Concerning the US Protests and Our Rules

[Halo]

@DoctorPaco if you google

site:mangadex.org "hitler"

, this thread is one of the first to come up.

 

[DoctorPaco]

@anon763
It doesn’t matter how many times you squirm, I will bring the discussion back to where it began. How is there “no difference” between a statue of Marx and a statue of Hitler? What is Marxism, and how does it relate to Marx?

You say that Marx is the “founder” of the “ideology” that is called “Marxism.” What is this ideology that you claim that he founded? As I have said from the very begin: describe what Marxism is, and describe how a statue of Marx is "no different" from a statue of Hitler.

>implying that the annexation of Austria was voluntary

Okay guys. If there was any doubt that anon763 was a Nazi, they have completely outed themselves. Imagine parading a plebiscite held during a blatant Nazi and Nazi collaborator military occupation, where 99.73% *happened* to vote in favor of the military, as some sort of voluntary democracy. This was the ballot.

Your remarks on the USSR are an ahistorical deflection intended to defend Hitler and steer the conversation, and I will not bite.

 

[DoctorPaco]

@Halo
Goodness gracious! What a find. I am sadly not surprised. That thread is baffling, and the exact same schmuck anon763 is defending Hitler on here to this day. Surely a perma-ban should be the consequence of this person's consistent Nazi/Hitler whitewashing.

 

[Baddan]

And what is going on now? It's nothing but a blatant power grab and a not-so-secret agenda revolving around the return of racial tribalism into mainstream politics.
All to keep focus away from far greater concerns like the rise of China and the growing trend of wage stagnation.

 

[anon763]

@DoctorPaco

Your remarks on the USSR are an ahistorical deflection intended to defend Hitler and steer the conversation

What part of this is ahistorical? The Great Purge? The Holodomor? The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? The Winter War? The annexation of the Baltic States?

Imagine parading a plebiscite held during a blatant Nazi and Nazi collaborator military occupation, where 99.73% *happened* to vote in favor of the military, as some sort of voluntary democracy.

I didn't say the poll was fair; it wasn't. I said the union was voluntary. And it was. There is a reason that the treaties in the aftermath of WWI specifically forbade Germany and Austria from uniting. When the Empire was dismantled the original intent was to name the country "German Austria" before that was also banned by the treaties. There was very, very strong sentiment from Austrian Germans to unify with German Germans. It was the same sentiment that had led to the creation of Germany itself less than a century before.

the exact same schmuck is defending Hitler on here to this day

You have continually accused me of defending Hitler when the entire point of the conversation has only ever been to say that there are other who were just as bad as he was and were bad because of the same things that made Hitler bad. That requires me to be claiming he was bad.

What is this ideology that you claim that he founded?

Given the utterly disingenuous and bad-faith approach you're taking to the discussion, up to and including calling for permabans over someone daring to call an ideology you agree with bad, I already know what you're going to respond with no matter what I say: that "true" Marxism has never been tried, no country has actually followed the ideology, none of the atrocities committed in its name are actually caused by it, and the rest of the usual Motte-and-Bailey.

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@M0NST3R Based and timpilled

 

[Tamerlane]

I think that's pretty weak as evidence for anything really. Saying your opinion on whether someone who was a bad person was justified or not in putting their dog down is not really related to anything going on in the conversation, and really only serves to characterize someone as being in association with Hitler in a positive sense rather than presenting an actual argument. (In the thread, I'd argue he's more pointing out a bad person doing a good thing.)

I think we should avoid mentioning Nazis or anything to do with them in this discussion because it seems disingenuous and off-topic, and more as a tool to slander and get emotions high than have meaningful and productive conversation. Plus it represents Godwin's law in action. @Halo @anon763

 

[Halo]

@Tamerlane please don't @ me next to The Holocaust deniers, thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgZtdmyKlI

 

[Tamerlane]

I don't think that's quite fair. Going through the thread, anon763 hasn't denied the Holocaust or undermined it, he just compared it to other genocides.

Granted, I don't think it's fair to compare the sum total of the Soviet Union's actions-or even Stalin's actions-to the Final Solution alone, because Hitler's other policies lead to the deaths of a lot more people, (I've heard conflicting estimates, though the most I've ever heard is 40 million, with the Holocaust being about 1/4th of that number with ~11-12 Million people being killed, about half of which was Jewish. 73 million sounds closer to the causalities for the entirety of WWII, (40 million) which while it was caused by Germany, would be unfair to pin entirely on Germany because the entire world was moving in that direction, with global tensions from the Great Depression at an all time high and there being many factors that would lead to war even if Hitler was not in charge. The Holocaust, however, was entirely the fault of Nazi ideology.) but still not as much as Stalinist policies which worsened numbers or Mao's policies. Fascists have killed a lot of people, but their system is not one that can keep a society running for more than a generation before collapsing in on itself as they seek to either make everything a part of the state or make it so everything is subservient to the state, which is untenable and leads to collapse. Marxist Socialism/Communism (There's non-Marxist socialism but those work on fundamentally different systems like the Incan system which didn't have currency but had clear hierarchies and measures of value) tends to lean toward totalitarianism and lots of death due to famine, government programs, and wars as the state blames its problems on external forces or seeks to expand its own power and influences, and so the desire to create a stateless, global revolution ends typically with dictators and food shortages, with programs like the Great Leap Forward and other Maoist policies killing closer to 55-65 million people. Also of note is that the Victims of Communism did a study where they found that the overall range was between 42,870,000 to 161,990,000 assuming that official government figures are correct, with the most common answer being about 100 million people. (https://web.archive.org/web/2018031...ictimsofcommunism.org/victims-by-the-numbers/)

Really, I'd rather not go into a dick-measuring contest between who's killed the most people because the numbers get so large we forget what's really at stake and what it really means, because the aspect of individual human suffering is lost. (General scholarly consensus would be that the Nazis had the highest death tolls in terms of intentional genocides for any individual nation, Communism killed more people overall intentional or not, and the Mongols killed more people per capita given the world's smaller population under their time.)

(I should also note I've worked with a Holocaust museum for a time and my grandmother/great grandfather were persecuted due to the Holocaust, so I definitely am not excusing it nor condoning it.(I may have doxxed myself a little bit but I trying to make it clear that I'm not in favor of these ideologies)) @Halo

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@Halo Funny vid, but I think it's still worth acknowledging how quick people are nowadays to label someone as Nazi. There are so few actual Nazis, or people with similar beliefs to Nazis, that people are eager to label someone as a Nazi, fascist, racist, etc. in order to say "look everyone, hate and racism is still very prevalent in our society and we need to put a stop to this!" to justify shutting down opposing opinions.

 

[a-rabid-velociraptor]

@Plykiya I don't know, I'd like to see more footage. From the footage I've seen in this video, they look pretty violent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieneZWYieUo&feature=youtu.be). I'd like to watch that 13 minute video and subsequent videos and make my own decisions. So, far this don't look like a peaceful protest.

 

[Halo]

@Tamerlane well, that changes everything! I can clearly see now that Holodomor = Holocaust, Red Army = Schutzstaffel and that "Hitler did a lot that was praiseworthy".
Just kidding. You can go ahead and write books on that topic, I'll just use common sense for spotting a nazi.

 

[Tamerlane]

I feel like you're being intentionally obstinate here. No one said that the Holodomor is on the same level as the holocaust, more that the communists are just as capable of genocides as the Nazis were. The Schutzstaffel isn't being compared to the Red army, I'd more compare the Wehrmacht, which also committed atrocities and warcrimes, but wasn't as entrenched in the ideology and had just as many conscripts as it had devotees, which is similar to what the Red Army did. (Doesn't excuse their actions, but I think it's fair to say that not soldier was a bad person as much as a pawn for a terrible cause.) I think you're taking a too black and white view of history which undermines that the Nazis weren't this alien, inhuman threat and that they're not devils and demons from another world, but rather they're just as human as you and I are. It's the banality of evil, the fact people could go to work everyday and oversee the deaths of thousands of people and then go home, love their wives, feed their kids, and act like nothing ever happened. That's what makes it so insidious is that under different circumstances, you and I could both be operating the gas chamber, or inside of it with just as much likelihood if the wrong person in the right place at the right time takes control, and feeds on your biases, beliefs, and like a predates on how you believe to manipulate you into doing things you would never do otherwise.

My issue with the Nazi thing is that it's a witch hunt. People see Nazis where they want to see them and judge people on that basis. It's a "your evil and I don't have to listen to you" form of arguing in which you label someone and shut down the conversation rather than engaging with them, which only leads to further radicalization. Division, violence, and shutting down conversations polarizes societies, ends civility and leads to the death of democracy. Ironically, it's what lead the end of the Weimar Republic is the fact socialists and fascists fought in the street and began to divide people in order to try and drive a wedge in society, blaming every outside force they could for the state of Germany until the one with the biggest stick took charge by usurping democracy. Rather than putting people into boxes that you've defined and dismissing them on those grounds, it is instead better to engage them as you would anyone else and try to act as charitable as you can towards them.

The best example I can think to cite is the Tao Te Ching in it's views in regards to creating a healthy society, though I do have some reservations on it, I feel that there is wisdom in Laozi's words and it could better lead us to a more civil engagement

The Master has no mind of her own.
She works with the mind of the people.

She is good to people who are good.
She is also good to people who aren't good.
This is true goodness.

She trusts people who are trustworthy.
She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.
This is true trust.

The Master's mind is like space.
People don't understand her.
They look to her and wait.
She treats them like her own children.​

If you block others, refuse to engage with them, insult them, shut them out and belittle and demean them, you will get no where in life. It is only when you open yourself to their ideas and engage with them that you can truly understand their perspective and either debunk them if their ideas lack merit, accept them if their ideas have merit, or integrate the parts that have merit whilst leaving behind the ideas that don't. It is in this way you can create a more civil and understanding perspective, rather than clinging to predetermined beliefs and choosing not to engage faithfully and charitably to another person's opinions. @Halo

 

[justforthelulz]

Oh, we've invoked Godwin's Law multiple times in this topic here on MangaDex? Have I got the perfect crossover!

 

[Tamerlane]

Beautiful @justforthelulz


I read the first chapter and couldn't stop laughing, but for some reason I haven't had time to read the rest. I'll get to it eventually.


Also I love Godwin's law because it's so true. I really wish no one brough up the Nazis in this thread, because we were finally settling things before it fucking exploded again.

 

[a-rabid-velociraptor]

 

[Tamerlane]

put "

" around it @a-rabid-velociraptor

 

[a-rabid-velociraptor]

@Tamerlane Didn't work the first time but now it does. Yeah.😁

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@Tamerlane Well put, doubt I could put it into better words even if you gave me a week. I hope this thread hasn't run out of fuel yet, as I'd like it to get to 1,000 replies, without forcing it of course.

 

[Halo]

@Tamerlane

No one said that the Holodomor is on the same level as the holocaust,

If you block others, refuse to engage with them, insult them, shut them out and belittle and demean them, you will get no where in life.

Sure, I am the one who blocks other views. Not the guy who brought this retarded comparison in the first place.

As you can see, I'm still not convinced. Maybe 5 more walls of text defending internet nazis will do the job. Good luck.