Danshikou ni Dokusareta Otokonoko
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@Vofuro I seem to have gotten it mixed up with shoujo Ai. So was kinda wrong.
Shounen Ai was a kind of genre of soft BL written for women, which then spawned Yaoi due to some of said women being thirstier for more sexual content and thus produced their own doujinshi with boys fucking.
Shoujo Ai however I believe is a scanlation term, since Yuri is much more broadly defined than Yaoi and thus covers everything from straight up porn to softer romance.
All in all it's very confusing and I get it mixed up all the time, sorry.
Shounen Ai was a kind of genre of soft BL written for women, which then spawned Yaoi due to some of said women being thirstier for more sexual content and thus produced their own doujinshi with boys fucking.
Shoujo Ai however I believe is a scanlation term, since Yuri is much more broadly defined than Yaoi and thus covers everything from straight up porn to softer romance.
All in all it's very confusing and I get it mixed up all the time, sorry.
@Orange_Orange
No problem, thanks for clarifying! But it's fascinating that there's such a division between innocent & sexual boy love, but none with girl love, even if it's got sexual stuff, too. It sounds like it's really confusing!
No problem, thanks for clarifying! But it's fascinating that there's such a division between innocent & sexual boy love, but none with girl love, even if it's got sexual stuff, too. It sounds like it's really confusing!
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it is getting worse in a good way...
Fed-Kun's army
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If you haven't seen or read it ... Stop right there before you got yourself deep in trap heaven. It's very dangerous for your heterosexuality.
I already warn you, read at your own risks.
[Ride away to horizon with rainbow Pegasus]
I already warn you, read at your own risks.
[Ride away to horizon with rainbow Pegasus]
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Any other teen love manga: "takes 80 chapters to say I love you and another 80 for the first kiss"
cute trap manga: "we like each other --> alright let's fuck"
cute trap manga: "we like each other --> alright let's fuck"
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I'm just reading this as BL and don't have the identity crisis y'all are having. :'p
On that front, it's not bad. A pretty natural slow progression so far from "gutter-talk at all-boys school", to "kinky shenanigans with one of the protagonists being a stand-in for a girl", to "these two appear to actually be a couple that are in love with each other (but are still caught up in lewd stuff)".
It's mind is 100% in the gutter the whole way, though, as advertised. That's not usually really my thing but, in this case I will concede that this particular story probably couldn't be told without that.
(And finally—there's been none of the creepy shoutacon bulging-balls stuff that a lot of other ecchi trap-ish stuff gets into, thank god. The one protagonist does indeed kind of look like a girl at all times, and some other cross-dressers join the cast, but that's it: None of that pedophilia erotica or whatnot such as to make me want to gouge my eyes right out.)
On that front, it's not bad. A pretty natural slow progression so far from "gutter-talk at all-boys school", to "kinky shenanigans with one of the protagonists being a stand-in for a girl", to "these two appear to actually be a couple that are in love with each other (but are still caught up in lewd stuff)".
It's mind is 100% in the gutter the whole way, though, as advertised. That's not usually really my thing but, in this case I will concede that this particular story probably couldn't be told without that.
(And finally—there's been none of the creepy shoutacon bulging-balls stuff that a lot of other ecchi trap-ish stuff gets into, thank god. The one protagonist does indeed kind of look like a girl at all times, and some other cross-dressers join the cast, but that's it: None of that pedophilia erotica or whatnot such as to make me want to gouge my eyes right out.)
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I don’t get the whole idea otokonoko thing, but I don’t know why I don’t.
It’s just a manner of dress and general attitude, and there doesn’t even seem to be a fixed rule set. That’s all fine. It’s fine. If it makes people happy, cool! That rules.
WHY AM I CONFUSED?
I know non-binary people. A number of them. Trans men and women. I’m a lesbian who’s a practicing Jew and I study Torah and tefila every day but I married an atheist who had only dated men before. All of this makes total sense to me.
I read so much BL.
Why does this make me like 🧐 🤨 🤔???
My feelings in this regard are absolutely stupid and I’m trying to figure them out so I can stop being an idiot.
It’s just a manner of dress and general attitude, and there doesn’t even seem to be a fixed rule set. That’s all fine. It’s fine. If it makes people happy, cool! That rules.
WHY AM I CONFUSED?
I know non-binary people. A number of them. Trans men and women. I’m a lesbian who’s a practicing Jew and I study Torah and tefila every day but I married an atheist who had only dated men before. All of this makes total sense to me.
I read so much BL.
Why does this make me like 🧐 🤨 🤔???
My feelings in this regard are absolutely stupid and I’m trying to figure them out so I can stop being an idiot.
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@Thrembs:
I can't help you but you have my empathies—I know I get caught up on weird edge-cases about gender where it takes me a long time to properly pin down what's tripping me up.
My random hot-take on reasons why this particular trend might be striking you as weird, though:
(This particular series struck me, I should say, at getting viscerally right to the heart of the sort of dingy, muddled, ostensibly-straight-men's testosterone confusion between "is this a weird kink just for fun, or is this gay and are we okay with that, or is he basically a girl now, or should I just stop thinking about it?" that the genre seems to be fundamentally mired in, for the large part. Thankfully this one has started to lean frankly gay without much reserve, which is refreshing. Also has an artist both interested in and capable of making some of the not-at-all-cute side characters cross-dress with not-solely-comedic results, which is a rarity in the genre.)
I can't help you but you have my empathies—I know I get caught up on weird edge-cases about gender where it takes me a long time to properly pin down what's tripping me up.
For me a huge one, which was also a bit uncomfortable, was being to articulate to myself the subtle conflict between the feminism I was raised on ("gender shouldn't matter") and the recent explosion of optional-gender stuff ("gender matters, so you should be able to choose if yours doesn't suit you"). Before that I was wondering what about some of the current trends about how we're thinking about gender as a culture, were making me uncomfortable. The idea that I, a bisexual person who's actively happy when people defy gender norms, was having trouble with some transgender and other gender-related rhetoric that was emerging, was incredibly and profoundly confusing.
Otokonoko stuff is of course a much less serious-business issue than that.
Otokonoko stuff is of course a much less serious-business issue than that.
My random hot-take on reasons why this particular trend might be striking you as weird, though:
The otokonoko trend is unusual in that it's (at least as far as I've seen from manga that got translated) a gay-ish / gender-identity-ish thing aimed primarily—and often as fanservice—at (semi-)straight men. M/M gay (or objectified men in general) for straight men is... a very strange space to be in. In some cases the cross-dressing ends up having a very strange relationship with regards to how the reader (and/or protagonist/love-interest) is supposed to perceive the cross-dressing character (e.g. often as not, as a sort of exotic and exciting stand-in for a woman), vs. how the character is stated to perceive themselves (sometimes masculine-identifying, sometimes not).
Which is to say, it's not neccessarily exactly enlightened stuff with an open mind towards issues of gender and sexuality (though some of them are! But it's definitively not required, is my point). "Cute boys are attractive in cute dresses, if they look enough like girls" is not exactly the broad-minded statement that it could be.
Some of the worse of it is even actively offensive to real LGBT and gender issues, I would argue.
Which is to say, it's not neccessarily exactly enlightened stuff with an open mind towards issues of gender and sexuality (though some of them are! But it's definitively not required, is my point). "Cute boys are attractive in cute dresses, if they look enough like girls" is not exactly the broad-minded statement that it could be.
Some of the worse of it is even actively offensive to real LGBT and gender issues, I would argue.
(This particular series struck me, I should say, at getting viscerally right to the heart of the sort of dingy, muddled, ostensibly-straight-men's testosterone confusion between "is this a weird kink just for fun, or is this gay and are we okay with that, or is he basically a girl now, or should I just stop thinking about it?" that the genre seems to be fundamentally mired in, for the large part. Thankfully this one has started to lean frankly gay without much reserve, which is refreshing. Also has an artist both interested in and capable of making some of the not-at-all-cute side characters cross-dress with not-solely-comedic results, which is a rarity in the genre.)
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@Pokari
Otokonoko is a thing irl, too. That’s where it gets confusing, and I don’t know why. Present how you want. That all fine.
I don’t know what it is about this particular brand of non traditional gender presentation that confuses me. It’s stupid for me to be confused.
Well, that’s a whole thing. “I don’t see colour/gender/etc” sounds good on paper, but ignores that on a fundamental level the lives of different groups are different, experience different societal pressures and ignoring that amounts to ignoring the plights of the underprivileged as well as the injustice in excessive privilege some groups have.
The other thing is that gender, gender presentation and sexuality are all different things. I’ve known gay trans men who dress up in drag, butch straight trans women... just because one has a gender doesn’t mean one must conform to all the norms thereof.
I mean, I’m Jewish. That has certain baggage.
Even if I ditched faith I’d still be Jewish. Antisemitism is a real issue, and has been for millennia. There’s also all the genetic health disorders and risks that come with Jewish heritage. I have like 3 minimum.
I’m a woman. I would get hit on by random men while buying groceries, sometimes in lewd and threatening ways.
I’m a lesbian. My wife and I have gotten stares and rude comments even in our fairly liberal area on our fairly liberal state.
I look white, more or less. I can get away with more than many of my neighbours.
I’m disabled.
“It doesn’t matter to me” sounds great. It just, sadly, doesn’t really work.
If nothing else, I’m only attracted to women. To say gender shouldn’t matter is... not on.
I said many times before I met my wife “I’m not a fan of dicks but I wouldn’t kick a girl out of bed over one”.
No interest in men at all, cis or trans. May as well be aliens, really...
The other thing is that gender, gender presentation and sexuality are all different things. I’ve known gay trans men who dress up in drag, butch straight trans women... just because one has a gender doesn’t mean one must conform to all the norms thereof.
I mean, I’m Jewish. That has certain baggage.
Even if I ditched faith I’d still be Jewish. Antisemitism is a real issue, and has been for millennia. There’s also all the genetic health disorders and risks that come with Jewish heritage. I have like 3 minimum.
I’m a woman. I would get hit on by random men while buying groceries, sometimes in lewd and threatening ways.
I’m a lesbian. My wife and I have gotten stares and rude comments even in our fairly liberal area on our fairly liberal state.
I look white, more or less. I can get away with more than many of my neighbours.
I’m disabled.
“It doesn’t matter to me” sounds great. It just, sadly, doesn’t really work.
If nothing else, I’m only attracted to women. To say gender shouldn’t matter is... not on.
I said many times before I met my wife “I’m not a fan of dicks but I wouldn’t kick a girl out of bed over one”.
No interest in men at all, cis or trans. May as well be aliens, really...
I don’t know what it is about this particular brand of non traditional gender presentation that confuses me. It’s stupid for me to be confused.
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this shit gay asf
where do I get more
where do I get more
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😶
