Cross-dressing Fanfare

[Manko-sensei]

Cross-dressing has existed for millenia but I am not going to talk about the presence in mythology, courts or heritage displayed on museums, but about the otaku sphere. From idols cross-dressers to series and fandom there is a lot to choose from however... do you know all the types? Since everyone has considered cross-dressing even as a prank once in their life, let's see how many of you participate. Don't worry about your parents, I made sure not to click on the box where everyone can see individual votes and only those who participate will know the ongoing results. Feel free to comment of course, I am going to link an image which was popular at some point to fuel the debate. In there, TS stands for Transsexual. The image obviously refers to male cross-dressers, but for both poll and debate female cross-dressers are to be considered. Just change Femboy for Boyish Girl and Girly Boys for Tomboys.

 

[DavidianMillerian]

poll jumpscare

 

[Manko-sensei]

I posted it before being complete (accidentally pushed the intro button), of course the image is centered on male cross-dressers but the intention was bidirectional.

 

[IlaiaCorde]

I dont think TS counts as crossdressing, since that's the opposite of cross dressing really...

(I.e, they consider themselves to be the opposite gender and usually transition to live as that preferred gender.)

 

[Manko-sensei]

That's why I specified in the otaku sphere, they use clothes and make-up but don't undergo cirugies or treatments, and they don't completely live as the other sex/gender because in the stories they can't. Some of them genderfluid, others only as long as they're not dealing with legal issues, unlike reality they don't make a complete change. It's the act of cross-dressing what gives them that identity and the reason why in the hexagon are put as the opposite of cross-dressers (those who dress-up as a hobby). I haven't found yet a series where they take a step further from that, it's through appearances that they express that they're the opposite from birth (there are about queer and other kinds though). Maybe someday we get a story more close to reality, but so far they're unrelatable in that sense.

 

[Justice88]

Where the maid boys???

 

[Manko-sensei]

Where the maid boys???

Referring to the picture, they're mixed everywhere, referring to the poll I didn't specify troupes because they can fit different points. I consider everyone separately, even in the same series I can find maid boys who do it due different reasons, for instance Futaboku (to name a popular series).

 

[alrightcock]

transsexual is a OLD Archaic ass word

 

[Justice88]

Yes we call them Mig-21 now-a-days. Kindly replace TS on the picture with Fishbed.

 

[TestAddress]

transsexual is a OLD Archaic ass word

Gay is even older.

 

[Manko-sensei]

To start with I already warned that the image is not mine and has some years. If that's an archaic word for you what are you, zoomers? Gay and Queer are quite old (check the dictionary) though with a different meaning, and it was used in literary texts/works. And whatever jargon is that you want to be replaced with has a different root and meaning, let alone offensive. Maybe long words make English natives (specially American ones) spin their heads, but both transsexual and transgender are not only still on use but also have a different meaning. I suppose reading Judith Butler could be a good start, but it would be even better if instead you started with Hannah Arendt and Simone de Beauvoir.

 

[NotGary]

men who wear dresses simply because they think it makes them more feminine.
even though they'll be the first to tell you that dresses weren't always exclusively worn by women.

and I do mean exclusively men cause there's no "guy only clothes" that I at least grew up with.
(althought pants used to be considered that, some 80-ish years ago)

 

[alrightcock]

To start with I already warned that the image is not mine and has some years. If that's an archaic word for you what are you, zoomers? Gay and Queer are quite old (check the dictionary) though with a different meaning, and it was used in literally texts/works. And whatever jargon is that you want to be replaced with has a different root and meaning, let alone offensive. Maybe long words make English natives (specially American ones) spin their heads, but both transsexual and transgender are not only still on use but also have a different meaning. I suppose reading Judith Butler could be a good start, but it would be even better if instead you started with Hannah Arendt and Simone de Beauvoir.

relax it was a joke lmao first of all, not being literal (kinda a dated word for someone being transgender) no need to go full debate lord (i dont care if u dont think its a dated word, also kinda ironic trying to educate someone when you can't differentiate between someone being literal and taking the piss mate 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🦷🪥🇬🇧🤺 <-- supposed to be england emojis but i guessed it oof'd)

 

[Manko-sensei]

I don't know how I was supposed to take that as a joke, specially after the bonk reaction. Every time I want to make a retort, irony or whatever joke I make it clear. And the idea of this thread was to debate (as announced), not to shitpost, for that you have plenty of open threads. It takes the same effort to contribute than to disrupt: that is, if you care about what you write. If I wanted to give a lecture I'd just put it on Coursera.

 

[NotGary]

I don't know how I was supposed to take that as a joke, specially after the bonk reaction. Every time I want to make a retort, irony or whatever joke I make it clear. And the idea of this thread was to debate (as announced), not to shitpost, for that you have plenty of open threads. It takes the same effort to contribute than to disrupt: that is, if you care about what you write. If I wanted to give a lecture I'd just put it on Cousera.

its the internet. expect people to take the piss on any subject.
(irreverence is the word I think)

oh btw, I remember when reading jjba of first coming accross the practise of making your son for at least the first 4-8 years if his life cross dress as some kind of spiritual ward. what's your take on this practice ?

 

[Manko-sensei]

The only work I know that goes by JJBA is Jojo Bizare Adventure so I suppose it's not the case (and I can't figure out what other title could be), so I can't give you an answer to that. But cross-dressing (and even swapping roles) exists as a rite of passage in several religions/mythos/societies, if you're referring to something like that in most cases those were practices that took time during childhood up to coming to age (whichever it was) and was a preventive rite. For instance, Athens girls of certain status were to spend some years from their 8s and finishing before being 15th perfoming jobs and tasks that were supposed to be done by men, such as hunting or fighting, and either wearing men clothing or going nude while doing gymnastics/athletism. If this was what you were asking (outside the otaku sphere), I treat it as knowledge to understand societies from the past.

 

[IlaiaCorde]

Hmm.

 

[UnnamedPlayer]

oh btw, I remember when reading jjba of first coming accross the practise of making your son for at least the first 4-8 years if his life cross dress as some kind of spiritual ward. what's your take on this practice ?

Same thing in the manga "xxxHolic". I would'nt be surprised if it was something real in ancient japan.

 

[solstice258]

Same thing in the manga "xxxHolic". I would'nt be surprised if it was something real in ancient japan.

More like in early modern Europe

 

[Manko-sensei]

Same thing in the manga "xxxHolic". I would'nt be surprised if it was something real in ancient japan.

I haven't read everything regarding Japanese classic literature and history yet, but putting both xxxHolic and MariaxHolic aside (MariaxHolic grants good laughs), from Nihongi/Kojiki (myth and first historical works) there's no cross-dressing but metamorphosing into animals or mythologic creatures. For court things, they mostly copied from their neighbours and adapted it for them, and there weren't rites of passage regarding gender identity specifically. Women didn't even need to use pseudonims since they were the best at arts. Some famous figures that arised debates were warriors from the Sengoku period, notables as Kenshin Uesugi, that it's still in debate what was their actual sex. In performing arts there is some variety when it comes to cross-dressing and basically breaking the barrier between the performer sex and the characters sex, such as Noh, Kabuki and Rakugo. Further than that there is nothing alike to what we were discussing.