Assassins Pride - Vol. 5 Ch. 25 - Their Hidden Feelings
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For some reason the old lady feel she is being manipulated.
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this idiot, ignoring the fact that what she did was just one step away of being a crime, unless she had put TWO separate names from the beginning then Melida wouldn't have participated, if you only put the last name Angel, of course the puppets will choose the two people with that last name 🙄
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dumb bitch
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Tonight’s the night bitches die
@Ichigo69 with a few ladlefuls of idiocy because she's pretty much wound up making Elise's life more miserable every chance she got to do something, and keeps destroying her ability to make social connections besides, which...idk is kinda important for a noble lady to have?
The only reason Elise had relevance in the first place was because Melida wasn't a paladin for the longest time, but at this point she's turning the main vehicle of her own ambitions into a piece of dead weight.
The only reason Elise had relevance in the first place was because Melida wasn't a paladin for the longest time, but at this point she's turning the main vehicle of her own ambitions into a piece of dead weight.
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Who's Sriracha again? Can't remember where she was introduced and was wondering what was up with her in the past two chapters.
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This is literally the only other story aside from WoW where Paladin is a good class. You could say that FFIV is yet another one, but paladin wasn't really considered, the best class there, rather the only reason why Cecil had to change to Paladin was because it was the only class that had the power to defeat the enemy, pretty much a case of elemental affinity, even though his original class was already strong enough in power by itself. As proof Cecil's Brother managed to Defeat Zemus as a Dark Knight. But he could not end Zemus because he needed the power to purify. Something that only Paladin could do.
Paladin is such a limited and ultra specialized class, I really dislike when stories try to sell it as a powerful class when it's powers only work against pure evil.
Paladin is such a limited and ultra specialized class, I really dislike when stories try to sell it as a powerful class when it's powers only work against pure evil.
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@redpandamaniacal She's just some girl in the same year as the Angel cousins from the other school, as far as we've been told. There's nothing much to know about her yet, she hasn't gotten the "screen time" for that. That loudmouthed upperclassmen from the same school was the one standing out from that end.
@BloodySorcerer You're confusing the actual usefulness of video game character configurations with how the stories depict them. Those are two entirely different things. Even if a class is literally a worthless piece of garbage from a player's perspective, the setting will probably have stuff about how amazing they are written into it.
@BloodySorcerer You're confusing the actual usefulness of video game character configurations with how the stories depict them. Those are two entirely different things. Even if a class is literally a worthless piece of garbage from a player's perspective, the setting will probably have stuff about how amazing they are written into it.
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@Glomoro Actually
My views come from how the character archetype usually behaves in fantasy stories, and their actual usefulness in combat in a world that is not all black and while.
Paladins are ultra specialized, their powers are usually geared to dealing with enemies that are their direct opposites.
Which means that in a world of gray, they are actually pretty much useless against many enemies.
Just like how in Dragon Ball the Genki Dama is absolutely useless against the Androids 16, 17 and 18 or any of the Z fighters. Because it's an ability made to be used against evil and only evil.
An example of this is D&D, where you have many enemies that a Paladin can deal with properly and many enemies in which his abilities does literally nothing, making him into a weaker Fighter.
So, depending on the setting a good Paladin build could be high tier, or literally bottom tier.
The reason for that is because Paladins are not an actual "class" in most fantasy world's, you don't have an army of trained paladins.
Paladins are usually individuals chosen by a Deity or another powerful being to fulfill a specific purpose.
They are lent power to fulfill that purpose, they don't usually obtain it on their own.
Even in the setting of Warcraft(and not World of Warcraft).
Paladins were not that powerful, Arthas only changed sides because he saw the limitations of his powers.
And in his blind vengeance, he simply could not accept those limitations and try to work with what he had. Instead, he discarded his paladin powers and got what he thought was a superior power to fulfil his wishes.
My views come from how the character archetype usually behaves in fantasy stories, and their actual usefulness in combat in a world that is not all black and while.
Paladins are ultra specialized, their powers are usually geared to dealing with enemies that are their direct opposites.
Which means that in a world of gray, they are actually pretty much useless against many enemies.
Just like how in Dragon Ball the Genki Dama is absolutely useless against the Androids 16, 17 and 18 or any of the Z fighters. Because it's an ability made to be used against evil and only evil.
An example of this is D&D, where you have many enemies that a Paladin can deal with properly and many enemies in which his abilities does literally nothing, making him into a weaker Fighter.
So, depending on the setting a good Paladin build could be high tier, or literally bottom tier.
The reason for that is because Paladins are not an actual "class" in most fantasy world's, you don't have an army of trained paladins.
Paladins are usually individuals chosen by a Deity or another powerful being to fulfill a specific purpose.
They are lent power to fulfill that purpose, they don't usually obtain it on their own.
Even in the setting of Warcraft(and not World of Warcraft).
Paladins were not that powerful, Arthas only changed sides because he saw the limitations of his powers.
And in his blind vengeance, he simply could not accept those limitations and try to work with what he had. Instead, he discarded his paladin powers and got what he thought was a superior power to fulfil his wishes.
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@BloodySorcerer Your examples aren't really that great. DBZ, just because one ability is less or ineffective against the androids doesn't mean everyone was suddenly incapable of fighting them. They got stronger and just brute forced the matter, as they always do in that series because the spirit bomb is literally useless 90% of the time it's used anyway, even against evil people. Vegeta survived it, Frieza survived it. It finally actually did something useful for once, at the end of the original run. But that feels more like Toriyama realized the damn thing was never useful and wanted it to go out on a bang than anything else, honestly.
D&D, smite evil and such might not work against good and neutral characters, but paladins over there have more abilities than that anyway. A fallen paladin is a weaker fighter because they lost all their powers, not just the ones geared towards fighting evil or what not (some of them use smite chaos and such instead off the top of my head), a normal paladin is somewhere between fighter and cleric. They have access to spells and other abilities that are much more general in use, like buffs that could even give them an edge over a fighter. They also get holy avenger swords, which are most effective against stuff like the undead/evil enemies, but are also just pretty decent magic weapons aside from that (if your DM either used a relatively normal magic level in their world, or adjusted the things properly for a world with like +10 weapons falling out of random trees).
Whether paladins are individuals or entire orders is a matter for particular settings. Even whether they're given the power or can obtain it themselves is probably left up to the "Our X Are Different" trope family, that gives us quite a lot of variety in anything from dragons to regular old humans.
As for Arthas, that was about him falling to temptation to beings on the dark side, not really about the powers he got for that being all that much better. Sure he had limitations, he was a mortal. Everyone else had that same problem with any of their abilities, not just the paladins. It's also not as if he achieved absolute victory instantly after obtaining his new powers. He caused some damage and then fell into a new spot in the power balance.
A lot of that gets super subjective based on the mechanics of the setting and how they might be adjusted, but again my original point remains. The story component of any of those examples still considers any of what we're talking about here useful and probably powerful relative to their own settings.
D&D, smite evil and such might not work against good and neutral characters, but paladins over there have more abilities than that anyway. A fallen paladin is a weaker fighter because they lost all their powers, not just the ones geared towards fighting evil or what not (some of them use smite chaos and such instead off the top of my head), a normal paladin is somewhere between fighter and cleric. They have access to spells and other abilities that are much more general in use, like buffs that could even give them an edge over a fighter. They also get holy avenger swords, which are most effective against stuff like the undead/evil enemies, but are also just pretty decent magic weapons aside from that (if your DM either used a relatively normal magic level in their world, or adjusted the things properly for a world with like +10 weapons falling out of random trees).
Whether paladins are individuals or entire orders is a matter for particular settings. Even whether they're given the power or can obtain it themselves is probably left up to the "Our X Are Different" trope family, that gives us quite a lot of variety in anything from dragons to regular old humans.
As for Arthas, that was about him falling to temptation to beings on the dark side, not really about the powers he got for that being all that much better. Sure he had limitations, he was a mortal. Everyone else had that same problem with any of their abilities, not just the paladins. It's also not as if he achieved absolute victory instantly after obtaining his new powers. He caused some damage and then fell into a new spot in the power balance.
A lot of that gets super subjective based on the mechanics of the setting and how they might be adjusted, but again my original point remains. The story component of any of those examples still considers any of what we're talking about here useful and probably powerful relative to their own settings.
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@Glomoro no the examples are perfect, I only used Genki Dama as an example not because Goku becomes useless when it doesn't work, but because Paladins are THE Genki Dama. It's a skill that becomes useless against certain people. Meaning if enemies are not evil not a single one of his abilities work against them.
"D&D, smite evil and such might not work against good and neutral characters, but paladins over there have more abilities than that anyway." All his abilities are geared towards fighting evil or negative energy, aside from these abilities he has spells but all his spells are extremely limited in usage and the ones that are not are merely support spells that onl serves a purpose when the party cleric has used all of his. His healing is also no substitute for a Cleric, like I said the guy is ultra specialized. Just pick the Monsters Handbook and you'll see that most monsters are neutral in nature, and the ones that are evil, aside from demons and advanced undead, most of them don't even require a paladin to be dealt with. Worse, if you're playing a political campaign, this is pretty much guaranteed to make your party's paladin have a mental breakdown, and question the meaning of his existence.
"As for Arthas, that was about him falling to temptation to beings on the dark side, not really about the powers he got for that being all that much better. Sure he had limitations, he was a mortal. Everyone else had that same problem with any of their abilities, not just the paladins. It's also not as if he achieved absolute victory instantly after obtaining his new powers. He caused some damage and then fell into a new spot in the power balance."
He defeated his master with the new powers, he got his ass kicked by a demon when he was still a paladin. Illidan who didn't even have a special class kicked the ass of the same demon even before having the power to kill it permanently. Not only that every other character managed to accomplish way more than Paladin Arthas and his master.
Even on stories where Paladins are respected they are still a specialized class. The only story about Paladins that doesn't share these traits is not a story of a holy warrior, but a normal band of knights. Which is why I'll always say that I don't get where people got this Idea that Paladins are a strong class.
"D&D, smite evil and such might not work against good and neutral characters, but paladins over there have more abilities than that anyway." All his abilities are geared towards fighting evil or negative energy, aside from these abilities he has spells but all his spells are extremely limited in usage and the ones that are not are merely support spells that onl serves a purpose when the party cleric has used all of his. His healing is also no substitute for a Cleric, like I said the guy is ultra specialized. Just pick the Monsters Handbook and you'll see that most monsters are neutral in nature, and the ones that are evil, aside from demons and advanced undead, most of them don't even require a paladin to be dealt with. Worse, if you're playing a political campaign, this is pretty much guaranteed to make your party's paladin have a mental breakdown, and question the meaning of his existence.
"As for Arthas, that was about him falling to temptation to beings on the dark side, not really about the powers he got for that being all that much better. Sure he had limitations, he was a mortal. Everyone else had that same problem with any of their abilities, not just the paladins. It's also not as if he achieved absolute victory instantly after obtaining his new powers. He caused some damage and then fell into a new spot in the power balance."
He defeated his master with the new powers, he got his ass kicked by a demon when he was still a paladin. Illidan who didn't even have a special class kicked the ass of the same demon even before having the power to kill it permanently. Not only that every other character managed to accomplish way more than Paladin Arthas and his master.
Even on stories where Paladins are respected they are still a specialized class. The only story about Paladins that doesn't share these traits is not a story of a holy warrior, but a normal band of knights. Which is why I'll always say that I don't get where people got this Idea that Paladins are a strong class.
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@BloodySorcerer You're still thinking too much about the mechanics behind stuff vs the story of the class. You even got me doing it to reply to you before just to be able to counter your points. You're thinking too much in terms of the game abilities and not how the character is used in a story. Even if paladins are most suited to fighting evil and the undead, which I never disagreed with in the first place, that doesn't make them ineffective everywhere else. In a story, the paladin is not an "inferior" fighter or "lesser" to a cleric, they're often equal to or greater than either as the story demands. They're the champions of the people, defenders of the weak. That's their story hook. Whether they're fighting a lich in a dungeon, or defending a civilian from bandits. They're the knights in shining armor, and their powers granted by the divine help them in either event.
Your Arthas example was the closest to depending on the story instead of mechanics, but again that wasn't a story about a paladin succeeding in the first place. It was supposed to be about his fall. Which sets the stage for other champions to rise against him, because now he's pretty much become what he originally set out to fight.
I also forgot something several times now so I'm doing something about it. Here's another story I know of besides this and besides WoW or even FFIV where paladin is "considered a good class," as per your original post here. https://mangadex.org/title/14571/shen-yin-wang-zuo Another story by that Soul Land author, main characters are all pretty heavily based on video game classes with the male lead being a paladin himself. https://mangadex.org/title/24651/saihate-no-paladin Here's another that I might actually recommend, since that manhua isn't honestly my favorite thing. These were just some offhand examples I remember available on this site alone that answer to your original point. There's bound to be plenty more out there, because again a paladin is just your basic knight in shining armor and with things influenced by games all the time nowadays, paladins probably see plenty of use as the headliners in all sorts of stories because plenty of people like the character archetype.
Your Arthas example was the closest to depending on the story instead of mechanics, but again that wasn't a story about a paladin succeeding in the first place. It was supposed to be about his fall. Which sets the stage for other champions to rise against him, because now he's pretty much become what he originally set out to fight.
I also forgot something several times now so I'm doing something about it. Here's another story I know of besides this and besides WoW or even FFIV where paladin is "considered a good class," as per your original post here. https://mangadex.org/title/14571/shen-yin-wang-zuo Another story by that Soul Land author, main characters are all pretty heavily based on video game classes with the male lead being a paladin himself. https://mangadex.org/title/24651/saihate-no-paladin Here's another that I might actually recommend, since that manhua isn't honestly my favorite thing. These were just some offhand examples I remember available on this site alone that answer to your original point. There's bound to be plenty more out there, because again a paladin is just your basic knight in shining armor and with things influenced by games all the time nowadays, paladins probably see plenty of use as the headliners in all sorts of stories because plenty of people like the character archetype.
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@Glomoro the problem with Saihate no Paladin is that MC is not an actual paladin he is a warrior "priest", trained as a warrior and a mage, who just so happens to preach about his goddess(which is why he is considered a priest). The term paladin is only used figuratively.
AS for the story against mechanics, it's important to call out on a paladin's mechanics because without them you don't have a paladin. Haru Glory could be considered a paladin given that he uses a "holy" jewel as the source of his powers, but without that jewel he is nothing special, he can win against some opponents but would probably lose against Gale if both didn't have access to their powers. And that is where my criticism comes from. Paladins do depend on tehir powers, more often than not that power is what separates them from others. Which is why it is indeed possible to criticize them for being so specialized against specific opponents. In modern stories this has become a bit rare, but in many stories the MC who is usually a paladin without the class name, is usually not even the strongest warrior or mage of his team. For example One piece loves to highlight Luffy, but at multiple times it actually becomes difficult to see him as the most powerful there, Zoro does a lot of things Luffy hasn't shown to be able to do, and before he became a Joke so did Sanji. To this day I still believe that Zoro could've defeated several of the main enemies of each arc if he had arrived first. Possibly even faster than Luffy.
AS for the story against mechanics, it's important to call out on a paladin's mechanics because without them you don't have a paladin. Haru Glory could be considered a paladin given that he uses a "holy" jewel as the source of his powers, but without that jewel he is nothing special, he can win against some opponents but would probably lose against Gale if both didn't have access to their powers. And that is where my criticism comes from. Paladins do depend on tehir powers, more often than not that power is what separates them from others. Which is why it is indeed possible to criticize them for being so specialized against specific opponents. In modern stories this has become a bit rare, but in many stories the MC who is usually a paladin without the class name, is usually not even the strongest warrior or mage of his team. For example One piece loves to highlight Luffy, but at multiple times it actually becomes difficult to see him as the most powerful there, Zoro does a lot of things Luffy hasn't shown to be able to do, and before he became a Joke so did Sanji. To this day I still believe that Zoro could've defeated several of the main enemies of each arc if he had arrived first. Possibly even faster than Luffy.
