Boku ga Watashi ni Naru Tame ni - Vol. 1 Ch. 6 - Episode 6

[zips]

@sonaldo so like

A. why does this affect whether someone should have ID that doesn’t constantly out them to bosses, landlords, random cops, bar staff etc

B. trans people aren’t generally hype about this scenario either, because the actual “what if” is “probably getting the shit kicked out of you regardless of what your ID says”

C. and, well, what if? what if i walk into a shop with a pocket knife? what if i walk into a park carrying bleach? what if i walk into a sports goods shop carrying a six pack of beer? there’s so much implication here that a dick is a weapon that somehow will absolutely be used, which is extremely not the case. It’s a dick, the girl it’s attached to absolutely doesn’t want attention drawn to it, so why act like it’s an implicit threat more than the fingers on the lady next to her?

 

[Sonaldo]

@zips
A. Try thinking about the society as a whole please and how it affects them instead of minority. I'm not saying the minority troubles are unimportant, just stating why the law caters more towards society in the first place and the fact that it's changing towards the minority is a good thing and should be supported

B. Weird how you "actual situation" still have uses the word probably. The society's changing and sure a lot are still not accepting the existence of trans people but some are and the changes in law reflect them. So why not support it?

C. So you're saying that a existence of a dick is not important to trans people? Even though seeing one in a FEMALE occupied place might cause discomfort to other in the place? Does the trans person right outweighs the rights of others? Plus if those things aren't important, why does an even smaller thing like misgendering someone are given such a big focus?

I'm sorry if you feel offended by this questions, just really curious about the whole thing in general.

 

[Sonaldo]

@kajarainbow
I'm sure that gender is more than what you have between the legs but still people are gonna look at that first to identify someone gender, especially in a very intimate place like a changing room or toilet.

Of course not everyone is not able to accept the existence of trans people the same way not all trans people are not willing to undergoes surgery. And imagine the mental distress of someone like that when they saw someone who apparently looks like a female but still having a dick. Remember, this kind of people still makes up the majority of society and the laws need to appease them first. So to see it change to appease trans while also taking the majority into consideration should be supported so that this can be the founding blocks for future change instead of ridiculing it by calling it "eugenics".

 

[zips]

@Sonaldo i dunno man i just wanna go about my daily life without wearing an armband with a pink triangle on it, but I’ll try to consider how not wearing my pink triangle makes everyone feel

 

[Sonaldo]

@zips
See? First it was eugenics and now it's nazi? What the heck dude? Next you're gonna call me transphobic? Seriously dude. Get a grip. This is why LGBT movement are ridiculed. Considering your rights to be of higher values than others are terrible in the first place and no matter how much trans people wants to live their live normally, certain people doesn't accept their existence and until that problem is fixed, their rights to live comfortably in society cannot be denied. And denying their rights are not the way to make them accept trans people. Proper education and information is.

 

[zips]

yo i’m just saying i wanna go about my daily life without my paperwork informing everyone of my minority status.

Yeah I fucking consider my right to exist in society normally to override other people’s right to live in a society without me, do you have brain damage

 

[BCS]

@ElBichoRaro the ID has no field for martial status or pregnancy, because both are useless for identification purposes. Gender isn't. The rest of your post has nothing to do with the topic at hand; hope you at least felt better after venting.

 

[kajarainbow]

@Sonaldo Honestly, those people who experience distress when they see a woman with a dick? They need to get over themselves. Consider your words and consider how they might apply to, say, people feeling distress about seeing black people in the same dressing room as them. Does that mean black people shouldn't enter dressing rooms? In this case, the black person's right to exist as themselves definitively overrides the offended person's right to not encounter a situation that offends them. The same is true for trans people.

tl;dr Being able to live your life without harassment is a far more important right than the right to never see something that offends you.

 

[Sonaldo]

@kajarainbow
It's not they see woman with a dick that's causing them distress. It's the fact that it's occurring in a WOMAN changing room. I imagine you're happy to have a person implied to be a male using a ladies toilet? And sorry to say this but your example regarding black people is kinda stupid. And how is having an id and reproductive organ that confirms your a female harassment?

And lastly, imagine if I said this. Those people who get offended when we misgender them, they need to get over it.

 

[Sonaldo]

@zips
Having an id that provides accurate information about someone is the "normal" way to exist in society. And please dont resort to insult. If normal people needs to have an id, why does trans people doesn't need to have one? And no one is trying to exclude trans people in society with this law. Like come on dude. Stop and think for a second.

 

[kajarainbow]

@Sonaldo Uh, We already have IDs. They say female or male (and in some locations there's an option for neither, which nonbinary people really appreciate). That's all the information people really need. Anything else isn't their business. Do you think you should be required to put your sexual orientation or your favorite food or whatever on your ID? That's similarly irrelevant.

My ID says I'm female. I haven't had surgery, but I'm unreservedly female. It is accurate information. You seem to be implying that transgender women aren't really women and transgender men aren't really men, or if they're women and men it comes with caveats and conditions? You do understand that a big reason for depression and other mental health problems for trans people is others not accepting their gender? Like, there've been many, many studies on this and the most effective treatment for trans mental health has been unconditional acceptance and help in any changes they need to make to their lives and bodies. Placing conditions results in many transgender people being left out to suffer from mental health problems.

Again, I walk into a changing room. I've had HRT, I look female in every day except for my penis. Someone freaks out. But I'm not doing it to fuck with them. I just want to use whatever the changing room is a prelude to (like say I just want to use a pool). My intent is completely innocent. Hell, if the changing room has private changing booths, I'll use them. I vastly prefer those. I don't want to freak people out. But I'm not walking into a man's changing room as I am. Again, I look completely female except for that one thing. I have breasts and everything.

I'm basically entering that changing room devoid of malicious intent. I just want to do the usual business one does in a changing room, which is get changed. Not only that, I want to do it with the least amount of fuss, which is why as stated before I'll use private booths if they're there. I use women's restrooms all the time and no one is harmed. No one notices, because each toilet is screened off for privacy. No one wants to see me doing my business and I don't want to see anyone doing their business.

Now, what would you have me do? Would you have me just not go to that pool at all? Because fuck no I'm not using the men's changing room, not looking like I do. And let's go with the assumption of every single transgender people getting surgery eventually. What're they supposed to in terms of changing rooms and bathrooms before they get surgery? By the point they get surgery, they've already underwent extensive HRT, changing how they look. Now eliminate that assumption of everyone getting surgery and the "surgery or git out" policy looks more spotty. Some can't afford surgery. Some can't get it for health reasons. Some just don't need it, and if a major operation isn't necessary, you don't do it just because. And so on.

I used the black person comparison very deliberately. I know what it means, what it implies. What black people went through in my country, transgender people are going through right now. Complete with the hysteria about us raping and abusing other women. That is a real thing some people in my country are saying, that if we're allowed to use the bathroom we identify with we'll abuse other women.

Also look at what you said. You agreed that gender doesn't equal what's between your legs, but then you say this: "It's the fact that it's occurring in a WOMAN changing room. I imagine you're happy to have a person implied to be a male using a ladies toilet?"

That is very much judging someone by what's between their legs.

 

[kajarainbow]

@Sonaldo Not to mention transgender men. They get HRT that make them look masculine. Some even grow beards. Not only that, but they have no truly effective, fully functional surgical options right now. Now imagine those very masculine looking men being forced to use the women's changing room just because they have vaginas instead of penises. Don't you think that'd be even worse?

Basically, if I can't use the women's room because I have a penis and the men's room because I look feminine, where am I supposed to go? The same for transgender men not being able to use the men's room.

That situation is very much people's rights to not see things that offend their sensibilities overruling our rights to go about our lives in a normal fashion. You complained about the latter overruling the former, but isn't the former overruling the latter far worse?

 

[zips]

genius here doesn’t get that if your ID has the wrong gender people won’t believe it’s your ID, and if they do, they’ll be shitty to you, and either way in a world with trans people it’s kind of a ridiculous thing to put on the documents that let you get loans, housing, schooling...

edit:
ID documents exist and work because they do three things, right?
1. be official enough you know they’re real
2. say enough about you to prove it’s your ID
3. prove stuff about you given it’s your ID

Gender is group 2. So if you don’t match what the ID says, it doesn’t work as your ID. For some reason some people think it’s group 3, because they need ID to, what, be informative about your junk? To... the bank, I guess? Like in what world do you need to carry a document that serves as proof of genitals unless you’re trying to exclude trans people?

 

[Sonaldo]

@kajarainbow
You said it's irrelevant? Then why the need to change them in the first place? Why not leave it as it is? Using you as an example, why would you change your gender from male to female in your id if it's irrelevant?

And regarding the acceptance of trans people only with caveat and conditions, of course we need those terms to prove their claims. I mean if that wasn't the case, people would just change their gender in a whim. Today I'm a male, tomorrow female. Wouldn't that ridicule real trans people? And sure trans people were not accepted before but now they are with these conditions and caveats as to not allow people to ridicule them in the first place. Unconditional acceptance is hard to achieve. Some people will judge. But I said so many times, society is starting to change and this law is the beginning of it. But instead of supporting it, you despised it and claimed it eugenics and excluding. Wouldn't this make future changes hard to achieve if you guys are this fickle? Rome wasn't built in a day.

And I cant comment on the surgery part since I'm not knowledgeable enough on that issue. But judging people based on what between their legs? Of course I'll do that if someone I know nothing about suddenly walked in a private space that allows people to show their genitals like a changing room. How else am I supposed to judge them? Ask them out for lunch?

Lastly, I'm genuinely curious about this so please dont insult me or anything. Why doesn't all trans people undergoes the sex reversal surgery? Financial reason is understandable. But if they can why wouldn't they? And if they can't why does society needs to bend over to accept their claims? Shouldn't they just accept their condition as untreatable and live in society as their birth gender? Sure it will cause them mental issues but wont treating and controlling those mental issues easier than asking the society to bend over?

 

[Sonaldo]

@zips
I really cant understand what you're talking about here dumbass so I'll just answer 1 thing.
"Like in what world do you need to carry a document that serves as proof of genitals unless you’re trying to exclude trans people?"
Idk, maybe in a world where crime exists. And you're oversimplifying things here genius. It doesn't specify your genitals dumbass. It specify your sex which is directly related to your gender. This is particularly useful in law related stuff. It can serve as an evidence during trial. Like seriously, you cant think of an instance where the proof of your sex is important in daily life? How dumb can you get? Calling people genius when all you need to do is look at the mirror.

 

[zips]

getting all red and angry on line here eh

 

[kajarainbow]

@Sonaldo Okay, it looks like you don't know certain things about transgender people, so I can see where you think your argument is reasonable. And, it really is reasonable based on the premises you're going off. It's just that those premises happen to be incorrect because you don't know some things about us.

Okay, so gender dysphoria. The standard treatment in places I'd consider to have a better take on transgender issues is to do whatever is needed to alleviate that. The thing is, for transgender people that varies. For example, our manga author here needed the surgery in addition to HRT and changing her documentation and everything else to feel more fully herself. I have a friend for who even that wasn't completely enough, even if it did help--she basically feels bad about her body not being small and cute, things like that. But the medical technology to fix that doesn't exist yet and this feeling is something she can live with, which wouldn't have been the case with not having done all she did to change her body and herself.

And there're some for which it takes fewer steps to reach a point where they are no longer suffering from gender-related depression and other issues. For, example me. What it took was getting HRT to change my body to look more feminine and then changing all my documentation, including ID, to reflect my true identity. Once I did all that, I felt pretty much fine about myself. Just being able to live as a woman was enough. For me the surgery is unnecessary to alleviate my gender dysphoria. And reasonable doctors pretty much agree you don't do unnecessary surgery, particularly a major operation like replacing your genitals. After all, every surgery comes with its share of health risks and other possible consequences, including death if things go really, really wrong.

Haven't you heard the phrase used in the medical field, "First do no harm?" It essentially refers to the fact that medical interventions come with their own risks and it's better to do nothing if the risks are worse than the benefits. For me that definitely applies when it comes to the surgery. For people who need the surgery, it can be a literal life changer and worth doing. For me, it's not that.

So why do I change my ID and other documentation? Because not doing so causes me dysphoria. It's that simple. Having an ID that reflects my old name and an incorrect gender, that's a sore reminder of my old self who was stuck living a life she didn't want to lead.

Furthermore, transgender people are more varied and weird than you think. Those stories about SRS don't always fully reflect that--they're about people who get SRS, which isn't every trans person. Some trans people fall into no neat gender category (the nonbinary folks). Some have their feelings of gender change frequently. And so on. In short, human psychology is complicated.

So, yes, I don't think IDs should reflect the physical reality. Because that doesn't always reflect what's going on in the head. And I feel what's going on the head is more important than what's going on between the legs. Genitals have sensations, but they don't have emotions themselves. They don't experience suffering, only the physical sensation of pain. Human brains are what feel suffering, and forcing IDs to reflect what's between people's legs rather than what's in their brains can cause that suffering, whether it is from dysphoria or from being fired for ones gender, or beat up, all of which are real things that happen to transgender people in many places. Some even get murdered.

Finally, gender identity? It isn't something decided trivially, you know. Many people would not want to even pretend to be a gender they aren't. And if someone did pretend for the sake of performing a crime (a rather rare thing to happen), they can just be tried for that crime. We have identity fraud as a crime already, you know. In short, people can (hypothetically) use gender for evil, yes, but they already use many other things for evil. Like, just because someone can pick up a thing and carry it out of the store without paying for it, is it reasonable to outright forbid picking up things? Plus criminals break the law, you know. That's a thing they'll do. Some of them have fake IDs, even, so forcing IDs to match what's between your legs doesn't even really do anything but make it harder for non-criminal transgender people who are just trying to live as themselves. It's like DRM that makes life harder for legitimate customers while not stopping pirates who just download hacked versions of that software with the DRM removed.

Also, your concern over ridiculing trans people is understandable but misplaced. The thing is, us transgender people have a term for narrow, rigid definitions of who is a legitimate transgender person: gatekeeping. Medical gatekeeping can keep legitimately trans people from receiving what is in many cases literally life-saving mental health care and other medical procedures as necessary. There've been cases where trans people struggled to get medical care they needed because they didn't meet certain stereotypes of being transgender, or certain stereotypes of femininity or masculinity. And denial of that medical care can indirectly kill via despair. In short, overly limiting definitions of transgender people kills far more of them than more loose definitions. And I'm far more concerned with the lives of trans people, including my friends, than some vague notion of being 'ridiculed'.

I've only been making an effort to type all of this because I think you mean well and are trying to do the right thing. I think you can be reached. @zips here has been taking an understandably more angry approach because, honestly, transgender people already receive a lot of bullshit and the approach you are taking just leads to more of that bullshit to us, however well-intended it is. In short, I'm asking you to please listen to us actual trans people.

 

[kajarainbow]

@Sonaldo Furthermore I'll note that the approach taken by Japan was one that was taken in my country but is increasingly being abandoned because those rigid standards do real harm to us trans people.

 

[Sonaldo]

@kajarainbow
Thanks for the answer dude. Really informative and well put. Looking forward for more of your comments in later chapters.

 

[zips]

yeah that’s a lot more charitable than I can be, I’ve spent my twenties explaining to people that I’m not actually a monster and it’s a little tiring