Genkaigoe no Skill wa, Tenseisha ni Shika Atsukaenai - Over Limit Skill Holder - Vol. 4 Ch. 11 - The Secret Of The Holy Pale Blue (2)

[zorro00]

I've also read much further than the current arc in the WN & a lot of this is right but I feel like some of what was said here feels rather up to interpretation, & as such wasn't quite what I got from the subsequent events. It's also possible that the LN version is noticeably/significantly different & that's what your take here is based off of, but if you want my take here's a wall of text choc full of moderate-to-heavy spoilers:

Spoiler

For starters, I don't think the WN ever provides evidence that any... let's use the term "mortal" currently alive actually knows the full details of the compact (including the ruling class), and/or whether any of those mortals are actually aware of the alternate world prior to the events of the series. Dragons are a something of an exception, but they basically never interact w/ the normal mortal races. I also have a vague memory that the Rabbit priest in this arc MIGHT know more (& possibly everything?), but I don't think he ever really spells things out in detail; I think it comes up at some point that part of the compact is that he's not allowed to tell the whole story? This part's very hazy.

Anyway, this ruling family IS aware that they're supposed to give this specific orb to a specific descendent & that descendent will disappear forever if given the orb (thus the king obviously wants to give it away!) BUT, I don't recall ever reading that the king knows WHY the person giving this orb will disappear and/or where they disappear to (& I'm pretty sure it was quite the opposite, they know the result but have no idea WHY this happens every few generations, which is part of his angst on why he doesn't want to give the orb to his son.) In a more general sense, I never saw it spelled out that any of the mortals know what's going on, & bc of that I don't know that the ruling class is any more or less greedy/terrible than they are in any other of these isekai settings, & if they, are I don't think it's bc of this subject.

The second thing I'd bring up is that the other world is definitely a shithole, and yes it's filled w/ terrible monsters, but I don't think I'd say those monsters "want to invade the human world", bc said terrible monsters are generally of the "Hostile Magical Critter" variety, not the humanoid/sentient beings of that world. Humans, or at least an offshoot of them, are still alive in that dimension along w/ several other humanoid/mortal races (IIRC, some/all of the non-human races there don't exist or are very rare in the main world, but this is another subject that the memory's kinda hazy on.) The members & leaders of those races ALSO don't seem know the Good World exists (bc if they did, the leaders of those races would be trying to get their people out of the Dark World instead of being in a constant war w/ the environment for survival.) I have a vague memory that the leaders of the Alt-Humans may be the exception to this in that they know the other world exists & want to get there, but they don't seem to know HOW to get across, so their lives are just as shitty as everyone else's in that world.

This is another bit possibly open to interpretation, but I feel like the implication for WHY the Dark World is filled w/ terrible monsters is that the imbalance in orbs (or at least orb USERS, more on that in a bit) has left the sentient races off the Dark World too weak to properly fight back against the monsters there, leading to a spiral of more/stronger monsters attacking the Sentients> Sentients are forced to retreat due to insufficient combat power> the resulting abandoned land leaves room for more/even stronger monsters, rinse & repeat.

As I alluded to just a bit earlier, I think a large part of the imbalance isn't just that there's fewer/less powerful orbs in the Dark World, it's that there appears to be hardly any orb USERS. When the MC ends up in the alternate dimension, he discovers that the alternate world version of the shrine they're all currently at appears to be abandoned (or close to it, I think there was something resembling a shack or the like there) & it's absolutely OVERFLOWING with unused skill orbs (so much so that they burst out of said shack shortly after he arrives.) Good-world humanity is certainly contributing to the imbalance by hoarding orbs (mostly/especially the powerful ones), but for reasons that weren't fully explained last I read, the Dark-world seems to've largely lost/forgotten that orbs are even a thing & thus almost no one has or uses them.

I've probably droned on too long at this point, but the last little bit I'll bring up is that I think the WN sets up the the true culprit (IE the parties responsible both for the imbalance & that almost no one KNOWS about the imbalance) are actually some section of the individual(s?) involved in the original compact (who are all weird supernatural entities mind you, not the mortals having to deal w/ this ish) & are doing so bc they want out of and/or to destroy/rewrite the rules of said compact... but all of this was all in the realm of cryptic hints & foreshadowing last I read, so it's possible this line of thought was eventually revealed to be moot.

I should check up on the WN version & see how far it's gotten/if it's over. It was a really good read!

Spoiler

I believe it was a plot point that everyone who knew about the contract each only knew one rule of it, and they couldn't outright share the rules. As a result, the king only knew that the 8 Star skill orb had to go to a Holy Blue kid who never had a skill orb before, but he didn't know any other rules or context beyond that.

 

[MontDilanus1343]

I feel like some of what was said here feels rather up to interpretation, & as such wasn't quite what I got from the subsequent events

It's intentional (by me).

• The over-arching story and lore means most of the manga makes zero sense unless you have sone contextual hints.
  (the spoilers I tried to give).
• Whereas saying explicitly what will happen next in upcoming chapters just takes away the fun and surprise.
  (the spoilers I was vague about, omitted, or misdirected).

Hopefully other people who have read ahead can see what I was getting at. It's one thing to say "Star Wars is about the clash between an Evil Galactic Empire, and a band of Rogue Heroes -- and the three-act story of their underdog march to victory". But it's another entirely to just spout "Darth Vader is Luke's father".

Especially when chapters of this come out so slowly the plot makes no sense because we forget everything. A radio-broadcast weekly serialized sci-fi drama novella this 'ain't. Book format may suit it better -- although the art is nice.

On to the spoiler and counter-spoiler discussion:

Spoiler: Replies to your comments

I don't know that the ruling class is any more or less greedy/terrible than they are in any other of these isekai settings, & if they, are I don't think it's bc of this subject.

The absurd justification nobles/knights use to raid the mansion, used by author as literary mechanism to drive transition into the next arc, really ticked me off. Then exacerbated by ("the straw that broke the camel's back") how MC treated Eva.

Similarly to how incompetent mismanagement meant bodyguards were placed in the absolute dumbest position to do their jobs in this arc. It's as if they want to be incompetent and die and cause the most harm possible. Risk-perverse behvior.

Now spice on top of that the acts of the father, and the bumbling naive do-goody-MC. This interaction is what really triggered me about this arc, and spawned my distaste of this MC's personality. And was actually the reason I dropped the novel (hence my lack of spoiler knowledge past this arc).

(Speaking intentionally vaguely, substituting events to avoid upcoming spoilers: )
I always gauge things "What if X weren't to have happened by chance?" Such as when JP MCs "forgive" heinous criminals; an overused trope in JP fiction to (absurdly) demonstrate how MC has idealized JP character virtues of "humility" and "kindness".

• What would have happened to [the girl being attacked in an alley] if JP MC-kun didn't just-so-happen by at that exact moment in time and stopped [the thugs pinning her down]? Or didn't surprisingly have the magical-OP-power to be able to stop it?
• Would oh so humble and kind MC-kun similarly"forgive" the criminals if he happened by 30 minutes later, after the act was done? And/or couldn't/didn't stop it?
• Why does oh so humble and kind MC-kun -- who had nothing to do with the crime -- get to decide whether or not to "forgive" [the thugs], rather than [the girl herself], who was the actual victim?

MC here (and others) are engaged in such idiotic behaviors regularly. Which is why I bothered to type out that paragraph in the end. It's not just the nobles; it's MC himself I'm offended by too. And his interaction with the father.

I agree that this is written fiction -- so the end is pre-determined by the author. But if this were reality -- a single crossed wire would have spelled disastrous consequences. (Summarizing: I dislike lack of realistic hedging against risk, perhaps?)

I've probably droned on too long at this point

I appreciate the context and chat. Most of what you mentioned was news to me. Hopefully others enjoy the additional context and framing as well.

I enjoy knowing the structure of a story; then seeing how the author fills in those details. It helps avoid stories that careen into a ditch in the last arc. As long as the story framing is solid, it can still be enjoyable if the connecting events are rough. But even wonderful events (like Eva) can be ruined by being framed around an absurd story structure (MC's actions at arc end).

You'd think he'd (rather: author'd let him'd) have learned his lesson the first time around, in his departure from the Adventurer Party. I still want to slap MC.

 

[Seroster]

It's intentional (by me).

• The over-arching story and lore means most of the manga makes zero sense unless you have sone contextual hints.
  (the spoilers I tried to give).
• Whereas saying explicitly what will happen next in upcoming chapters just takes away the fun and surprise.
  (the spoilers I was vague about, omitted, or misdirected).

Hopefully other people who have read ahead can see what I was getting at. It's one thing to say "Star Wars is about the clash between an Evil Galactic Empire, and a band of Rogue Heroes -- and the three-act story of their underdog march to victory". But it's another entirely to just spout "Darth Vader is Luke's father".

Especially when chapters of this come out so slowly the plot makes no sense because we forget everything. A radio-broadcast weekly serialized sci-fi drama novella this 'ain't. Book format may suit it better -- although the art is nice.

On to the spoiler and counter-spoiler discussion:

Spoiler: Replies to your comments

The absurd justification nobles/knights use to raid the mansion, used by author as literary mechanism to drive transition into the next arc, really ticked me off. Then exacerbated by ("the straw that broke the camel's back") how MC treated Eva.

Similarly to how incompetent mismanagement meant bodyguards were placed in the absolute dumbest position to do their jobs in this arc. It's as if they want to be incompetent and die and cause the most harm possible. Risk-perverse behvior.

Now spice on top of that the acts of the father, and the bumbling naive do-goody-MC. This interaction is what really triggered me about this arc, and spawned my distaste of this MC's personality. And was actually the reason I dropped the novel (hence my lack of spoiler knowledge past this arc).

(Speaking intentionally vaguely, substituting events to avoid upcoming spoilers: )
I always gauge things "What if X weren't to have happened by chance?" Such as when JP MCs "forgive" heinous criminals; an overused trope in JP fiction to (absurdly) demonstrate how MC has idealized JP character virtues of "humility" and "kindness".

• What would have happened to [the girl being attacked in an alley] if JP MC-kun didn't just-so-happen by at that exact moment in time and stopped [the thugs pinning her down]? Or didn't surprisingly have the magical-OP-power to be able to stop it?
• Would oh so humble and kind MC-kun similarly"forgive" the criminals if he happened by 30 minutes later, after the act was done? And/or couldn't/didn't stop it?
• Why does oh so humble and kind MC-kun -- who had nothing to do with the crime -- get to decide whether or not to "forgive" [the thugs], rather than [the girl herself], who was the actual victim?

MC here (and others) are engaged in such idiotic behaviors regularly. Which is why I bothered to type out that paragraph in the end. It's not just the nobles; it's MC himself I'm offended by too. And his interaction with the father.

I agree that this is written fiction -- so the end is pre-determined by the author. But if this were reality -- a single crossed wire would have spelled disastrous consequences. (Summarizing: I dislike lack of realistic hedging against risk, perhaps?)


I appreciate the context and chat. Most of what you mentioned was news to me. Hopefully others enjoy the additional context and framing as well.

I enjoy knowing the structure of a story; then seeing how the author fills in those details. It helps avoid stories that careen into a ditch in the last arc. As long as the story framing is solid, it can still be enjoyable if the connecting events are rough. But even wonderful events (like Eva) can be ruined by being framed around an absurd story structure (MC's actions at arc end).

You'd think he'd (rather: author'd let him'd) have learned his lesson the first time around, in his departure from the Adventurer Party. I still want to slap MC.

I'm, uh, not terribly familiar w/ the ins & outs of how to make full use of the functions on this board, so I'll just dump my thoughts into another spoiler tag (though this probably isn't as spoilery as the other bits we've discussed):

Spoiler

Your bits about the nobles are accurate in many ways, but what I was really trying to get across was 2 things: 1.) The nobles/rulers ARE relatively shitty, but if you put every isekai in existence into a tumbler & pulled out one at random, you're just as likely to draw a set of nobles far scummier than the ones in this setting than you are to draw a set of nobles that are better. They're not GOOD, but Isekai nobles are pretty garbage in general, so that bar is LOW. 2.) More important to what I was really trying to discuss, the negatives of the ruling class here don't seem to be about things involving the orbs (as I mentioned, they seem almost completely ignorant of the larger context of skill orbs & the compact). Are they shitty? Yes. Are they shitty for intentionally ruining the balance of the world for self gain? I haven't seen much evidence of that.

All that being said, I can't really refute what you said about the end of this arc bc my memories of what happens after this are VERY hazy (for this arc specifically, I obviously couldn't write the earlier wall of text without remembering the larger plot going forward.) It's hard to describe w/o further spoiling, but a part of my brain is telling me things happen in a certain way (which I think is what you're describing, so they're probably right) & the other part of my brain has vague memories of a different sequence of events (some of which I referenced in the previous post & I KNOW eventually happen, but if it doesn't happen at the end of this arc I can't recall when/how it comes about.) I can't recall if a.) the 2 plotlines in my head are all mixed up just bc I read WAY too much isekai & I've mixed up the upcoming events with parts from a different story w/ a similar situation as what's about to occur b.) I have the events in my head significantly out of order in terms of plot occurrence, or c.) the chain of events that I'm recalling happen simultaneously & the timeline only doesn't work out in my head bc I've forgotten the things that link the two. If the first line of thought is the one that happened in this story, I can also recall feeling something along the lines of "WTH is this, author? Absolutely ridiculous! Are you trolling us? Did you rewrite how this was going to go bc of negative fan reaction? Absolutely Hot Garbage."

I'm a bit like you in that I enjoy knowing the outline of a story before I commit to investing a lot of time in said story, but I'd say I'm not terribly interested in the story mechanics so much as I just enjoy... IDK how to describe it, but "experiencing" the story(telling) as it happens. Essentially, I'll enjoy a story in just about any medium if it has some combination of being
a.) well written, by which I mean good descriptions, dialogue, and/or character interactions, not the actual events of the plot. A good example of this for me is the WN/LN Sevens; it doesn't seem to be terribly well known, but it's probably my favorite JP fantasy story (It's one of those that's not really an isekai, but is definitely isekai-adjacent) by a mile bc the character interactions are so entertaining; the primary driver for me here was the MC's interactions w/ his... family members we'll call them \to avoid spoilers, but also bc the MC ends up w/ one of the largest & probably most accurate true harems I've ever seen, they all get along to a point, but relatively early on the harem devolves into pretty realistic factional catfighting.
b.) Well-presented: most of this is the art in the anime/manga spheres, but also encompasses the cinematography/special effects in any of the visual mediums & gameplay in the gamer sphere. In a move that feels somewhat ironic, I'd actually place my primary sphere of plot interest into this section rather than the writing; show me the plot in an interesting manner, give me pieces & clues to try & piece together the core goings on of the plot! I want that far more than just knowing what happens. This one's real big for me in live action movie/TV shows specifically, bc I almost never partake of those mediums so the ones that do have to be pretty captivating. A good example for this one is HBO's Westworld; on top of gorgeous sets & the like, the show is full of symbolism that actually means something (usually) & both the plot & background of the setting are given only out in spoonfulls that felt very rewarding to piece together in advance (or in retrospect sometimes.)
c.) Well-scored: this one is particularly important to me! In the mediums that can make use of sound, having good/mood appropriate music set to the proper happenings on screen will give me something on the scale of euphoria. Examples for this one are easy; my 2 favorite anime are FLCL & Cowboy Bebop & it's 99% bc they synced the sound track SO WELL to the events that multiple scenes will reliably drive me to tears... well, at least Bebop does, FLCL's more of an emotional high (& bc of FLCL, the pillows have been among my favorite bands for multiple decades at this point even though I can't understand most of the lyrics.)

Probably way more than anyone here cared to learn about my tastes in media, but I'm not going to delete all that now that I typed it. Have a good one all.

 

[Seroster]

Spoiler

I believe it was a plot point that everyone who knew about the contract each only knew one rule of it, and they couldn't outright share the rules. As a result, the king only knew that the 8 Star skill orb had to go to a Holy Blue kid who never had a skill orb before, but he didn't know any other rules or context beyond that.

This sounds right.

Spoiler

As I mentioned, I was pretty sure that a large part of the king's angst was due to the fact that their family didn't know WHY they were forced to disappear one of their kids every few generations (for no discernable reason on their end), & I believe you're right as to why they didn't know the details. They know the compact exists & their role in it, but they don't know why it exists, the exact details of who's "eligible" to receive the orb (though I think this was largely wishful thinking on the king's part), and/or what the repercussions are for breaking the compact. A related topic is that I find interesting but doesn't feel terribly important to the greater Myth Arc is that, AFAIK, we're ALSO never really shown/told what happens to the kid given the orb, but this is another point that may have been revealed since the time period I was reading it.

Sometime (probably after I actually finish BG3) I'll try to catch up on the WN version, bc around the time I quit reading (due to lack of chapters) the story seemed to be approaching a run of Big Reveals (& possibly the climax.) My fear is that I THINK I saw something that implied the WN was... IDK exactly the right word, abandoned? By which I mean the web version wasn't getting any more updates but also wasn't really given an ending, which seems to happen a lot when WNs get chosen to be published as a proper LN (I assume bc there's a lot more $$ in the LN sphere & they don't want to lose potential readers from ppl being able to read the whole story via the WN.)

 

[MontDilanus1343]

A good example of this for me is the WN/LN Sevens

Poor Octo. Author did her dirty.

That story was one of the ones that "careened into a ditch" at the end -- if you read the epilogue. It was clear the author spiked the epilogue trying to set up the sequel novel (which I read briefly, but didn't find interesting enough to continue like Sevens).

That series sure had some kind of genre shifts...

I'd actually place my primary sphere of plot interest into this section rather than the writing; show me the plot in an interesting manner, give me pieces & clues to try & piece together the core goings on of the plot! I want that far more than just knowing what happens.

You'll really like anything written by JP author "Usbar". Basically all of his stuff are generally good, some are masterpieces. He is an expert at foreshadowing, worldbuilding (in game-world mechanic), and consistent character actions.

There's Checkov's Guns littered all over the place. And everything is (mostly) logically consistent/character consistent. Only big warning: he loves his April Fools joke chapters. Swear to god it's a landmine every year, he's a huge (friendly) troll.

These are mainly "hardcore-gamer gets isekaied, glitch-happy adventure" stories. With quite enjoyable characters, and humor. In order I'd recommend reading:

1. "Only I Know This World Is A Game"
   (Fully translated, 11/10. Author notes are hilarious in raws. Start here. This is an archetype of Usbar's writing.)
2. "I'm Not The Hero"
   (In progress. I wouldn't read in in parallel with his other works to avoid "mixing stories/plot-confusion" as you mentioned.)
3. "Millishira - I Reincarnated in a Game World I Don't Know Even One Millimeter"
   (In progress, another fun "gamer-centric" story.)

And in terms of "hardcore science-fiction/high-fantasy", without many of these dumb Isekai tropes we're complaining about:

4. "Ookami wa Nemuranai"​

(Fully translated 11/10. Written by same author as "Bard Loen". Extremely comprehensive worldbuilding.)​

(FAIR WARNING: Epilogue is mandatory read. Opposite of above, end ALMOST careens into a ditch, epilogue fixes it.)​

​

5. "Behind The Battle Of The Hero And the Demon King"​

(In progress. 9/10 WN, 10/10 Manga. Excellent coherent writing. Although has some "idiot ball" trope moments.)​

As for long, mindless posts on internet forums that nobody reads: "Nerd rage. NERD RAGE!"

 

[Seroster]

That story was one of the ones that "careened into a ditch" at the end -- if you read the epilogue. It was clear the author spiked the epilogue trying to set up the sequel novel (which I read briefly, but didn't find interesting enough to continue like Sevens).

This is probably bc I don't really hang out in places that don't discuss this type of stuff much (I spend most of my time in more gaming-centric circles), but you're the first person that I've directly interacted with other than myself who had even heard of Sevens. Some of it might be good TLing, but the English version on the net is just a damn good story & I wish it were more popular/well known. As to your comments:

I read the epilogue(s) (IIRC, there were several stories labeled epilogues that were set over a seemingly vast expanse of time) & I don't remember having a super strong impression of them... except for the one involving the primary robot maid absconding w/ an heir (which for some reason left a strong impression on me & made me want to read more of THAT story.) The FINAL epilogue I recall reading was basically "Sevens: High School Edition". Was that what they made the sequel novel about, or was it a branch off of one of the other epilogues?

This convo reminded me that it'd been several years since I saw an update for the LN version of Sevens, & according to Novelupdates, it's apparently been on hiatus since 2020. That's SUPER disappointing bc in addition to what I thought were some positive improvements in the story (added some new characters/events alongside a bit of rewriting of the existing ones, & I think maybe even subtracting/consolidating some of the characters that I'd forgotten were in the original until it was pointed out elsewhere), I'm pretty sure the author stated they were planning to branch the LN story around the time Octo showed up such that the MC actually takes Octo's plothook & we'd get to see all of that instead of what we got from the WN after that point in the story. I was REALLY looking forward to that, but I guess we may never see it. Sadface.

 

[MontDilanus1343]

Was that what they made the sequel novel about, or was it a branch off of one of the other epilogues?

This will be last response, as "Your princess manga is in another discussion thread". But since you said you rarely interact with others in this space...

(I'll blame COVID lockdowns, and lack of in-person socialization due to modern serfdom/wage-slave culture -- people USED to have local anime club(s).)

The branch of Sevens sequel was Maria (the maid robot) running off at the end with MC's last blood descendant. Then world turning to crap again in far flung future. I stopped reading it since it essentially "reset buttoned" any progress the Sevens MC made, and steamrolled over his own desires and journey to rectify (what he perceived) as broken.

Sequel essentially started as ("Oh, everything you read in Sevens? All of that struggle and woldbuilding? None of that matters anymore. Gone.") It's as if the legacy of his life had no meaning, for sake of plot convenience of author and their Sequel. And turned MC into a guest character in his own universe (or pendant). That sort of shift wasn't something I appreciated.

I'll log out here. But thankfully Mangadex forums allow interactions of this nature. Keep reading, keep meme-posting, you'll run into more folks. Internet frens!

This convo reminded me that it'd been several years since I saw an update for the LN version of Sevens,
& according to Novelupdates, it's apparently been on hiatus since 2020. That's SUPER disappointing

"Me, Her, and the Ballistic Weaponry [Antique]".

(Did I mention I like hard-science-fiction? And hard-high-fantasy? Sadge.)

 

[Seroster]

This will be last response, as "Your princess manga is in another discussion thread". But since you said you rarely interact with others in this space...

I'll also commit to this being the last bit, & I'll try to keep this brief (for me) (since as you mentioned we've completely derailed this discussion), but rather ironically the epilogue you discussed was exactly the one I wanted to read more about! So long as there's a sufficient amount of time between them (IE, not within the MC's lifetime, which would basically retcon the main story into a failure) I tend to actually ENJOY sequels like what you discussed, bc said stories feel realistic to me. It varies by subject & time period, but in cultural terms the phrase "time is a flat circle" is pretty accurate. No empire/kingdom/culture lasts forever & usually the downfall is due to some variety of moral, economical, and/or technological decay. As such, I tend to enjoy stories that show this has occurred in a fantasy setting & seeing the new protagonist(s) attempt to reverse the decay once again.

Definitely gonna have to scope this one out...

 

[cryum]

It does feel like nobody in this story grows a brain until the plot is 90% done.

Silver Balance is pretty much the only force doing the best they can with the resources and partial knowledge at their disposal. Everyone else is sandbagging as all hell.

 

[Mageos]

Thank you for the chapter

 

[Mystyc_Cheez]

kowai...