Cookie Revolution Scans and Watermarks

[jak]

I noticed the Mangadex rules state that giant obstructive watermarks are not allowed. Well Cookie Revolution Scans seems to be getting away with it. Are they allowed to post these works that aren't even theirs with their huge watermark plastered all over the art?

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Their philosophy is that "if you really enjoy the manga, you'll go out and buy it to support the authors and the watermarks are to aid in the process" or something like that (correct me if I'm wrong @cookie_revolution_scans).

Although I disagree since leaving a message at the end of every chapter to remind the readers to support the authors directly by buying their manga is a better way to undergo their philosophy, in my opinion.

 

[jak]

If they were to put a small watermark in negative space then I wouldn't care. Many do that and they aren't intrusive as hell. This is just over the line though. How can someone properly judge a manga enough to buy it if a damn watermark is ruining the quality of the art?

 

[Cookie_Revolution_Scans]

I've stated it several times now: If you don't like our releases, just ignore them.

There are enough people who like our work and those who do actually go and buy the Japanese version, message us and get the clean version. So in all honesty: This is just you complaining about not getting what you feel entitled to, jak. Heck, you (and some others) have been stalking us since batoto to continuously spew abuse. By now I'm not even sure if I should be mad, annoyed, amused or simply don't care about it and you. You lot even yap about on mangas that we weren't the only group working on, so you even had another version you could have simply read and be done with this.

Are you bored? Is that it? I've seen plenty of internet trolls over the years and your behavior lines up well with that. Because I simply see no reason other than that for you to keep this up over years.

I'll say it again: Our watermark is there to give people a better reason to buy the official version, be that either English or Japanese. A "small watermark in negative space" does not serve that purpose - that sort of stamp is only to stake your claim on something by putting your name on the pages. But we actually don't care that much about putting a name on it. That's why we've previously used random stamps such as leaves. But readers and staff alike did vote in favor of the logo when asked what they'd prefer, so we went with that.

I don't accept "I can't see through this!" arguments, since I do read those very same chapters on here despite the fact that I could, by virtue of being admin, read them all unstamped if I just looked for them on my drive. And strangely enough, there are a great many readers who seem to have no problem reading through the stamp either. Even those who complain keep on coming back to our releases and reading them, so it's either they A) lied and can see through them just fine, or, B) have a split personality that lets them read through the stamp one time and robs them of sight the next.

You can well argue if or in what capacity the stamp may encourage people to get the original version but that's where our opinions will differ.

My opinion is the following: Most people don't buy the manga they read even if they like or love them. And while claiming that they don't have the money to do so, they actually do have enough to regularly buy new clothes, coffee to go, sweets, a new phone etcetera. While I can understand even that to a certain point, I find the capacity they are doing this in more than distasteful and unfair towards the creators who are reliant upon the income of their work. It's simply not fair.
Yet I also see those who really cannot afford to buy manga. (And generally speaking, we've never received anything but gratefulness from them.) I also see those who want to support an author but have no way of understanding a manga in Japanese without translations.

We could also publish 2-3 pages for each chapter clean with the message that readers can contact us to get the rest once they have bought the Japanese version and just not publish the rest openly. That would be the other way that readers would have to buy the original. But that would take away from those who really cannot afford to buy manga at this point in time. There are also those who have stated they won't ever buy a manga unless they have read the whole thing as a scanlation first and know how the story unfolds. So our way of doing things is a trade-off.

You can always get our version without the stamp if you buy the original (or get the original and not get our clean version lol). Or you can wait for an official English version and go buy that. We offer a compromise in between official versions.

If you don't like said compromise, just ignore our work.

Let's be honest here: What is your ultimate goal? For what purpose are you doing this? Because to me it seems like you're acting upon a grudge for being denied something you felt entitled to, yet weren't given. Now you want to hurt the one who's "hurt" you, namely our group. I guess you hope to either A) force us to release in the way you want us to or B) stop releasing entirely/revoke permission to upload on mangadex. Seeing as we're unwilling to go for alternative A), you're most likely in it for alternative B). But here comes the part I don't get. You're aware that there are people who do enjoy our releases, yet you want to take us down completely which will, inevitably, also hurt those who actually do like our work. So I really, really don't understand why we're even having this discussion when all you'd need to do is walk away and let people decide for themselves if they wish to read our version or not. No one forces you or anyone who disagrees with our practice to read chapters published by us, so this is simply bizarre.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

O_O somebody sure exploded...

@Cookie_Revolution_Scans I'm not gonna criticize your opinion since your way of thinking is actually fair game. I'm just gonna point out that, unless you copy paste that entire message on every chapter you put on MD, new people are going to flush in and ask "what's up with the watermarks?" I'm sure you already realized that tho.

Also, in defence of literally everyone else, people don't like what they personally don't consider "normal". Seeing a watermark on every page is abnormal for quite a few peeps so that's why they're pretty distressed.

Still, those who stalk you only to send hate messages should be blocked. They have no right to harass you if you didn't hurt them first.

 

[Cookie_Revolution_Scans]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN Thank you very much. I'm grateful you tagged me in the first place, so I could state my opinion and not have this become another post for haters to run their mouths without giving me the possibility of defending our group. My message was mainly targeted towards jak and those of similar opinion.

I realize that there are a lot of varying opinions on this matter and I respect that people may not like our way of scanlating. I guess the reason I wrote so much is that I have started to feel like I'm talking with a small child when it comes to people like the OP. They have re-posted the same tirade over and over again, never actually adding anything to the conversation, never explaining their reasoning or motive other than with a tantrum along the lines of "But I want this - now gimme that or go f*ck yourself!". Above all, they try to harm not only us but 3rd parties as well, out of an egoistic grudge. By explaining our stance I hope to make readers (if not jak, then maybe some passerby who reads this) understand - not like - our stance. 🙂

I could always copy the text I wrote and put it as an insert in our releases, but I highly doubt that people would actually read it; don't you agree? I've made the experience that those who are really interested in our reasoning would ask us directly as you have done before or read up on the forum or previous messages I have written in similar situations. I'm enough of a realist to know that most people would not read such an insert and, most likely, even come up with new reasons to spew hate as in "Not another insert yada yada". So I prefer to have serious discussions where they might be fruitful instead of feeding the trolls. If you head over to the projects we do, you'll notice a few people who merely comment to trash talk about us. Some of them even copied their comments from batoto since they seem unable to start a new conversation lol. I've been contacted by readers in the past who told me that they were even attacked for daring to defend us or publicly state their liking of us. There's something really wrong with this, so I try to give explanations when I can and they seem warranted.

And yeah, our way of scanlating is the exception. But we're fine with this. Others don't have to follow us, nor we them. Everyone should just do their own thing and work out for themselves if they can or cannot accept another's opinion and way of doing things. And while I find it hurtful on a bad day, I've learned to ignore things and people I cannot change or agree with but try to put in some effort when it really matters instead. I'm just really curious/confused about why they'd go so far. I mean.. it's been 3 years soon, I think. And some are still going on about it... It's a mystery.

 

[crazybars]

@Cookie_Revolution_Scans

Mmmm . . . . . I took a look at your group's work. You guys place an unusually HUGE page sized watermark over ever single page. I've never seen any other group use such a large watermark. It's like defacing a batman comic with a Photoshop filter, then saying that won't affect the quality.


No, your watermark significantly impacts the art. You are signaling to anyone who reads your translated version of the work that you place your own group's goals over the quality of your releases.

That's bound to make a lot of people VERY unhappy. Heck, it's probably the majority, but no one wants to say anything out of courtesy that your group actually took the trouble to translate the work.

 

[merinocaramel]

@crazybars You seem to have missed the point of the wordwall above.

Yes their group does seem more concerned about their own goals. But that very goal is to make sure the author is getting properly funded for their works.

You can get the quality release after you showed them that you have bought the actual manga. That is exactly the point why the big watermark is there.

 

[Cookie_Revolution_Scans]

@crazybars As stated before: It's supposed to detract from the art. If you want the finest quality, then buying the original or official English version is the way to go. Reading our release is an option, not a must, therefore I see no reason for all the fuss. If we were in it for the popularity, we'd have changed our tune years ago. We'd do our thing even if only one person out there liked it. Seeing as how we do actually distribute a version without any watermark as well to those who support the creators, I also disagree with your statement of placing goals over quality. I'd say we put an equal amount of effort into both. We offer something. It's up to every individual to decide if they like/accept the offer or not. Whether or not that endears us to the majority is not our primary concern.

 

[Zephyrus]

@jak
As per Rule 3.2.5, which states: Always upload releases from the highest possible quality source, which is usually the scanlator's website. Do not upload highly compressed and watermarked releases from aggregators, unless there is absolutely no other option.

@Cookie_Revolution_Scans is not "getting away with it". They are within the rules in this instance. However, I'd like to note that this would not be allowed on MD:

We could also publish 2-3 pages for each chapter clean with the message that readers can contact us to get the rest once they have bought the Japanese version and just not publish the rest openly.

If I'm reading this correctly, CRS would only post 2-3 pages of a chapter with a message that the clean version will be provided upon proof of purchase of Japanese raws. This against Rule 3.2.6 Only partially uploading releases with the intention to lure users to your site for the other chapters is not allowed. Either upload all chapters, or don't upload any.

Personally, I find huge watermarks distasteful no matter the reason why. I won't read said series and it certainly wouldn't make me inclined to spend my money. I remember when Breaker: New Waves began doing that. I dropped the series and never finished it. Ultimately, readers have two choices: read with the watermark in place or don't read it.

 

[Cookie_Revolution_Scans]

Thank you for clarifying, @Zephyrus.

When I mentioned the 2-3 pages thing, I was talking about general hypothetical options open to us not yet involving MD at all but looking at the mere format of our releases. I'm aware that partial uploads are not allowed on here.

And yes, watermarks are a deciding factor to some and I can respect that. As you said, it's up to the individuals to decide whether or not they wish to read the chapters. Maybe sometime in the future MD will have a feature to block releases done by certain groups, then everyone who does not wish to even see that we've uploaded something, can block us out from their index page. Until then, they'll just have to walk away by themselves.

 

[jak]

What is your ultimate goal?

- @Cookie_Revolution_Scans

To stop groups from plastering their shitty watermark all over the art of other people's work. I would actually like to read some of the titles you are doing, but can't because of how intrusive it is. Other groups for years have been saying "support the author" for years. It's up to that person to do it or not. Holding someone else's work hostage as a way to try to help them doesn't. It just turns people off their work and they are less likely to read it and therefore buy it now as others have said in this thread. So don't you think you are doing more harm than good? Also quit playing the victim and acting like you are specifically being targeted for some person reason. I'd call out any group that would stamp a huge watermark on someone else's work. You are doing this for free and you have no right to do that.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Cookie_Revolution_Scans

Wouldn't the watermarks be counter-productive tho? If it turns people off, then they won't read the manga. If they don't, they won't know if they like it and the possibility of the mangaka's support would vanish, just like that.

As harsh as @jak is, they got a point.

But I still disagree with this.

Also quit playing the victim and acting like you are specifically being targeted for some person reason. I'd call out any group that would stamp a huge watermark on someone else's work.

They hit first, making Cookie the victim. Cookie did nothing directly wrong to offend the haters (correct me if I'm wrong, everyone).



The way I see it, there are two issues:

1. The controversy surrounding the large watermark at every page.
2. The harrasers that are flushing in to hate on Cookie nonstop.

 

[421cookies]

Just checked and lmao, that watermark is funny af.
But yeah, even as a fellow 'Cookie' nickname, I don't think I would ever read anything that stamped with such huge watermark.

 

[jak]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

I was just using CRS as an example. Stop acting like I'm out to get them specifically.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

In an attempt of solving issue #2, I went through all the comments that are released by Cookie Revolution Scans. To my surprise, they were mostly extremely positive: this being the third most "angry", this takes second place, and first place is taken by none other than Jak themself. Oh and also this I guess.

@Cookie_Revolution_Scans I'm not seeing the same, repeating hater you're talking about. If you mean that they're harrassing you through pm, do you mind showing evidence?

Also, I notice that the watermarks have in fact worked; people brought the manga and you gave them the clean translations. I, however, also notice how small that number is. Comparing to popular series here whose scanlators possess a completely different philosophy to CRS, they raised a very large audience, a portion of them realizing on their own that they want to support the mangaka by buying their mangas directly.

At this point you do begin to wonder - is the watermark really worth it?

 

[Teasday]

_{@Cookie_Revolution_Scans posted:}

I'll say it again: Our watermark is there to give people a better reason to buy the official version, be that either English or Japanese.

I'm just parroting what's already been said here, but I do wonder if this is actually effective, especially to the extent that you'd like it to be. If people can request unmarked scans with a proof of purchase then you probably have the numbers to back it up.

This is of course just speculation, but what I imagine the actual effect is it for the most part creates two groups of people: 1) people who don't mind the watermark and aren't really deterred by it, thus not driving them to buy the series themselves, and 2) people who are put off by it, causing them to feel irritated and creating an association with the manga and their foul mood, thus driving them away from reading the manga in the first place let alone buying it. I guess there must be the third group that does exactly as you're hoping they would, otherwise I don't really see why you would keep this up.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Teasday For your third point, the cheerful conversation here makes it seem so, although not confirmed.

 

[Cookie_Revolution_Scans]

See, the thing is I don't believe that a person would necessarily stop reading a manga because it has a deficit such as watermarks, bad translations, cleans or typeset. If they really want to read it, they will. And if they start out with the story but then stop because they can't stand our watermark, they should be like sharks tasting blood when the official English version releases and snatch it off the shelves faster than you can say one-click-purchase. But in the end, those who are deterred by the watermark are only interested so-so and wouldn't spend their money on it in the end anyways.

You can always argue that some may be turned off reading it, thus never discovering the manga, but on the other hand, I might argue just the same that an equal, if not greater amount of people would feel less inclined to purchase an official release if they could get a nice enough version for free (just look at all the people reading tapas comics on aggregator sites instead of heading over to the official site and purchasing the chapters – not even one). Over the years I have come to realize that while scanlation is nice on one hand, it has also given people an entitled attitude and festered the belief that mangas must always be available in perfect condition for free. As a result, sales are slow and series get axed/never picked up. Scanlators do, in my opinion, share a part of the responsibility here. Sure, it's the masses who have become entitled, but scanlators have to remember that they're part of the "problem". How they go about facing this, is something every group decides for themselves. Some only distribute in closed-to-the-outside-world forums or IRC channels. Others believe saying "Please support the author." is enough. Others put a stamp. We put the watermark. Scanlation does have a lot of positive aspects, yes. But ignoring the bad isn’t going to cut it. We chose to lessen the bad with our approach. If that's the correct way to go is anyone's guess.

As jak has said himself, he wants to read some of the mangas we're doing. If he finds watermarks unbearable, he could just get the original and read that as is or receive our stamp-free version to read along the original. But he doesn't. He wouldn't spend money on the manga anyways, so why should I even feel discouraged over him not reading our release? Remember, we're not doing this for the brownie points, so whether or not he likes us, is of no consequence to me.

When talking about people buying manga, you also have to consider the popularity of the manga, thus readership, in question first. We’re mostly working on titles few people know and/or have interest in in the first place. And it’s not like a lot of people actually buy those either. This is especially true for shoujo, I think. Which might also be the reason why merch is less common outside Japan for that genre when compared to shounen. And in case this is where you’re going with this… I will not publish a list of names of people who bought the Jap version. That’s their choice if they want to tell you or not and I'd never publish their personal info either. We don’t get thousands of request, true. But those we do get, we cherish. I could scramble across our various social media channels and re-read emails and count them all to give you an exact number of how many requests we’ve received. But 1) I’ve got better things to do and 2) I’m not sure what you’re hoping for. Number X equals a good result, number Y a bad one? That’s not how we see it. What % of people who read a scanlation –no matter which or whose- do you think actually purchases the manga (or even a part of a series)?

Also I am mostly referring to the MD/batoto users when I’m talking about repetitive comments. Some of the comments can still be found on the vatoto remains while others have been deleted by moderators while it was still batoto. Seeing as how the names, avatars and comments are basically the same, chances that those are different people are considerably low.

We couldn’t agree back then and we won’t this time around. That’s just the way things are. We believe in one thing, you in the other. I don’t see a solution other than walking away as we’ll never get to a point where both sides will be satisfied.

 

[421cookies]

@Cookie_Revolution_Scans
Maybe it's because I don't really read shoujo manga so I don't care what you do with your scans, but if it's manga that I actually care, even when I get my hands on the raw I would never want to ask for your clean scans because in my mind you're already just a mere pityful scanlation that feel satisfaction by getting people who read your scans to buy the manga. Just my opinion tho.

@jak @DANDAN_THE_DANDAN Let's bet whether admins gonna bombard their scans or not lol.

Also, @Teasday or any other admins, I just noticed clicking on a manga page's demographic tag doesn't resulting search by that filtered demographic. Anyone reported this bug yet?