Doughnuts Under a Crescent Moon - Vol. 1 Ch. 3 - One Small Step
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@Madmac—
Peterson's point is that truly getting just one's own living space well ordered is genuinely very difficult, yet many people who cannot do it believe that they know how to order an entire nation or even the world.
And the first part of that point is why I think that his manga trope is problematic. Most real people with disordered homes would not get them well ordered in less time than weeks, let alone in a day, even if the home were a Tokyo apartment.
Peterson's point is that truly getting just one's own living space well ordered is genuinely very difficult, yet many people who cannot do it believe that they know how to order an entire nation or even the world.
And the first part of that point is why I think that his manga trope is problematic. Most real people with disordered homes would not get them well ordered in less time than weeks, let alone in a day, even if the home were a Tokyo apartment.
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@Madmac @Oeconomist
Breaking down big problems into small manageable problems has nothing to do with Jordan Peterson. It's been a part of systematic problem solving since at least 200 BC in Babylonia.
I would suggest that it is far more likely that the author is taking inspiration from the Kaizen approach, a small step improvement method which is popular in Japan.
Breaking down big problems into small manageable problems has nothing to do with Jordan Peterson. It's been a part of systematic problem solving since at least 200 BC in Babylonia.
I would suggest that it is far more likely that the author is taking inspiration from the Kaizen approach, a small step improvement method which is popular in Japan.
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As I do some late night cooking, I’m now catching up to this one.
And I don’t wanna get ahead of myself... but this manga has all the signs of a slowly burning gorgeous journey of discovery. Neatly paced reveal of new characters, slow but noticeable progression, relatable dialogue... this can really turn out to be my new Yagate.
I feel a moment of triumph or slap to the face is due in the next two or three chapters.
And I don’t wanna get ahead of myself... but this manga has all the signs of a slowly burning gorgeous journey of discovery. Neatly paced reveal of new characters, slow but noticeable progression, relatable dialogue... this can really turn out to be my new Yagate.
I feel a moment of triumph or slap to the face is due in the next two or three chapters.
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@icekatze—
I'm not sure why you tagged me. I didn't say that Peterson originated some idea of breaking problems into smaller pieces; I noted what the actual point is of his suggestion about cleaning one's room, which is about over-estimating one's competence to prescribe social change. And I raised an objection to stories in which people with disordered homes quickly brought them into good order.
I'm not sure why you tagged me. I didn't say that Peterson originated some idea of breaking problems into smaller pieces; I noted what the actual point is of his suggestion about cleaning one's room, which is about over-estimating one's competence to prescribe social change. And I raised an objection to stories in which people with disordered homes quickly brought them into good order.
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@Oeconomist
I'm a bit confused as to whether you want to be part of the discussion or not. People with compulsive hoarding issues or small children will certainly have difficulties getting messes cleaned up, but I would suggest that most people are capable of cleaning up their messes. I've never had a roommate that couldn't get things cleaned up for guests, spring cleaning, or because they'd been told they'd put it off long enough.
I've only known two people who weren't able to clean up in time to meet the move-out deadline for an apartment, and one of them was a 96 year old.
I'm a bit confused as to whether you want to be part of the discussion or not. People with compulsive hoarding issues or small children will certainly have difficulties getting messes cleaned up, but I would suggest that most people are capable of cleaning up their messes. I've never had a roommate that couldn't get things cleaned up for guests, spring cleaning, or because they'd been told they'd put it off long enough.
I've only known two people who weren't able to clean up in time to meet the move-out deadline for an apartment, and one of them was a 96 year old.
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@icekatze—
It would make sense to tag me for a comment that contradicted or followed from what I'd said, but not for a comment otherwise about Madmac's remark.
Most people whose living spaces are so disordered as to be concerning may be able to get them into better shape in about a month, but few can do so in a day. And, exactly because roommates act as something of a brake on disorder, the situation will typically be worse for a person who lives alone, as in the case of one of these characters; just getting that sink full of dishes washed would be about what to expect. There's a bit of magical thinking in these manga that have a character who has done a day's work then getting his or her home in order in an evening.
It would make sense to tag me for a comment that contradicted or followed from what I'd said, but not for a comment otherwise about Madmac's remark.
Most people whose living spaces are so disordered as to be concerning may be able to get them into better shape in about a month, but few can do so in a day. And, exactly because roommates act as something of a brake on disorder, the situation will typically be worse for a person who lives alone, as in the case of one of these characters; just getting that sink full of dishes washed would be about what to expect. There's a bit of magical thinking in these manga that have a character who has done a day's work then getting his or her home in order in an evening.
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@Oeconomist
I was contradicting you though? It seems that my poor communication skills have failed me again, but Kaizen method is about doing things that can be accomplished in a short amount of time, so I figured it was relevant.
A messy room is not a binary state, nor is concern. Studies have shown that impairment of focus increases gradually as visual clutter increases, there's no single point where it goes from being an issue to not an issue.1 Outside of people who have compulsive hoarding problems, taking a month to clean a single room is so far outside of my personal experience that I can't really imagine it. Elementary age children who are able to make a huge mess on a weekly basis can clean up their room in a day. Even cleaning up a relative's basement that flooded only took a weekend.
The fact that Satou is said to have everything together at work, but not in her room; and that Uno uses detergent enough to run out suggests that they don't have serious psychological issues preventing them from cleaning. It seems to me that they either have compartmentalized their motivation between work and home, or that stress and circumstances are driving their priorities.
Anyway, I'll stop here. I really loved the chapter, but arguing isn't nearly as enjoyable. I appreciate you taking the time to humor me though, so even if it was unpleasant, thank you all the same.
1: Interactions of top-down and bottom-up mechanisms in human visual cortex. McMains S, Kastner S. Princeton Neuroscience Institute.
I was contradicting you though? It seems that my poor communication skills have failed me again, but Kaizen method is about doing things that can be accomplished in a short amount of time, so I figured it was relevant.
A messy room is not a binary state, nor is concern. Studies have shown that impairment of focus increases gradually as visual clutter increases, there's no single point where it goes from being an issue to not an issue.1 Outside of people who have compulsive hoarding problems, taking a month to clean a single room is so far outside of my personal experience that I can't really imagine it. Elementary age children who are able to make a huge mess on a weekly basis can clean up their room in a day. Even cleaning up a relative's basement that flooded only took a weekend.
The fact that Satou is said to have everything together at work, but not in her room; and that Uno uses detergent enough to run out suggests that they don't have serious psychological issues preventing them from cleaning. It seems to me that they either have compartmentalized their motivation between work and home, or that stress and circumstances are driving their priorities.
Anyway, I'll stop here. I really loved the chapter, but arguing isn't nearly as enjoyable. I appreciate you taking the time to humor me though, so even if it was unpleasant, thank you all the same.
1: Interactions of top-down and bottom-up mechanisms in human visual cortex. McMains S, Kastner S. Princeton Neuroscience Institute.
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@icekatze—
To say that a psychological method focusses upon things that can be done in a short amount of time does not contradict a claim that some specific task cannot be done in a short amount of time.
You're right that perceived disorder is not dichotomous, but you miss the proper application of that point here. And your introduction of what philosophers call “the problem of heaps” is not helpful; while there is not a well-defined line separating living spaces that are considered to be in reasonably good order from those that are considered to be in poor order, there certainly are spaces about which few would feel or express concern.
I have encountering many people who don't won a great many things (which precludes their being classified as having a hoarding disorder) but struggle greatly to get their things in order. Rather that hoarding disorder, this problem can be a result of learned helplessness, which as it happens would perfectly conform to what we know of one of the characters. When I encounter someone who, as an adult, seems unable to keep his or her living space in order, I ask about how that person's parents responded to his or her efforts as a child to clean his or her room. With only one exception, the people whom I've asked have reported that his or her parent would always respond “I don't see any difference.” A parent inculcated a sense of futility. There are people who manage to own rather a lot of things without chaos, and then don't get classified as having hoarding disorder; my guess is that a lot of cases of learned helpless are misdiagnosed as hoarding disorder.
(The aforementioned one exception said that she was just never shown how to clean her space, because her parents paid little attention to her.)
There isn't an “either” separating cases of stress from those of compartmentalization; the latter is likely a result of the former. It's a given that these two women are, each in her own way, compartmentalized, though the compartment in which Uno is most successful is that of personal appearance and she seems to be in trouble everywhere else. Plausibly, some of the stress that Uno feels and that Satou may possibly feel has been relieved by the personal connection that the two have made, but much of the stress would largely still be there, and it remains implausible that both would get her living space in order that evening.
And, yes, this discussion is not fun.
EDIT (I should have made this point earlier; I plead fatigue.): It's important to distinguish order from boxed chaos. If one cannot quickly locate anything, then things are not in order. Preparing to move or making things look acceptable for guests often results in greater disorder.
To say that a psychological method focusses upon things that can be done in a short amount of time does not contradict a claim that some specific task cannot be done in a short amount of time.
You're right that perceived disorder is not dichotomous, but you miss the proper application of that point here. And your introduction of what philosophers call “the problem of heaps” is not helpful; while there is not a well-defined line separating living spaces that are considered to be in reasonably good order from those that are considered to be in poor order, there certainly are spaces about which few would feel or express concern.
I have encountering many people who don't won a great many things (which precludes their being classified as having a hoarding disorder) but struggle greatly to get their things in order. Rather that hoarding disorder, this problem can be a result of learned helplessness, which as it happens would perfectly conform to what we know of one of the characters. When I encounter someone who, as an adult, seems unable to keep his or her living space in order, I ask about how that person's parents responded to his or her efforts as a child to clean his or her room. With only one exception, the people whom I've asked have reported that his or her parent would always respond “I don't see any difference.” A parent inculcated a sense of futility. There are people who manage to own rather a lot of things without chaos, and then don't get classified as having hoarding disorder; my guess is that a lot of cases of learned helpless are misdiagnosed as hoarding disorder.
(The aforementioned one exception said that she was just never shown how to clean her space, because her parents paid little attention to her.)
There isn't an “either” separating cases of stress from those of compartmentalization; the latter is likely a result of the former. It's a given that these two women are, each in her own way, compartmentalized, though the compartment in which Uno is most successful is that of personal appearance and she seems to be in trouble everywhere else. Plausibly, some of the stress that Uno feels and that Satou may possibly feel has been relieved by the personal connection that the two have made, but much of the stress would largely still be there, and it remains implausible that both would get her living space in order that evening.
And, yes, this discussion is not fun.
EDIT (I should have made this point earlier; I plead fatigue.): It's important to distinguish order from boxed chaos. If one cannot quickly locate anything, then things are not in order. Preparing to move or making things look acceptable for guests often results in greater disorder.
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@Cable_TV—
Peterson probably has only one fan here. I'm not a fan; I doubt that @icekatze is a fan; and even @Madmac might not be a fan. (And @Madmac mentioned Peterson only en passant.) But I do have some interest in not having anyone's ideas misrepresented. That puts me in marked contrast with people such as you, who try to erect social firewalls between people and the ideas that you dislike.
Peterson probably has only one fan here. I'm not a fan; I doubt that @icekatze is a fan; and even @Madmac might not be a fan. (And @Madmac mentioned Peterson only en passant.) But I do have some interest in not having anyone's ideas misrepresented. That puts me in marked contrast with people such as you, who try to erect social firewalls between people and the ideas that you dislike.
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