Dark Summoner to Dekiteiru - Vol. 2 Ch. 17

[ZenMasters]

Taking into account mangadex forum rules, specifically rule 1, I guess you consider the admins and mods all tourists as well, huh?

You got me. I kneeled. Please don't take my head.

 

[YurushiteHyacinth]

"That metaphor makes no sense because you're basically describing a business deliberately sabotaging their own work."

Oh, but it makes perfect sense because it is exactly what it is. How's Netflix's The Witcher adaptation doing? Crashed and burned, isn't it? What about the other series that walks the same path? Velma's Scooby Doo? He Man? Man in Black? Terminator? Ghost Busters? The Little Mermaid? Indiana Jones? Etc. All met the same fate. Every. single. one. Hmm, I wonder what do they all have in common?

Changing just for the sake of "change" is nothing but hubris.

Last I checked some of those franchises are doing just fine, especially Ghostbusters after the latest movie. So I guess it comes down to the skill of individual creators and management.
And you insist on characterising these changes as for their own sake and without cause, when I was just done explaining there IS a motive behind them. Or do you really think they do what they do just to antagonize people?
Also you STILL haven't explained why you think these changes are bad, you're just assuming that as fact and working your way from there. I'm still waiting.

 

[omae_Is_You]

Because it's a basic zero-effort "I see you, you're valid" gesture and transphobes won't even have the courtesy for that, going on to insist being "forced" to use correct pronouns is abusive and oppressive, like they're being made to accept a "lie". It's not a cause-and-effect, it's what it communicates.

Some people managed to lose their job for not using the correct pronouns. That is abusive and oppressive. I could see why they see this as an attempt to accept a lie when they need to submit to a value that contradicts their own.

 

[altmaria]

You got me. I kneeled. Please don't take my head.

I'd give you a warm hug if I could, you really seem to need it taking into account what you post sometimes.

 

[Kyuketsuki]

This chapter is like this for baiting certain commentators

 

[altmaria]

This chapter is like this for baiting certain commentators

And getting them banned too, which is always a plus.

 

[YurushiteHyacinth]

Some people managed to lose their job for not using the correct pronouns. That is abusive and oppressive. I could see why they see this as an attempt to accept a lie when they need to submit to a value that contradicts their own.

Any kind of hateful behaviour will get you fired if you take it too far, that doesn't stop being true depending on the recipient.
Trans people do exist. It's not "just an opinion" or up for debate. People existing, or pushing back when they see their existence being called into question, is not political.

 

[ZenMasters]

Last I checked some of those franchises are doing just fine, especially Ghostbusters after the latest movie. So I guess it comes down to the skill of individual creators and management.
And you insist on characterising these changes as for their own sake and without cause, when I was just done explaining there IS a motive behind them. Or do you really think they do what they do just to antagonize people?
Also you STILL haven't explained why you think these changes are bad, you're just assuming that as fact and working your way from there. I'm still waiting.

Are you really that daft? Even after I included a metaphor and a 4-coma??? I'll be damned.

Okay, I'll break it down words-by-words, so put this in that thick skull of yours:

Those changes are completely unnecessary and unwelcomed by the fans. The evidence? Name one series/title where the fans demands such changes. Name one series/title with such changes that are successful. I'll wait. If those changes are so good, then why are they failing?

Now your turn to answer my previous questions on Netflix's The Witcher adaptation; You explain to me why couldn't they do a faithful adaptation. You explain to me why they need to change straight characters into gay. You explain to me why they need to change the characters' races. You explain to me if they wanted diversity, why couldn't they just made a new IP. Explain that to me.

Also, Ghostbusters doing fine? I wouldn't call losing nearly USD 70 million on their latest movie "fine". A flop is a flop.

 

[ZenMasters]

I'd give you a warm hug if I could, you really seem to need it taking into account what you post sometimes.

Ew, no thanks...

 

[YurushiteHyacinth]

Are you really that daft? Even after I included a metaphor and a 4-coma??? I'll be damned.

Okay, I'll break it down words-by-words, so put this in that thick skull of yours:

Those changes are completely unnecessary and unwelcomed by the fans. The evidence? Name one series/title where the fans demands such changes. Name one series/title with such changes that are successful. I'll wait. If those changes are so good, then why are they failing?

Now your turn to answer my previous questions on Netflix's The Witcher adaptation; You explain to me why couldn't they do a faithful adaptation. You explain to me why they need to change straight characters into gay. You explain to me why they need to change the characters' races. You explain to me if they wanted diversity, why couldn't they just made a new IP. Explain that to me.

Also, Ghostbusters doing fine? I wouldn't call losing nearly USD 70 million on their latest movie "fine". A flop is a flop.

But people HAVE wanted those changes, they didn't come out of nowhere. Gay fans, or female fans, or non-white fans, they watch the same shows and play the same games you do, and have wanted for years to see their own in fiction, and eventually they were listened.
Just to name one example, Ron Friedman vouched for the creation of Arcee, the first Transformers female character, after seeing that his daughter was a big fan of the show. And it's not an isolated case, there are many other examples of franchises being updated to include these demographics based on fan feedback.

I'm not being thick, you just keep saying "these changes are BAD, and franchises are losing fans BECAUSE these changes are bad" over and over without explaining why. But you really haven't told me anything so far.

 

[Noble-6]

It's easy to forget, yeah, because it really doesn't make sense on the surface of it. I mean, by nature, non-Japanese people reading manga are opening their hearts and minds to another culture. Not to be disrespectful to them, but that's usually not something they're known for.
I'm guessing their mental image of Japan is a rigid and stereotypical one. A conservative paradise where men are men, women are women and children obey their parents. And "the woke" had never reached their shores.

It's... usually a pretty severe wake-up call when I explain things like how they have their own word for nonbinary. ("X-Gender", which is badass) Or indeed just how crazy bisexual samurai were. Or even classic okama culture, for all of its issues. And so on and so on. Heck a lot of us in the LGBT community first became of ourselves thanks to super gay anime of the 90's.

(It's why Devil-kun shouldn't give up just because his first doujin flopped! He'll find his audience if he keeps at it!)

People can enjoy the culture of others without wanting them to influence their own or to influence theirs, it's what has been done for several millennia until now
There's nothing wrong with wanting every culture and country to have their own borders and culture and respecting them as long as you remain consistent with that logic,
but away with you, if you wish every country to become the exact same copy carbon of the other then so be it, but you would rather be tasteless and dull

 

[phil777]

Sauce, I need two dumbasess shoved into cute bodies

Oh that? It's about taming monsters and some goddess. It was completed more or less recently, if memory serves. Just so you know, this is mostly the only scene where the guy copies the body of one of his "tamed" monsters (in this case, the goddess) while the genderbent demon (turned into a succubus, because of course you would. ) tries to get even with him.

 

[phil777]

Now then, I will attempt to close my discussion here by saying I do enjoy gender bending when it turns a guy into a girl, ok? Thank you and see you next time.

 

[ZenMasters]

But people HAVE wanted those changes, they didn't come out of nowhere. Gay fans, or female fans, or non-white fans, they watch the same shows and play the same games you do, and have wanted for years to see their own in fiction, and eventually they were listened.
Just to name one example, Ron Friedman vouched for the creation of Arcee, the first Transformers female character, after seeing that his daughter was a big fan of the show. And it's not an isolated case, there are many other examples of franchises being updated to include these demographics based on fan feedback.

I'm not being thick, you just keep saying "these changes are BAD, and franchises are losing fans BECAUSE these changes are bad" over and over without explaining why. But you really haven't told me anything so far.

"But people HAVE wanted those changes"

Oh, really? Then can you explain why they're failing?

I'm not being thick, you just keep saying "these changes are BAD, and franchises are losing fans BECAUSE these changes are bad" over and over without explaining why. But you really haven't told me anything so far.

No, you are thick. You deliberately missing my point because you're incapable of accepting simple logic.

Those changes are bad because it is unnecessary and unwelcomed. Would you change the shape of a tire to triangle just for the sake of it? Would you change the taste of water to sour/sweet? People drink water because it is tasteless and refreshing. If you want to change the taste of water, you invent a new product (flavored water), not change the existing product. When people doesn't want the story to change, especially if they're a bad change, they have every right to be upset and stop reading/watching said story. Oh, then what happens if people do that? Easy, the most important point being less revenue for media. What happens if the media doesn't get enough money to continue? Extremely easy, it'll just die. So the conclusion? It's bad for the story, it's bad for the fans. Literally everyone loses. You tell me, who won here?

True, some things need to change, but SOME THINGS ALSO DOESN'T NEED TO CHANGE.
You're using Mangadex, right? How is it? Good? Hmm, what are some of the things you like about it? They almost never have ads? Huh, well, how about we change thatso that Mangadex to have ads like a 3rd-tier manga piracy site! What, people don't want it? Well, I want it, so what's your problem?

You want to know why these "changes" are often brought upon existing IP? Because most new IPs would just die like a dog in a ditch.

You said that people wanted those changes. Alright, these "people" are how many % of the fanbase, again? 1%? 5%? Wow, that'll explain a lot why those series/titles are falling like flies. Who would've thought that alienating the majority of your target and existing audience would kill you? That's like, totally unreal.

You still haven't answered my question. Why? I'm still waiting.

 

[YurushiteHyacinth]

Words

See, there's your mistake. You're assuming fans wanting or otherwise responding positively to those changes are limited exclusively to those minorities, instead of including white/male/straight fans who are perfectly fine with them. You're basically saying "absolutely no-one who isn't these people would want what they want", which is patently untrue. Also, are you seriously equating the addition of gay\non-white characters to putting ads on a site?
So far, it seems to me like the only one throwing a tantrum because a franchise isn't specifically catering to them is you.

By the way, when you talk about the 70 million loss you're referring to the 2016 Ghostbusters movie. A new one called Ghostbusters: Afterlife came out in 2021, which grossed 200 millions globally and was a lot better received. A new game came out last year too, and another one is due this fall. So, tell me again how is that franchise dead exactly?

 

[altmaria]

Those changes are bad because it is unnecessary and unwelcomed.

You sound like a 50-year-old that has been in a coma for the past 25 years and just woke up, angry at the world for moving on without you. For someone that loves calling people you don't agree with tourists, you sure sound like an outsider (that's probably why you project the term so much). Those changes already happened, and they are here to stay whether you like it or not, because fan communities are in constant flux, and it's really strange you only noticing that now.

 

[ZenMasters]

See, there's your mistake. You're assuming fans wanting or otherwise responding positively to those changes are limited exclusively to those minorities, instead of including white/male/straight fans who are perfectly fine with them. You're basically saying "absolutely no-one who isn't these people would want what they want", which is patently untrue. Also, are you seriously equating the addition of gay\non-white characters to putting ads on a site?
So far, it seems to me like the only one throwing a tantrum because a franchise isn't specifically catering to them is you.

By the way, when you talk about the 70 million loss you're referring to the 2016 Ghostbusters movie. A new one called Ghostbusters: Afterlife came out in 2021, which grossed 200 millions globally and was a lot better received. A new game came out last year too, and another one is due this fall. So, tell me again how is that franchise dead exactly?

...what? When have I included race/sexual orientation anywhere in my statement about majority & minority? That statement was meant for universal fanbase. Doesn't matter what your race is or what your sexual orientation is, if what you want aligns with most people, then you're in the majority, and vice versa. It's nothing rocket science.

A friend of mine, the very reason why I got into The Witcher series, is the most passionate man I ever knew about the franchise. When Henry Cavill left the production, he got so upset he went into an hour rant about why the adaptation is so garbage. And you want to know the best part? He's african-american.

absolutely no-one who isn't these people would want what they want"

I didn't said that, stop putting words into my mouth.

I used putting ads on Mangadex as an example on why there are some things that doesn't need to be changed. D

Also, I can see that you're doing your absolute best to evading my questions. I wonder why that is, hmm.

And for the Ghostbusters, you got me on that one. Do forgive me for my outdated knowledge. But, the point still stands, they tried to do an unwarranted changes, and failed miserably. They learned and rectify their mistake with the latest movie, it seems? I haven't seen it, so I can't say.

 

[ZenMasters]

You sound like a 50-year-old that has been in a coma for the past 25 years and just woke up, angry at the world for moving on without you. For someone that loves calling people you don't agree with tourists, you sure sound like an outsider (that's probably why you project the term so much). Those changes already happened, and they are here to stay whether you like it or not, because fan communities are in constant flux, and it's really strange you only noticing that now.

Yeah? How strange, but as I remember it in pre-2018 era, everytime a genderbent appear, the discussion would be full of people making corny and horny jokes. And yet, here you are, claiming that it sparks a trans debate instead. Maybe you're right, maybe I am stuck in the past; missing the time when people are there reading manga and watching anime to genuinely have a good time, without bringing any real-life bullshit.

 

[altmaria]

Yeah? How strange, but as I remember it in pre-2018 era, everytime a genderbent appear, the discussion would be full of people making corny and horny jokes.

It sounds like you frequented very sheltered communities then. I remember seeing IRC users loving to project themselves into genderbent characters since the late 90s, as Japanese media has been pioneering this for a long time, even if engaging in toxic tropes, it was considered better than nothing (since western media was so far behind back then). Later one, and still before the social media booms, you had tons of forums dedicated to it. Then in 2010's people migrated to reddit comunities and other social media, but again, people relating to queer and genderbent characters have always been around.

Maybe in 2018 you simply started noticing them and feeling personally attacked.

And yet, here you are, claiming that it sparks a trans debate instead.

It's people like you that are so eager to debate it, so it's kinda funny to see you complain about it. Don't insult people or ask for people to elaborate if you don't like people actually interacting with your offhand comments.

Maybe you're right, maybe I am stuck in the past; missing the time when people are there reading manga and watching anime to genuinely have a good time, without bringing any real-life bullshit.

Just because you don't, doesn't mean no one else does either. You know, projection as usual.
Still, it's a shame you feel like this, but it's not all that surprising either. Your response with disgust over me trying to be friendly is also quite telling: You seem to want to remain angry.

 

[Grevados]

Pretty hard to ignore them when they throw a tantrum when you use the correct pronouns.

The word "correct" is really confusing me in this statement. Are you saying trans people get upset when you use the pronouns applied to their gender at birth or the ones they would choose to answer to? If it's the former then they're just reacting as one might expect to being addressed by everyone as whatever their most hated childhood nickname was, and you're just an asshole.