Boku no Kokoro no Yabai Yatsu - Vol. 4 Ch. 57 - I Want Her to Know Me

[Faryshta]

@mgRdr it was not stablished that he is actually reading it and it doesn't show him actively engaging on what he is supposed to like. Just turning pages is not a show of how passionate he is about something.

That's quite a major point that he has no friends with whom he could talk about it.

He has Yamada and it took him 56 chapters to tell her about any of his hobbies and it took her 56 chapters for her to ask. In chronological time I think it has been almost a year since they meet.

Does anyone who, say, likes Tolkien books, have to attend conventions or roleplay as Gandalf?

Nice strawman.

And into the bin goes your "show don't tell" rant.

You don't understand what 'tell' and 'show' means. 2 characters having a conversation about something they are passionate is 'show', a character turning pages of a book with a generic title like 'horrible crimes' is 'tell'.

If it was a manga about a struggling writer and a novice actress

Did you missed the chapters where we actually see Yamada struggling as an actress?

@Cmiitjinze yeah he probably has some passions and life goals but we have never see them.

 

[Shareazu]

@deCarabasHJ Ah sorry, i misunderstood

 

[mgRdr]

@Faryshta

it was not stablished that he is actually reading it and it doesn't show him actively engaging on what he is supposed to like. Just turning pages is not a show of how passionate he is about something.

Next time I visit a library, I'll just assume that people there are just showing off their page-flipping skills

He has Yamada

Would you start talking to your potential girlfirend about famous murderers, knowing that she does not care about this disgusting topic in the first place?

Nice strawman.

I am glad you like it

You don't understand what 'tell' and 'show' means

I do understand that learning magic words "show don't tell" makes people think that saying them would somehow universally substitute for valid criticism in any given case.

2 characters having a conversation about something they are passionate

There are no two characters who are passionate about murderbooks - there's only Ichi.

a character turning pages of a book with a generic title like 'horrible crimes'

Is a good "show" which shows us that the character is a huge edgelord, who, for whatever reasons and purposes, have chosen to flip pages of exactly that kind of book.

Did you missed the chapters where we actually see Yamada struggling as an actress?

And these "struggles" are mostly tangential to the plot of manga. I'll say it again - neither Yamada's modeling nor Ichi's hobbies are the focus of this manga

 

[Shareazu]

@mgRdr i agree, that's not the focus of the manga. The focus is their interaction with each other and personal growth. There's not much reason to dwell on the details too much, as it'd potentially make the story unecessarily convoluted, probably. The audience already knows enough to go with the information provided. Details can be introduced in the long run, but starting with too much would slow the pace of the story, i think.

 

[Cmiitjinze]

@Faryshta I think a specific area of Ichikawa's development can still be shown pretty well through his ambitions and goals if they do show themselves. The primary development is definitely Ichikawa and Yamada's relationship growing into romantic feelings, but I do think part of Ichikawa's personal development, as hinted by this chapter, comes from a feeling of inferiority or abnormality that became just what you see from Ichikawa from the start of BokuYaba. Especially in contrast to Yamada's already-realized goals as a more "normal" individual, their relationship developing is a catalyst for Ichikawa to really realize himself on a deeper level, and perhaps find happiness from that.

As for show and tell in manga, I can't say I agree (I know it's not a comment directed at me, but just figured I'd give some input.) A major area that I think manga has an advantage over solely written works like LNs comes from the visual component offering ways to convey information to the reader purely from art. Rather than writing about a character's visual appearance through the narration, a manga can simply show what the character looks like, what a character is doing, and can much more subtly hint at certain emotions that words can express in some ways. Ichikawa reading his "Big Stinky Murder" books is a way of showing his interests to us very naturally. In the same way, perhaps that interest coming up in a conversation is also allowing us to learn about someone in, again, a natural way, so long as it's not too blatant in word choice. In that sense, "telling" us about Ichikawa's interests would be something more akin to a character sheet in a volume release or an inner monologue directed at the reader as either an alternative to or in addition to a visual component. The composition could make things a bit more blatant or forced, like having two panels show not only Ichikawa reading a book, but also zoom in on the book to emphasize. An important detail in effectively and naturally showing the reader information visually is that the mangaka trusts the reader to pick up on details presented not as the sole, direct focus.

From what I recall, chapter one opens on the singular panel of Ichikawa with his book, and I feel like it's presented very honestly. Admittedly, his inner thoughts visualized for us do emphasize that detail almost to the point of being redundant, but I think it's important in how it shows Ichikawa's thoughts begin to transition throughout the story.

 

[Faryshta]

@mgRdr

Next time I visit a library, I'll just assume that people there are just showing off their page-flipping skills

Have we ever seen him going to a library to get a different book? For all we know he is an edgy teen pretending to read the same book. Seriously if there had been a chapter showing him going to library and excited about some new book it would have been a good 'show' but since it never happened you are just proving my point.

Would you start talking to your potential girlfirend about famous murderers, knowing that she does not care about this disgusting topic in the first place?

After almost a year he could have asked "what do you think about X topic?" or she could have asked "what is that book you are always flipping?"

I do understand that learning magic words "show don't tell"

Have you tried to google that concept? I didn't made it up in case you were wondering.

There are no two characters who are passionate about murderbooks

There are not 2 characters passionate about acting or modeling yet we see Yamada talkingabout that subject with many people. Thats because she is passionate about it.

s a good "show"

Again study what "show don't tell" means.

And these "struggles" are mostly tangential to the plot of manga

So?

@Cmiitjinze thats a very good theory but again we haven't been shown any of that so its just your conjecture since the author could still not write any of that down the line.

 

[adt141]

When it comes to "show, don't tell" the panel where his mom asks if he wants udon is great for showing there's no pressure or disappointed expectations coming from his family; his sense of aimlessness or failure comes only from himself if right after failing his mom only wants to get him a treat to make him feel better.

 

[z3c9]

I've read this chapter like four times today.

 

[mgRdr]

@Faryshta

Have we ever seen him going to a library to get a different book?

Chapter 5 - he goes to a book store and buys a murderbook (sorry, that's not a library, but I hope it counts). The most frequented location of the manga is the school library, and he changes books he reads throught the manga, and at least some of them are guro novels

After almost a year

The manga started at the beginning of Autumn, and it's barely a new year.

he could have asked

Only at this chapter he got confident enough in their relationship to talk about his freaky hobby, and that's kinda a plot point.

or she could have asked "what is that book you are always flipping?"

She can read the title from the cover herself and she most likely does not care.

There are not 2 characters passionate about acting or modeling yet we see Yamada talkingabout that subject with many people

She has friends in the first place, unlike Ichi; modeling and acting are potentially interesting topics to discuss among girls, and even her friends are kinda fed up with her boasting about it.

Thats because she is passionate about it.

That's because she likes boasting about being relatively popular compared to her peers.

s a good "show"


Again study what "show don't tell" means.

Are you saying that the first panel does not show us that Ichi is a huge edgelord?

show don't tell

I've seen it enough times when from all the literary critic tools people who only know of "show don't tell" mantra try to apply it to whatever plot point they don't like, twisting it to fit their narrative to the point of it not making any sense. In this particularly egregious case, we see it flipped on it's head, so Ichi proclaiming that he likes murderbooks becomes "show", while the visual cue of him literaly engaging in his hobby somehow becomes "tell".

 

[Faryshta]

@mgRdr I checked chapter 5. Yes he indeed goes to a library and its non consequential, he spends much more time buying a magazine and when he gets home he only focus on his magazine. Its never shown or implied he buys a murderbook so you are just making shit up.

I can't find where you got that the series started in autumn but lets believe it. Still you would believe that the topic of "what are you reading?" would come up whithin a week of interaction.

And you are contradicting yourself with the hobby and the first chapter. The very first chapter Yamada and MC cross eyes while he was 'reading' a murder book so she already knew about that hobby from chapter 1.

Doesn't matter if she likes boasting, thats also a trait that makes Yamada unique and something she is passionate about (herself). Again the male lead is never shown doing any of that.

And yet you still don't know what "show don't tell" means, since you don't understand it you project your ignorance in everyone who has disagreed with you.

 

[adam120]

This is my favorite manga. Hits really close to home. Thanks a lot for the translations.

 

[mgRdr]

@Faryshta

so you are just making shit up

Spoiler

I don't know what the book title says, and I am not gonna bother trying to translate it, but the cover looks to me like that of a murderbook

he only focus on his magazine

Well of course, because the magazine with Yamada is more important and interesting to him than a murderbook.

I can't find where you got that the series started in autumn but lets believe it

That's my assumption actually, but: [ol]
The clothing gradually gets warmer
The school festival is just in 10 chapters into the manga
No mention of summer break, and that would have been two months worth of content[/ol]

Still you would believe that the topic of "what are you reading?" would come up whithin a week of interaction

Yamada: "Whatcha reading?"
Ichi: an answer consisting mostly of interjections and guttural noises cuz he's too conscious about his hobby
That's how this conversation would have probably looked, not something that could cue us in on how he passionate about this, and not exactly something important to the plot, so no point in having it in manga
Also, it took him like 20 chapters to start having proper conversations with Yamada, no way in hell Yamada could have approached him closely enough to ask him a question like that in just a week

And you are contradicting yourself with the hobby and the first chapter

What is the contradiction? You left out all relevant quotes, so I don't know what you mean

boasting

unique

It is not uncommon for actors/singers/models to be boastful about their occupation, so I don't see how that makes her unique. Again, not even touching what you try to pass off as a definition of personality.

Again the male lead is never shown doing any of that

Well, he's not an actor or a model

"show don't tell"

"Show don't tell" principle exisits so that we do not need to take the authors word for granted - we come to the conclusions ourselves by analyzing whatever the cues author have left. A character saying "he's such an edgelord" needs validation, meanwhile us looking at Ichi with a murderbook allows us to immediately conclude this, because we trust what we see ourselves more than we trust what others tell us. Norio did not tell us that Ichi's passion is murderbooks, we don't need to take it for granted, we're free to come to this conclusion by observing him throught the manga, and we're as free to interprete it differently - him being just a showoff without any actual passion for edgy literature could also work for his character. There's no "show don't tell" because there's no "tell" from the author.

 

[Faryshta]

@mgRdr You ar right, I completely missed that part even on reread, it dedicates a really small panel to a book title and the rest to Yamada, which show how passionate and interested is about each subject.

Well of course, because the magazine with Yamada is more important and interesting to him than a murderbook.

So you just proved my point. A girl he haven't even had a proper conversation with is more important than his supposed passion. Well we agree on here so.

The next thing you rant is about what you suppose would happen if Yamada ask him about his books. That is just your conjecture and not worth addressing since the author didn't show anything of it.

And you keep trying to make it look as if I am skeptical that the male lead is an edgelord. I am saying that "edgelord" is not something that makes him unique or show any actual personality anymore than saying "tsundere". Its just a label which is exactly why its a lazy writting tool and the author needs to show what he actually is passionate about and how.

 

[Haydrion101]

Wow, unnecessary drama in a mangadex comment section. Color me shocked.

 

[mgRdr]

@Faryshta

A girl he haven't even had a proper conversation with likes (lets not gloss over the most important factor here) is more important than his supposed passion. Well we agree on here so.

You're reading the wrong manga if you expect this not to be true. Again, this is not a manga about an edgelord and his passion for murderbooks and also there's some useless thot somewhere in the background - this is a manga about Yamada and Ichi's relationship.
Besides, dude's got himself the ultimate fap material which already lasts him several months, that's the whole other category, you can not substitute that with a murderbook. I guess some people jack off to guro novels, but if Ichi did, this probably would have been a totally different manga about different things and with different Ichi.

the author didn't show anything of it.

That's probably the law of conservation of detail in effect - the author shows us what's important and interesting, leaving out mundane and boring parts, same as with Ichi's data processsing club activity or cram school, or Yamada's actual work process, for that matter.

And you keep trying to make it look as if I am skeptical that the male lead is an edgelord

Well you did doubt it at least once in the course of our discussion, though that was probably due to your confusion about "show don't tell" thing.

Its just a label which is exactly why its a lazy writting tool

Its our (as in, readers) lazy tool though, not writers, not in this case anyway - Norio did not call him edgelord even once, but we, readers, did, and those of us who cannot see more past this label lose out a lot, even more so because his edginess actually diminishes with time to the point of practically disappearing

I am saying that "edgelord" is not something that makes him unique or show any actual personality anymore than saying "tsundere"

There are miriads of ways in which "edgelordness" can manifest itself, same as with "tsundere", and multitudes of ways in how these "labels" can be explored. And an edgelord being explored to the depth BokuYaba does is pretty damn unique to me. I mean, you say he's not unique, so if you know of any other edgelords similar to Ichi in other mangas (or any other media, why not), please for the sake of our discussion share them here.

and the author needs to

Why? I am seeing more of his personality from his actions and interactions with Yamada and other characters than I would have ever seen from panels with him reading murderbooks (because that's what his passion is all about).

what he actually is passionate about and how

She did though? The very first chapter, and the rest of the manga, and for those of us who did not catch that from the other chapters, we've got chapters 56 & 57.
I should also say that you've got very specific criteria of having personality, and that is, being passionate about something to the point of neglecting his/her love interest. It does not tell me about his personality anything. Is he a shithead? Is he sociable? Is he talkative? Is he short-tempered? No answers here, beisdes "he's very passionate about passion_name"

 

[Faryshta]

@mgRdr at that point of the story he haven't had a conversation wiith her yet so its not as if he liked her.

And you can claim any justification you want but the fact remains. What was SHOWN is that the male lead showed barely any interest to his supposed passion.

The chapter you mention is actually a proof of that. Seriously at this point you are not even adding arguments just excuses.

 

[Bunket]

brb had a good cry about how worthless i am and im gonna go do it again because some fictitious character is having a better life than i am

 

[waltergeist]

Reading some smooth brain arguments of the past when they have no idea what they are talkng about sure is fun.