setting, just for being part of an organization is unrealistic, to begin with. It never happened in the past, and only became a recent thing in the UK with the passage of the Life Peerage Act of 1958. And even with that, nearly all of those who get a non-hereditary life peerage only receive a Baronetcy or Baron, at most. Getting any noble rank higher than those usually require the equivalent to being a prime minister. The thought of getting the prestige of a upper middle rank noble title just from joining an organization is absurd. And if you can become an upper middle ranked noble just for joining an organization, what rank do those higher up get? Duke? Prince? Saint? Pope?

But I overlooked it, since it was a minor detail said in passing that didn't affect the story. And now you're essentially telling me to accept an absurd and unrealistic requirement simply to join an organization, with an absurd peerage rank as a reward? I can't.

And you can test for novelty and originality without having to invent anything. Businesses and organizations test for these all the time, for certain high level positions that require it.

Honestly, I am getting bored of this argument. It's gone on for way too long and it's too damn hot for me to get the energy to want to continue this any longer. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. And since it does not seem like Maximilian's story is going to end anytime soon, you can enjoy seeing Maximilian finally attaining his dream of becoming Magic Giga Kaiju Titan all you want.

 

[Abricomas]

Getting a noble title, in a medieval-like setting, just for being part of an organization is unrealistic, to begin with. It never happened in the past, and only became a recent thing in the UK with the passage of the Life Peerage Act of 1958. And even with that, nearly all of those who get a non-hereditary life peerage only receive a Baronetcy or Baron, at most. Getting any noble rank higher than those usually require the equivalent to being a prime minister. The thought of getting the prestige of a upper middle rank noble title just from joining an organization is absurd. And if you can become an upper middle ranked noble just for joining an organization, what rank do those higher up get? Duke? Prince? Saint? Pope?

But I overlooked it, since it was a minor detail said in passing that didn't affect the story. And now you're essentially telling me to accept an absurd and unrealistic requirement simply to join an organization, with an absurd peerage rank as a reward? I can't.

And you can test for novelty and originality without having to invent anything. Businesses and organizations test for these all the time, for certain high level positions that require it.

Perhaps your preconceptions of what it takes to invent a new spell are the problem here. As from the examples of spells invented by people that are not written down in grimoires doesn’t seem to have required that much resources or prodigious talent, just the imagination to thing of a slightly easier way to do a thing already being done, or provide a small quality of life improvement.
Is adding heat to a hair-drying wind spell really that great of an invention that it is beyond the rigors of a doctorate thesis, or the algorithm problems of a senior developer position job interview?

 

[DeadToReal]

Perhaps your preconceptions of what it takes to invent a new spell are the problem here. As from the examples of spells invented by people that are not written down in grimoires doesn’t seem to have required that much resources or prodigious talent, just the imagination to thing of a slightly easier way to do a thing already being done, or provide a small quality of life improvement.
Is adding heat to a hair-drying wind spell really that great of an invention that it is beyond the rigors of a doctorate thesis, or the algorithm problems of a senior developer position job interview?

You're the one that keeps bringing up the doctorate thesis in the first place. I never made that argument -- that was all you. So why should I get hung up on meeting standards that I never argued for in the first place?

My argument is that requiring people to invent things, simply to join an organization, is unreasonable. Actually inventing even one thing is hard. And many things - including inventions - are only obvious in hindsight. It is only obvious to add heat to a hair-drying spell because you already know about modern hair-dryers. The assembly line, the gunpowder cartridge, the sandwich, etc. are all things that seem obvious today, but was a complete surprise to everyone else who never thought of it.

 

[Abricomas]

You're the one that keeps bringing up the doctorate thesis in the first place. I never made that argument -- that was all you. So why should I get hung up on meeting standards that I never argued for in the first place?

My argument is that requiring people to invent things is unreasonable. Actually inventing even one thing is hard, and many things - including inventions - are only obvious in hindsight. It is only obvious to add heat to a hair-drying spell because you already know about modern hair-dryers. The assembly line, the gunpowder cartridge, the sandwich, etc. are all things that seem obvious today, but was a complete surprise to everyone else who never thought of it.

And considering what is expected of the Mage Corps, having examples of one’s originality and talent isn’t unreasonable.
It’s called an entrance exam, but it seems to be an interview, and why shouldn’t an organization looking to fill a researcher position demand examples of original work during the job interview?

Given what Tillnoa and Maximillian mentioned about magic studies and other students in the Academy, the Mage Corps seems to look at what spells, if any, the examinee worked on in the Academy, and that in the previous exams Maximillian had not been told in such obvious terms to develop new spells to pass.

You say that it’s unreasonable to expect someone to invent something to get a job, but when that job is to be an inventor and research scientist who develops new theories of magic and applications, not just casting spells that already exist, I think it’s reasonable to want examples of previous work.

This isn’t expecting 10 years experience for an entry-level position. It’s expecting a published research paper or something like an arcade machine built from using a Linux emulator to allow for a single machine to play multiple games (which I did see used as a thesis) for a researcher position who is expected to undertake their own research projects.

 

[DeadToReal]

And considering what is expected of the Mage Corps, having examples of one’s originality and talent isn’t unreasonable.
It’s called an entrance exam, but it seems to be an interview, and why shouldn’t an organization looking to fill a researcher position demand examples of original work during the job interview?

Given what Tillnoa and Maximillian mentioned about magic studies and other students in the Academy, the Mage Corps seems to look at what spells, if any, the examinee worked on in the Academy, and that in the previous exams Maximillian had not been told in such obvious terms to develop new spells to pass.

You say that it’s unreasonable to expect someone to invent something to get a job, but when that job is to be an inventor and research scientist who develops new theories of magic and applications, not just casting spells that already exist, I think it’s reasonable to want examples of previous work.

This isn’t expecting 10 years experience for an entry-level position. It’s expecting a published research paper or something like an arcade machine built from using a Linux emulator to allow for a single machine to play multiple games (which I did see used as a thesis) for a researcher position who is expected to undertake their own research projects.

Original work is completely different from actually inventing something. This entire story is an original work. Does that mean this is the first isekai save-the-villianess story? Of course not. This point is moot.

And not being told the major requirement to join an organization is stupid to begin with. How could any organization expect to even survive, if their potential recruits do not know what to do to even pass the recruitment exam? Is this an organization in name only? With only a handful of members?

People at NASA are expected to invent things for future missions and simply for experimentation AFTER they join NASA. Does NASA require people to invent things BEFORE they even join said organization?

 

[Abricomas]

Original work is completely different from actually inventing something. This entire story is an original work. Does that mean this is the first isekai save-the-villianess story? Of course not. This point is mute.

And not being told the major requirement to join an organization is stupid to begin with. How could any organization expect to even survive, if their potential recruits do not know what to do to even pass the recruitment exam? Is this an organization in name only? With only a handful of members?

People at NASA are expected to invent things for future missions and simply for experimentation AFTER they join NASA. Does NASA require people to invent things BEFORE they even join said organization?

I admit that I should have used “original invention” or “original research” instead of “original work”, but I contend that the point is valid once the term is switched out.

From Maximillian’s own recollections of his time at the Academy, he scoffed at the students who were obviously experimenting with magic and broadening their horizons of what is possible, so we don’t know if the Corps keeps their exam criteria secret, or he just depended on assumptions instead of looking up the exam requirements or asking a current member on how to pass.
Tillnoa just flat out tells him the requirement, even explains the reasoning behind it, and gives hints on how to complete it, as well as telling Cain and Diana, so it’s not like it’s a secret.

Depending on the position at NASA, having an invention or research paper on one’s resume may very well be a requirement. We aren’t talking about an entry-level Aerospace Engineering position that’s going to be setting up lab experiments, and from what Tillnoa was saying about the expectations of a true Mage and member of the Mage Corps, those that pass the exam are not the support personnel but the mid and senior-level Research Scientists and Principal Investigators, the ones that require published work and having lead projects before.
NASA does hire for some positions straight out of college, but there are other positions where achievements are required, as detailed in Application Requirements and in the suggested development to apply for a mid-level research scientist/Principal Investigator position.

 

[DeadToReal]

I admit that I should have used “original invention” or “original research” instead of “original work”, but I contend that the point is valid once the term is switched out.

From Maximillian’s own recollections of his time at the Academy, he scoffed at the students who were obviously experimenting with magic and broadening their horizons of what is possible, so we don’t know if the Corps keeps their exam criteria secret, or he just depended on assumptions instead of looking up the exam requirements or asking a current member on how to pass.
Tillnoa just flat out tells him the requirement, even explains the reasoning behind it, and gives hints on how to complete it, as well as telling Cain and Diana, so it’s not like it’s a secret.

Depending on the position at NASA, having an invention or research paper on one’s resume may very well be a requirement. We aren’t talking about an entry-level Aerospace Engineering position that’s going to be setting up lab experiments, and from what Tillnoa was saying about the expectations of a true Mage and member of the Mage Corps, those that pass the exam are not the support personnel but the mid and senior-level Research Scientists and Principal Investigators, the ones that require published work and having lead projects before.
NASA does hire for some positions straight out of college, but there are other positions where achievements are required, as detailed in Application Requirements and in the suggested development to apply for a mid-level research scientist/Principal Investigator position.

Aren't you just pushing the bar higher to satisfy your argument? My last several comments made it clear that I view the Mage Corp hiring requirements the same as entry-level engineering/technical job requirements. And given that it is only now that you're pushing for mid-level, or even high-level requirements, I thought this was already understood and settled between us. It seems I was wrong.

There is nothing in the story, so far, that suggests that the Mage Corp was hiring for a mid to high level position. And since Maximilian had been rejected 3 times, only to be eventually be tutored by Cain and Diana, it can be reasonably assumed that the position Maximilian is being tested on is to simply get into said organization. In other words, for an entry-level position.

And Tillnoa revealing the requirements to Maximilian could simply be because Tillnoa knew that Cain was really pushing for Maximilian to get in. Tillnoa is a smart guy, and Cain did drag him to come from the capital to wherever they were at to test Maximilian. It's obvious that Cain really has to get Maximilian into the Mage Corp, no matter what. And Cain and Diana probably already met the requirements long ago, so they would've been accepted without being tested at all. So it's not a big deal, if Tillnoa reveals the whole thing to Cain and Diana.

 

[Abricomas]

Aren't you just pushing the bar higher to satisfy your argument? My last several comments made it clear that I view the Mage Corp hiring requirements the same as entry-level engineering/technical job requirements. And given that it is only now that you're pushing for mid-level, or even high-level requirements, I thought this was already understood and settled between us. It seems I was wrong.

There is nothing in the story, so far, that suggests that the Mage Corp was hiring for a mid to high level position. And since Maximilian had been rejected 3 times, only to be eventually be tutored by Cain and Diana, it can be reasonably assumed that the position Maximilian is being tested on is to simply get into said organization. In other words, for an entry-level position.

And Tillnoa revealing the requirements to Maximilian could simply be because Tillnoa knew that Cain was really pushing for Maximilian to get in. Tillnoa is a smart guy, and Cain did drag him to come from the capital to wherever they were at to test Maximilian. It's obvious that Cain really has to get Maximilian into the Mage Corp, no matter what. And Cain and Diana probably already met the requirements long ago, so they would've been accepted without being tested at all. So it's not a big deal, if Tillnoa reveals the whole thing to Cain and Diana.

That’s where we disagree. I do not believe that entering the Corps is an entry-level, lab technician equivalent position. I’ve always argued from the position that it is a higher level researcher position, given Tillnoa’s emphasis on flexible thinking and that academic mastery is insufficient to pass the entrance exam, as well as Cain’s mentioning that if being skilled in magic is the only thing Maximilian is good at, then he can be sent to the Army or the Church instead of the Mage Corps.

We also have not seen anything in the story so far to suggest that someone who first enters the Mage Corps starts with the entry-level duties you believe it to be.

What we have seen are the high requirements, some of the rewards for service in the Corps, and the mention that simply being skilled in magic and not meeting the Mage Corps’ requirements means that the Knights or Church would be alternative career paths.

Sure I suppose that Cain and Diana already meet the requirements, but what about the other people that were there? The Crown Prince might be excused because he’s part of the royal family, but are the servants and guards there also going to have the same clearance? Nor did Tillnoa tell them to keep the entrance exam requirements a secret.
So I don’t think the requirements are a secret, just that Maximilian didn’t think to challenge his own assumptions of what is expected of a member of the Mage Corps.

 

[DeadToReal]

That’s where we disagree. I do not believe that entering the Corps is an entry-level, lab technician equivalent position. I’ve always argued from the position that it is a higher level researcher position, given Tillnoa’s emphasis on flexible thinking and that academic mastery is insufficient to pass the entrance exam, as well as Cain’s mentioning that if being skilled in magic is the only thing Maximilian is good at, then he can be sent to the Army or the Church instead of the Mage Corps.

We also have not seen anything in the story so far to suggest that someone who first enters the Mage Corps starts with the entry-level duties you believe it to be.

What we have seen are the high requirements, some of the rewards for service in the Corps, and the mention that simply being skilled in magic and not meeting the Mage Corps’ requirements means that the Knights or Church would be alternative career paths.

Sure I suppose that Cain and Diana already meet the requirements, but what about the other people that were there? The Crown Prince might be excused because he’s part of the royal family, but are the servants and guards there also going to have the same clearance? Nor did Tillnoa tell them to keep the entrance exam requirements a secret.
So I don’t think the requirements are a secret, just that Maximilian didn’t think to challenge his own assumptions of what is expected of a member of the Mage Corps.

Every organization has entry-level positions. Most of the jobs out there are for entry-level positions. NASA is considered an elite organization. It has entry-level positions in every field. MIT has entry-level positions. When people are recruited into the knights, are they automatically commanders and generals? If everyone is a leader, who exactly are they leading into battle? You mean to tell me that everyone in the Magic Corps are like a bunch of communist hippies where everyone is equal?

Servants and guards are sworn to secrecy. And it's not like the requirements are some major crisis-level secret that can decide the fate of nations. Maximilian is not stupid. If Maximilian didn't know about those requirements, then those requirements were a secret.

You know what? We're just going around in a circle right now. And in the end, none of this really matters. You and I can argue for weeks about how unrealistic and nonsensical things are in the story, but at the end of the day, the author is the god of the story. The author can make the head of the Mage Corps Emperor Palpatine with Darth Vader showing up to tell Cain that he's actually his father - we would have to accept it, because it is the author's story. If you want to think the people of the Mage Corps are like the Avengers, go right ahead. I don't care anymore.

 

[BurntToast]

YOOOO! Congrats!

 

[Abricomas]

Every organization has entry-level positions. Most of the jobs out there are for entry-level positions. NASA is considered an elite organization. It has entry-level positions in every field. MIT has entry-level positions. When people are recruited into the knights, are they automatically commanders and generals? If everyone is a leader, who exactly are they leading into battle? You mean to tell me that everyone in the Magic Corps are like a bunch of communist hippies where everyone is equal?

Servants and guards are sworn to secrecy. And it's not like the requirements are some major crisis-level secret that can decide the fate of nations. Maximilian is not stupid. If Maximilian didn't know about those requirements, then those requirements were a secret.

You know what? We're just going around in a circle right now. And in the end, none of this really matters. You and I can argue for weeks about how unrealistic and nonsensical things are in the story, but at the end of the day, the author is the god of the story. The author can make the head of the Mage Corps Emperor Palpatine with Darth Vader showing up to tell Cain that he's actually his father - we would have to accept it, because it is the author's story. If you want to think the people of the Mage Corps are like the Avengers, go right ahead. I don't care anymore.

And I'm fairly confident that this exam is not for an entry level equivalent of a modern organization, but something more akin to a Fellowship from the UK's Royal Society or a mid- to senior-level researcher position at a modern organization, in terms of duties and responsibilities.

 

[DeadToReal]

And I'm fairly confident that this exam is not for an entry level equivalent of a modern organization, but something more akin to a Fellowship from the UK's Royal Society or a mid- to senior-level researcher position at a modern organization, in terms of duties and responsibilities.

Sure. And even that organization has a hierarchy, with people at the top and bottom. But like I said, even Darth Vader and a spaghetti monster can show up, and we would have to accept it, because it's the author's story.

 

[lenovoaxioo]

Thanks for always archiving Diana's panels, it make live easier

 

[Koneko_Nyaa]

My 3 new magics:

• A spell to make your shit stink more.
  • If anyone already researched this, they likely focused their efforts on eliminating offensive odors instead of enhancing them.
• A spell to induce testicular torsion.
  • I'm sure regular combat magic and torture methods are developed well enough that no-one needed to create this specifically.
  • If some sick fuck had already made this, it's unlikely they'd have shared such a diabolical idea with the world and risk having it used against them.
• A spell to make food flavorless.
  • Because who wants to make their food taste worse.

He said you have to invent 3 new spells. He didn't say they have to be useful. The less useful the idea, the less likely someone else has already tried it.