Fate/type Redline - Vol. 2 Ch. 7.2

[DukeHermann]

@BloodySorcerer Can you provide a source for this hunting of a murderer as well as him being identified as Okada Izo? The only thing I found through these keywords is some drama called Shinichi Kudo and the Kyoto Shinsengumi Murder Case. In wikipedia he is said to have been captured by an unnamed shogunate officer, surely someone as popular as okita souji having personally captured one of the most famous criminals of the time would have been a noteworthy episode of his life and spread widely even in the west (especially after his FGO appearance). It seems far more likely that these games and stories simply adopted this fictional encounter of two famous contemporaries into their stories as an interesting event, after all, such dramatic coincidences are rare to come by in real life. The date of Okada's arrest and the Ikedaya Incident are also too close to each other, the former happening in june and the latter in july of the same year, This is pure speculation with absolutely no basis except pure guesswork but I imagine the Shinsengumi would be too busy with the potential insurrectionist gathering close at hand (they even kidnapped and possibly tortured one of its members for information) to be leading large scale manhunts. Finally, at least in fate they haven't met at all, otherwise they would recognize each other like Chiron recognized Achilles in Apocrypha. Okada has certainly met Shinsengumi members (identifying okita's swordsmanship as a wolf of mibu's) but not okita souji.

 

[BloodySorcerer]

@DukeHermann Don't trust Fate on lore accuracy, i'm not talking about the genderbending thing because to me such differences are irrelevant, I'm talking about them bending acchievements, such as Gilgamesh being considered one of the strongest servants when Heracles have easily similar acchievements in his own as well as many other Greek heroes, some of which can easily equal Heracles, as well as how overplayed Altria is in the story, and how underplayed Chulainn, an actual demi god, is compared to her.
The hunt for Izo can easily be seen in anime and games, It appeared in Peacemaker Kurogane, if I remember right, and there's a pretty obscure samurai game in PS2 which features Souji Okita as the main character, and Izo is the main villain of the second chapter, I believe. WHat I find more unbelievable is for an unknown member of the Shinsengumi to have made the capture all by himself with no one else to help investigate the incidents and no higher authority behind it.

 

[DukeHermann]

@BloodySorcerer I know Fate lore is not accurate, you miss my final point. You asked why is he not getting destroyed in this manga if he was in real life by okita souji and my final point was to say that regardless of actual real life facts, he did not meet or fight him in nasuverse ever. And also, Peacemaker Kurogane and anime and games in general having the Shinsengumi hunt Izo is no evidence of a real life meeting between Okita and Izo, if nothing else it seems to make it likelier that this hunt and meeting was created to fit the narrative of a notorious villain being taken down by a valorous hero. Yes, there should have been investigations to find him however they probably were not done by the Shinsengumi, a small group, likely investigated and apprehended in a regular and boring manner by the government (the shogunate) or the local lord (if we interpret shogunate official as one of the state's vassals) to keep public order. Also, although fate exaggerates many achievements and underplays others, their lack of a meeting also hints that Japan doesn't see a meeting with Okita Souji as a widespread anecdote about his life, partially curbing the concern of lacking critical information due to no access to japanese information sources. As I wrote this reply, I checked the japanese wiki with google translate and there is no mention of the Shinsengumi once in his life besides the fictional work section, he was caught stealing from a merchant's house and arrested with no Shinsengumi involvement.

 

[BloodySorcerer]

"their lack of a meeting also hints that Japan doesn't see a meeting with Okita Souji as a widespread anecdote about his life"

No, that's not what it means, what it means is that the people at Type Moon "doesn't see a meeting with Okita Souji as a widespread anecdote about his life". Type Moon doesn't represent Japan as a whole, the existence of stories in which he meets them is a clear evidence of this fact.

"Yes, there should have been investigations to find him however they probably were not done by the Shinsengumi, a small group, likely investigated and apprehended in a regular and boring manner by the government (the shogunate) or the local lord (if we interpret shogunate official as one of the state's vassals) to keep public order"

Except that it was indeed a member of the Shinsengumi to make the apprehension. Although it was only an irrelevant(historywise, since his name is unknown and there are no other documents on this) member to do it, it was still the Shinsengumi and therefore they were the ones to conduct the investigation.

How do I know that the Shinsengumi were behind it? Read this:
"After the Coup of August 18, the Kinnoto lost its momentum. When TAKECHI returned to Tosa, Izo changed his name to Tetsuzo DOI, and concealed himself alone in Kyoto. However, around June of 1864, he was captured by a shogunate official, and on being tattooed, he was banished from the capital Kyoto; at the same time, an official of the Tosa Domain captured him, and deported him to his hometown."
Do you know what was the main police force of Kyoto during that time period?
The recently promoted Mibu Roshigumi(fact that happened in 1863), now named Shinsengumi and tasked with patroling the streets of Kyoto as well as protecting important officials to the government.
Izo was one of the 4 Assassins employed to murder important officers and nobles during that time period, guess who would make the perfect target and was currently hiding in the Shinsengumi jurisdiction?

 

[DukeHermann]

@BloodySorcerer There was no investigation, though. He got caught on the act of stealing from a merchant's house and was arrested normally, what manhunt could there have been? Also, you misunderstood my quote about widespread anecdotes, what I meant is that type-moon grabs even the most inconspicuous sources of drama and legend that pretty much no one knows about if they think it will be interesting: as a prime example we have lancelot, whose knight of owner came from almost a footnote in his story, a trivial account of him killing some dude with a branch after being disarmed, it was turned into an amazing noble phantasm used as his essence and identity when summoned as berserker. So if Japan in general actually believed okita souji and okada izo met, no matter how unlikely, type-moon would most likely have put it into their game, that's why I say that it serves as a hint. The investigation you mention in games and stories should be, as I said before, a popular fictional event to induce a meeting between the valorous hero and the dreadful villain. Sherlock Holmes was never real yet people eagerly reference and use him as a character in many books and games, he is that much of a phenomenon, but no matter how many people treat him as a real person and send letters to 221b Baker Street, he still has never existed and no amount of fictional works that depict him will prove otherwise.

 

[BloodySorcerer]

@DukeHermann that's not true, Type-Moon only picks what they found interesting, they don'y pick every single thing about the characters. One example is Gilgamesh, most stories have Gilgamesh lose or win only through the use of wits against Enkidu, because Enkidu is stronger than Gilgamesh, they are only equal when comparing all their traits with one another and not in the same points. Gilgamesh uses the version of the character that is simply superior all around to literally everyone. And that is one version of the hero, one among many different versions. And he was not as arrogant as he is in Fate, in all of his stories. in some he openly defies the gods, in others he is not really competing with gods because of how perfect he is, rather it's gods who are pissed at his lack of adherence to their faith and have a problem with him, and so on, so forth.
Same can be said of many other of their characters. They don't really use everything of a character they use only that which wil contribute to their stories. So no, the fact that they didn't use Okada's arrest does not constitute into the inexistence of the fact. It only means that this was what they believe would add more to their story.

 

[DukeHermann]

@BloodySorcerer And as I said, the fact that an interesting event like this manhunt was not used by type-moon was a hint that it was not perceived as true, not proof that it didn't happen, the proof lays on the historical facts where he was arrested on the act of stealing from a merchant's house, thus there being no manhunt. I only mentioned this hint because I hadn't looked at the Japanese wikipedia before typing that part out, otherwise I would have just told you outright that there was never a need for a city-wide investigation.

 

[izayamikaelis]

the comment section once again reminded me that you should not...think the event on Fate work as 100% accurate (can't find the right word for it...take it with a grain of salt?) like it does based on real people and legends and their backstory are close but...expect it to be embellished, exaggerated, and or modified (so basically based on something real but fiction...not sure what you call it)

 

[AngelHQ]

(so basically based on something real but fiction...not sure what you call it)

It's called literary license, in type moon is so widespread that it's part of the fun but it's a very common resource for writers in fiction.

 

[AngelHQ]

That last recount of the casualties was way too callous, saying there were no loses when so many people died.

 

[durende]

Holy hell, this is hype as fuck. Godlike art (the choreography on Okita turning the tables on the assasin servant, sheeeesh) and badass characters