Dragon and Chameleon - Ch. 20 - The Greatest Manga of All Time

[MangaDex]

 

[Teasday]

Volume 4 doesn't come out until May, so we're using magazine raws for now. You might've noticed we're not bothering with translating the copywritten stuff this time, mainly because it's kind of a pain in the ass but also because the current plan is to update the relevant pages with volume raws once they come out.

The can that Orochi's holding at the end there is clearly modeled after Strong Zero 9%, a chuuhai which I can attest to being quite tasty though it will, for obvious reasons, sneak up on you if you keep sipping them.

 

[konig]

more snake mommy...

 

[xyzzy]

So we're getting the Assistant Gathering arc now. Neat.

Also didn't really think of the high fantasy vs. low fantasy divide. A quick research shows that the terms do exist, and I was gonna do a massive writeup on it before realizing that I was mixing it up with hard vs. soft fiction. But yeah, both situations exist, though creation-wise high fantasy is probably a bit harder because you'll have to do a metric fuckload of worldbuilding for your inquisitive readers, while low fantasy is just "it's our Earth, but with wizards or some shit"

 

[Isopotonic]

SNAKE SHOT! DROP SHOT! MOON VOLLEYYYYY!

 

[Sakuyadorf]

I hope this is a long ass manga
cause I am ready for this ride

 

[Doomroar]

You know Garyou's ideal mechanic is a baddie, she is not quite Orochi but she has it going on

Snake mommy... getting people dead drunk is not really a very... HR friendly way of making connections, that's kind of a lawsuit waiting to happen

Would i let is slide if she did it to me? brah, i would fall in line sober, but still tho, doesn't means it is right!

 

[Kushikime]

Thanks for the chapter!!

 

[Amariithynar]

So we're getting the Assistant Gathering arc now. Neat.

Also didn't really think of the high fantasy vs. low fantasy divide. A quick research shows that the terms do exist, and I was gonna do a massive writeup on it before realizing that I was mixing it up with hard vs. soft fiction. But yeah, both situations exist, though creation-wise high fantasy is probably a bit harder because you'll have to do a metric fuckload of worldbuilding for your inquisitive readers, while low fantasy is just "it's our Earth, but with wizards or some shit"

The definitions of hard and soft sci-fi are actually fairly close to those of high and low fantasy, conceptually, but in reverse; high fantasy will easily say "wizards did it" and that's that, because the magic of the world is all pervasive and can quite simply do just that, because it is, "the world of heroes and gods and titans..., a world of powers and passions and moments of ecstasy far greater than anything we meet outside the imagination". Low fantasy, however, is more akin to a "magical realism"; the world can still be fantastical, but it's still based in rules and forms that restrict and define how magic may operate within the confines of the society that it is built upon, and the focus is not on the magic but on the people; a lot of what is termed "urban fantasy" is also low fantasy, but that doesn't mean something taking place in the modern world is necessarily low fantasy, either; Fate/Stay Night would definitely be considered High Fantasy, as would the entirety of the TYPE-MOON multiverses. Long story short, High fantasy is fantasy that is epic in the nature of either it's settings or characters vs. low fantasy which features less mythic and more "human" characters and scope.

The conceptualization that "high fantasy" simply means, "takes place in a fantastical world", and "low fantasy" means, "takes place in our world where magic intrudes", is actually a (bad) attempt to redefine the genres and give them sharply delineating facets different from how it was originally acknowledged by Lloyd Alexander, who coined the term to begin with.

 

[Shyromy]

I need more, inject this series into my veins!!!!!!

 

[exxeld]

As usual the art continues to impress. I predict Hanagami will find the newbie working at a bar n recruit him from there judging from the ending of the chapter too lmao.

 

[H4CK3R]

The definitions of hard and soft sci-fi are actually fairly close to those of high and low fantasy, conceptually, but in reverse; high fantasy will easily say "wizards did it" and that's that, because the magic of the world is all pervasive and can quite simply do just that, because it is, "the world of heroes and gods and titans..., a world of powers and passions and moments of ecstasy far greater than anything we meet outside the imagination". Low fantasy, however, is more akin to a "magical realism"; the world can still be fantastical, but it's still based in rules and forms that restrict and define how magic may operate within the confines of the society that it is built upon, and the focus is not on the magic but on the people; a lot of what is termed "urban fantasy" is also low fantasy, but that doesn't mean something taking place in the modern world is necessarily low fantasy, either; Fate/Stay Night would definitely be considered High Fantasy, as would the entirety of the TYPE-MOON multiverses. Long story short, High fantasy is fantasy that is epic in the nature of either it's settings or characters vs. low fantasy which features less mythic and more "human" characters and scope.

The conceptualization that "high fantasy" simply means, "takes place in a fantastical world", and "low fantasy" means, "takes place in our world where magic intrudes", is actually a (bad) attempt to redefine the genres and give them sharply delineating facets different from how it was originally acknowledged by Lloyd Alexander, who coined the term to begin with.

wait im confused, are you mad at the authors attempt to define those words or him using those words?

 

[Teasday]

The conceptualization that "high fantasy" simply means, "takes place in a fantastical world", and "low fantasy" means, "takes place in our world where magic intrudes", is actually a (bad) attempt to redefine the genres and give them sharply delineating facets different from how it was originally acknowledged by Lloyd Alexander, who coined the term to begin with.

Or it's more of a quick, one-panel summary specifically from the perspective of what would be required of an assistant working on a serialization in the genre, rather than an essay on their exact differences and definitions.

 

[mikenogen]

Assistants could carried the art of the manga, and sometime they could make it out of place. It's really important for author's to find assistant that matches their style. Some cases, when an assistant leaves to make their own serialization, a manga's art could decline or sometimes changed. One of the most visible is on Tatsuki Fujimoto's work since you can see in CSM part 2 art has declined IMHO since many of his assistant from part 1 and Fire Punch had moved on to other works. It shows how crucial an assistant can be.

Anyway it's just my personal opinion. This is not an absolute fact and I might be wrong.

 

[K_Takuya]

Wahoo, we're in the team management side of the manga production. I guess he fits the role of "artisan"? his skill is also portrayed as a japanese sword so he fits the picture.
Though, in management standpoint wouldn't the inability to meet deadlines be a dealbreaker? Like, unless it's like Miura level of fame i'd reckon it's impossible to survive the manga production world while being slow.

 

[Amariithynar]

wait im confused, are you mad at the authors attempt to define those words or him using those words?

Or it's more of a quick, one-panel summary specifically from the perspective of what would be required of an assistant working on a serialization in the genre, rather than an essay on their exact differences and definitions.

Except those incorrect definitions have been consistantly pushed by a loud few, especially in the media sphere, to try and replace the original definitions in the past couple decades, trying to displace what they mean with a much more genericized concept; they are attempting to take the roots, the connections to the epic, out of it, flattening what makes high fantasy into high fantasy and making it just "it's another world", and vis a vis flattening low fantasy in turn. Whether the author knew about that and deliberately supported the incorrect definitions or was simply incorrectly informed about the difference (more than possible), though, I couldn't say. Either way, what I was addressing in primary was simply Xyxxy's post, which I quoted, and addressed in specific.

 

[AlphaTM]

Except those incorrect definitions have been consistantly pushed by a loud few, especially in the media sphere, to try and replace the original definitions in the past couple decades, trying to displace what they mean with a much more genericized concept; they are attempting to take the roots, the connections to the epic, out of it, flattening what makes high fantasy into high fantasy and making it just "it's another world", and vis a vis flattening low fantasy in turn. Whether the author knew about that and deliberately supported the incorrect definitions or was simply incorrectly informed about the difference (more than possible), though, I couldn't say. Either way, what I was addressing in primary was simply Xyxxy's post, which I quoted, and addressed in specific.

I understand where you're coming from and all, this is clearly something you've spent a lot of time thinking about, but I suppose I'd say that it's worth bearing in mind that language is a malleable, living thing. What a word means today isn't necessarily what it's going to mean in a year, or a decade, or more. This is a natural process born of general discussion and culture, and typically isn't what I'd call a deliberate attempt to replace meanings. Take, for instance, isekai, which has had its meaning broadened considerably to apply to essentially any anime/manga in a fantasy setting, when the purpose of the term was to convey a very distinct "fish out of water" element. This broader meaning is used all the time now, with the genre label being applied even to things like Delicious in Dungeon.

Or, just take "anime" itself. I'm the kind of person who will see people refer to Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Netflix Castlevania animated series as anime and roll my eyes because anime is a specific thing and it'd be more accurate to call those anime inspired. But the reality is words only mean what people agree that they mean. And anime "MEANS" a "cartoon" that's not as cartoony as something like Spongebob to a lot of people.

But I think the more salient point here is that this is a Japanese work and its use of the terms "High fantasy" and "Low fantasy" are as loan words, and loan words add an entirely new layer to the idea of the meaning of a word (loan words such as isekai or anime). I know you're reading this in English, so it's not entirely fair to chide you for not considering the context of the Japanese script, but if you're going to ascribe intention to the author, then it might help to do so. And in the context of Japanese, whatever origin an English term may have had matters less and less.

 

[Teasday]

Incidentally, this reminds me of Lucky Star 17 years ago having a segment about the word tsundere being redefined, and back then it was only 5 years old. It's changed since then, too.

 

[Amariithynar]

I understand where you're coming from and all, this is clearly something you've spent a lot of time thinking about, but I suppose I'd say that it's worth bearing in mind that language is a malleable, living thing. What a word means today isn't necessarily what it's going to mean in a year, or a decade, or more. This is a natural process born of general discussion and culture, and typically isn't what I'd call a deliberate attempt to replace meanings. Take, for instance, isekai, which has had its meaning broadened considerably to apply to essentially any anime/manga in a fantasy setting, when the purpose of the term was to convey a very distinct "fish out of water" element. This broader meaning is used all the time now, with the genre label being applied even to things like Delicious in Dungeon.

Or, just take "anime" itself. I'm the kind of person who will see people refer to Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Netflix Castlevania animated series as anime and roll my eyes because anime is a specific thing and it'd be more accurate to call those anime inspired. But the reality is words only mean what people agree that they mean. And anime "MEANS" a "cartoon" that's not as cartoony as something like Spongebob to a lot of people.

But I think the more salient point here is that this is a Japanese work and its use of the terms "High fantasy" and "Low fantasy" are as loan words, and loan words add an entirely new layer to the idea of the meaning of a word (loan words such as isekai or anime). I know you're reading this in English, so it's not entirely fair to chide you for not considering the context of the Japanese script, but if you're going to ascribe intention to the author, then it might help to do so. And in the context of Japanese, whatever origin an English term may have had matters less and less.

There's a difference between a natural change in meaning where usage has shifted its meaning and one where there is a particular group of Gretchens trying to make "fetch" a thing (kudos if you get the reference). This is not the former, but the latter.

Isekai, meaning "another world" and carrying the connotation of being transported to somewhere else, has not expanded to mean "any anime/manga in a fantasy setting", so no idea what you're talking about; there's a certain amount of ignorance about what Isekai is among some people, where assumptions by some are made as to the collection of tropes that are common in Isekai stories involving it being a fantasy setting with an extremely overpowered hero (since those are a dime a dozen within the genre, so you're more likely to be right than not over the past decade with that assumption), but they are relatively easily corrected when such claims are made. Additionally, Dungeon Meshi is correctly labeled an isekai, as well, considering

Spoiler

that the entire dungeon is in fact another dimension that has intruded into and is merging with their world, personified by the various Demons that interact with the various dungeon lords

.

"Anime" is a corruption that derives ultimately from the phrase "Japanese animation" (becoming "Japanimation", then "Japanime" and finally just "anime"; it's not a loan word, unlike "Isekai" or "Otaku"), but it was always about the aesthetic, the style, and the different cultural core behind it. Thus why things like Neo Yokio, while animated by Studio Deen and having a common anime aesthetic, aren't really widely considered anime, because it's produced with a Western style and cultural core behind it. ATLA, while western-produced, distinctly had a east- or even pan-asian cultural core, aesthetic, and style to it, even with the animation made primarily by the South Korean studios JM Animation, DR Movie, and MOI Animation; unless you knew that it was produced by a couple of Nickelodeon Studio people, you'd never guess it wasn't anime, at first glance (Korra, on the other hand, definitely has a different cultural core and style, and it shows). It is more correct to call ATLA "anime-inspired", but it's understandable. This all said? "anime" loaned back to Japanese from English, really does just mean "animation", of all forms, so calling them "cartoons" isn't inaccurate, either; though there it's without the context, and often prejudice, that the word evokes in the West (and with its own set of cultural contexts and prejudices). Same with "manga" and "comics".

As for it being a loanword and thus there being another layer of meaning involved: Yeah, that is true. Which is why, yet again I'm having to say this, I addressed what Xyxxy was saying, rather than directed it towards the author's lines of [世界を丸ごと創造する【ハイファンタジー】必要なのは 作者の設定への理解とその余地を埋める創造力] and [現代を舞台に 漫画的嘘を展開する【ローファンタジー】必要なのは 『リアルな描写。 実際の物の 大きさ・比率を 正しく描く正確性], which I still hold to be incorrect usage even within the context of it being loaned (since even the JP wiki acknowledges that isn't the meaning and acknowledges Lloyd Alexander's origination and meaning, though isekai's popularity has attached to it, so there's a conflated concept of "high fantasy = other world" in Japanese context).

For consideration: The world of Conan The Barbarian is low fantasy, even though it is a completely fantastical world. Similarly, the world of Gor of John Norman's books. Both are completely different worlds, but the focus is on the characters and their interactions, rather than gods and demons and other beings of eldritch power; similarly, the Chronicles of Narnia, though they deal with a whole multiverse of other worlds, is very much low fantasy. By contrast, even the least of the stories of H.P. Lovecraft and all the other contemporary authors he borrowed from or that borrowed from him are all high fantasy, even though they theoretically take place in our world. Same with stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh, or The Iliad, or The Odyssey, among other stories contemporary to them, though they all take place here on Earth; it is the story and the focus that determine it, not whether it's another world or not.

 

[AcidVlad]

As always chapter is kino AF