Chainsaw Man - Ch. 174 - Ayyy, Aging

[catsdontsmile]

CSM's real name: Oblivion

 

[77BLc9JwJGpLVARkamJx]

Huh, was the government this retarded and evil in the first chainsaw man? If they are then this one is even more.

 

[gronkle]

Telomere shortening holds one of the weakest effects on us when it comes to aging, but is very important in holding back the cancers that do not mutate the ability to regulate telomerase.
It's why im of the belief that it, as a trait, eventually ended up evolving as an anti-cancer thing, as it simply seems too convenient to be a mere happy coincidence (though it's entirely possible of course).

That said, it does technically prevent immortality, since while we have stem cells that constantly provide telomerase to our important tissues, not all of our tissues are affected by this, so on the very technical sense, deleting the ageing devil would also probably delete telomere shortening.

You do bring up a fine point though, didn't think of what if eating the ageing devil also means organisms can't grow up.
The multiplication of organisms would become conpletely impossible, and if one is pedantic, even the multiplication of tissues. Not a fun time to be a meatbag lol


Problem is if you remove ageing, you're also removing ageing for cancers. Therein lies the problem.

Wait, telomerase regulation? Related to oncological risk? I'm not at all following this field, but this sounds new to me. Got a link to a study on that? My field is in developmental biology, so I am very much open to being wrong. As far as I understand, there is nothing about telomeres that are protective against cancers in specific, they exist because DNA polymerase is directional and require primers to initiate replication and, if I recall, add some protective stability to DNA the same way poly-A tails do to mRNA.

 

[gronkle]

 

[Eighty-six]

On the next chapter of Chainsaw Man:

Spoiler

 

[dloc]

They really screw up the translation. It's the old age devil (老いの悪魔) not aging devil. It makes more sense as to why the old guy was obsessed in the idea since get rid of aging wont help him but get rid of old age will. And this is the official translation too. Even basic google can do it better.

 

[123hahahuhu]

Huh, was the government this retarded and evil in the first chainsaw man? If they are then this one is even more.

I mean, they did offer every single Japanese person for the deal with Makima

 

[slch]

Good chapter
Nice content, ending

 

[radstylix]

Who the fuck let the wrinkly dried up former minister of fucking FINANCE make the goddamn call.

Unsurprisingly, a ton of money might be involved

 

[YerRob]

Wait, telomerase regulation? Related to oncological risk? I'm not at all following this field, but this sounds new to me. Got a link to a study on that? My field is in developmental biology, so I am very much open to being wrong. As far as I understand, there is nothing about telomeres that are protective against cancers in specific, they exist because DNA polymerase is directional and require primers to initiate replication and, if I recall, add some protective stability to DNA the same way poly-A tails do to mRNA.

The shortening of telomeres is what halts the overwhelming majority of cancers (noting that "cancer" is a big ol generic umbrella term, since there are many types), for example the ones that develop immunity to apoptosis inducing caspase, but never mutate a telomere maintenance mechanism (be it telomerase or ALT).

In the magical world of CSM where ageing is eaten, without telomere shortening, any cancer that sucessfully mutates an ability to avoid their programmed death, can now also divide forever from the get go, meaning there is no more constraint of needing to mutate TMM (telomerase or ALT) before they die off, suddenly shooting cancer rates skywards.

In other words, it wouldn't make cancers worse, they'd be the exact same, but they would, however, be exponentially more common, since any cancer that can avoid programmed death can also implicitly divide forever.

Mr Hayflick (who has two weeks ago reached his own Hayflick limit, rip ) had initially observed that a sucessfully mutated cancer will always be eternally divisible due to telomere abnormality (nowadays what we call TMM, which is either through telomerase or ALT, last time i checked)
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kjm1952/47/3/47_3_174/_article

And recently, people with a family history of elongated telomeres have been found to have increased risks of melanomas, which seems to reinforce the idea that abnormally enduring telomeres are detrimental to our ability to resist cancer:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK563529/

That said, do note i am not expert on this, so take it with a heavy grain of salt.

 

[Dennis-aka-Denji]

This whole thing is a fucking stupid idea

Excessive plant growth, ever-multiplying cancers and diseases, and undying locust swarms.

All this is shit i came up with in 5 seconds, yet these clowns who are supposed to lead the free world can't fucking put two and two together. They think they're gonna live forever, they soypog at the thought of "immortality", and then they fuck everything up for everyone.

Evolution didn't "invent" aging / telomerase shortening for the funsies, it did so because it was the only way to avoid total ecosystem collapse everytime populations of literally anything got too big, and cancer from constantly styling on everyone at the same time

The main risk factor for cancer is old age, a society of young people would have a negligible cancer rate. And I'm sure any of us would agree to eliminate aging if it meant we had to use a bit more insecticide.

 

[Dennis-aka-Denji]

The shortening of telomeres is what halts the overwhelming majority of cancers (noting that "cancer" is a big ol generic umbrella term, since there are many types), for example the ones that develop immunity to apoptosis inducing caspase, but never mutate a telomere maintenance mechanism (be it telomerase or ALT).

In the magical world of CSM where ageing is eaten, without telomere shortening, any cancer that sucessfully mutates an ability to avoid their programmed death, can now also divide forever from the get go, meaning there is no more constraint of needing to mutate TMM (telomerase or ALT) before they die off, suddenly shooting cancer rates skywards.

In other words, it wouldn't make cancers worse, they'd be the exact same, but they would, however, be exponentially more common, since any cancer that can avoid programmed death can also implicitly divide forever.

Mr Hayflick (who has two weeks ago reached his own Hayflick limit, rip ) had initially observed that a sucessfully mutated cancer will always be eternally divisible due to telomere abnormality (nowadays what we call TMM, which is either through telomerase or ALT, last time i checked)
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/kjm1952/47/3/47_3_174/_article

And recently, people with a family history of elongated telomeres have been found to have increased risks of melanomas, which seems to reinforce the idea that abnormally enduring telomeres are detrimental to our ability to resist cancer:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK563529/

That said, do note i am not expert on this, so take it with a heavy grain of salt.

But why assume telomeres are the way ageing would be stopped in CSM? It could happen a number of different ways, as long as perfect transcription of DNA is ensured.
Mind you, the whole idea that ageing is principally due to accumulation of genetic defects isn't exactly a proven fact either. Nick Lane's Transformer (book, not robot) is based on the premise that we age due to a continuous decrease in the efficiency of our cellular metabolism, Krebs cycle principally but not exclusively, and that this process isn't driven solely by defective genetic material, but by metabolic pressure of sorts (inefficient cells spread inflammation inducing by-products and force other cells to fall in line).
I'm also not an expert in this, so another grain of salt I guess.

 

[YerRob]

The main risk factor for cancer is old age, a society of young people would have a negligible cancer rate. And I'm sure any of us would agree to eliminate aging if it meant we had to use a bit more insecticide.

To eventually develop into a life-threatening cancer, cancer cells need to undergo, roughly speaking, 6 mutations, in no particular order: sustaining proliferative signaling, evading growth suppressors, resisting cell death, enabling replicative immortality, inducing angiogenesis, and activating invasion/metastasis.

Developing just one of these is already uncommon, to develop all six is exceedingly rare. This is why the overwhelming majority of cancerous growths never amount to anything before the organism dies of something else, and realistically a cancer needs at the very least replicative immortality and the ability to avoid their programmed death or halted growth in order to survive.

But that goes out the window as we age, because cancer is like a casino: the longer you play, the more likely you are to eventually lose, though the fact that aging reduces immune response among other things certainly doesn't help for sure.

But why assume telomeres are the way ageing would be stopped in CSM? It could happen a number of different ways, as long as perfect transcription of DNA is ensured.
Mind you, the whole idea that ageing is principally due to accumulation of genetic defects isn't exactly a proven fact either. Nick Lane's Transformer (book, not robot) is based on the premise that we age due to a continuous decrease in the efficiency of our cellular metabolism, Krebs cycle principally but not exclusively, and that this process isn't driven solely by defective genetic material, but by metabolic pressure of sorts (inefficient cells spread inflammation inducing by-products and force other cells to fall in line).
I'm also not an expert in this, so another grain of salt I guess.

Telomere shortening is arguably one of the weakest factors on aging among the hallmarks of aging, but it still is one, and would therefore have to be deleted. If you remove all the hallmarks of aging except telomere attrition, organisms would still eventually die out, even if much later, since not all tissues have access to telomerase.

If you eat the aging devil, suddenly all those 12 hallmarks should also get eaten and while i have no idea on the repercussions of the other 11, i know that eating telomere attrition/shortening will mean that cancers now automatically skip one of the three most important mutations, meaning that the chance of full-blown malignant neoplastic disease ocurrence every decade goes up by literal orders of magnitude.

Forget living forever, you'd probably be fighting malignant cancer before you're even an adult more often than not.
I guess maybe in such a society cancer checks would be mandatory every month or so, and most could get surgically removed as soon as they appear, but it all seems like a shitshow of constant cancer treatment and surgery to me, id rather just grow old and die.

 

[Senpaithatfriendzonesyou]

This whole thing is a fucking stupid idea

Excessive plant growth, ever-multiplying cancers and diseases, and undying locust swarms.

All this is shit i came up with in 5 seconds, yet these clowns who are supposed to lead the free world can't fucking put two and two together. They think they're gonna live forever, they soypog at the thought of "immortality", and then they fuck everything up for everyone.

Evolution didn't "invent" aging / telomerase shortening for the funsies, it did so because it was the only way to avoid total ecosystem collapse everytime populations of literally anything got too big, and cancer from constantly styling on everyone at the same time

What scares me is not the absurdity of it, but how terrifyingly accurate it is when talking about the short sightedness of elected politicians.

 

[Wildfire_desu]

What scares me is not the absurdity of it, but how terrifyingly accurate it is when talking about the short sightedness of elected politicians.

people in power in general. elected or not - doesn't matter. just watch the news today if you're not convinced.

 

[dowiet]

i see how this is going to end. Existence itself will cease to exist

 

[Beraudo]

Well what could possibly go wrong by pursuing this line of inquiry?

 

[daywithoutgames]

page 6 :
- girl : ... watashi-tachi , ... everyone-san ...

last pages :
- old man : ... ore am the ex-minister of finance , ... jou-chan ...

in this manga , it is forbidden / taboo to kill childrens on screen , so killing 10000 childrens will never happen .
a reminder : in a previous chapter , 3 hybrid devils wanted to kill childrens in a mall , and then they were cutted to pieces .

so this devil is the aging devil .
the relation between aging devil and mirror : normally , a woman will look into a mirror and say : " im aging , my face is getting more wrinkles . "

- aging devil : im aging , im getting more older and more weaker , so i have no attachment to life . i want to be eaten by chainsaw man , ... im the devil of oldness , so i HATE young kids , i want to see you kill 10000 young kids , lol .

 

[DTJames]

Next up, eyes.

Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil.

 

[wallsg]

...

so this devil is the aging devil .
the relation between aging devil and mirror : normally , a woman will look into a mirror and say : " im aging , my face is getting more wrinkles . "

- aging devil : im aging , im getting more older and more weaker , so i have no attachment to life . i want to be eaten by chainsaw man , ... im the devil of oldness , so i HATE young kids , i want to see you kill 10000 young kids , lol .

It's because THEY WON'T GET OFF MY LAWN!