Goals of Forum and Comment Moderation on MD

[lly]

Damn, all that for one shitty post I made

So I did write a comment on a manga/manhua calling it "gay"

https://mangadex.org/thread/17101/1/#post_423705

gay

that post was seven month ago, so I'm not sure about the details

For context, the manhua is gay, there's no doubt about it. read the first page if you don't believe me.

I think I called it gay solely because the manhua is gay, and not in a derogatory manner. I have nothing against gay people except myself or gay relationships.

However, I do believe it could have been considered offensive/hate speech, and I consider it frankly a very low effort/meme comment/bad shitpost that doesn't add anything to the discussion, the kind of comment I would downvote on reddit.


I wasn't contacted by the moderation at all for these 7 months, and receive this message from Zephyrus

https://mangadex.org/thread/17101/1/#post_421764

@lly
Calling something "gay" is not acceptable on MD and is a violation of rule 5.1, Be Civil.

Please reacquaint yourself with our rules here: https://mangadex.org/rules and find more constructive ways to criticize releases.

Thanks,

Zeph

I wasn't banned for this post, neither received a formal warning in DMs, just this.

The only debatable part in the message is this "Calling something "gay" is not acceptable on MD and is a violation of rule 5.1, Be Civil". First, we I hope everybody agrees that "Calling something "gay" [in a derogatory manner] is not acceptable on MD and is a violation of rule 5.1, Be Civil".

Then, there is two questions that need to be answered.
[ul]Does my comment fall on the "Calling something "gay" [in a derogatory manner] is not acceptable on MD and is a violation of rule 5.1, Be Civil" guideline? eh, kind of. I'm okay if someone says it was derogatory, maybe I even wrote it with a bit of derogatory undertone.
[/ul]
[ul]Does Zeph really mean "Calling something "gay" is not acceptable on MD and is a violation of rule 5.1, Be Civil" ? If the derogatory part is implied, I agree with him, even if his warning was poorly written (but still better than mine). If he really means his comment. I don't agree, as just pointing something is gay (as in homosexual, without any derogatory undertones) would be forbidden.

Let's take the exemple of the manga "Blue Flag/ Ao no Flag". (very good, minor spoilers)

Spoiler

Can I call Touma gay, or say that there are some things he did that are really gay? etc.

[/ul]
PS: I could edit my comment to remove "gay", but I won't as it is linked here and Zeph answered it in the thread. I will gladly edit it however if Zephyrus asks me to.

 

[Nick86]

@Vesper - Is a onetime 5$, like a premium feature, the content of MD is still free for everyone, is just a form of moderation, an extra service, because be honest here, the forum and other communities are pretty than enought to share an opinion, if you want more services you can just pay a small and insignificant price just to be sure that you aren't a spammer, or a troll. Once you bought the premium service you identity is pratically in the hand of the admis with the credit card ID info, and when you get banned you get banned forever unless you use a different card (you can't have infinite cards).

@kenx - Well, when episode 14 of Franxx released some retards sent death threats to the producer and filled his twitter account with insults plus a lot of racist comments against Japan, this show how rotten and toxic the actual manga and anime community is when a story don't go how they want, is because i tend to avoid big communities, after a while even the moderators aren't able to act against so much bad apples.

Another clear example here on MD is the Gal-Cleaning manga page, just go there and read comments, you can identify already a good 35-40% porion of people that should be moderated and banned, not to mention the fact i reported vandalism to the manga description widget that fortunately get closed to editing after a while. And i can add more examples of manga pages closed from editing or moderated. no matter how you try, the mor freedom you allow the more people exploit it.

 

[Infinityc0r3]

@lly
seeing the post myself. what I can tell is that it could be taken either way. The fact that there is just the word "gay" there with no context makes it ambiguous and thus prone misinterpretation. in English you can in a sentence refer to the previous sentence if there is no extra context to that sentence. Thus one would be lead to believe that your post refereed to the previous post.

 

[kenx]

@Nick86

episode 14 of Franxx

Huh, wasn't aware of that one.

like a premium feature

Sorry to butt in on another conversation, but I'm reluctant to support anything premium. Look at the "highborne" italian language of old and the "vulgar" Toscan in which La divina comedia was written. Guess which was accepted by the masses?

 

[Nick86]

@kenx - Added another example happened here on MD above (just edited my previous comment). Gal cleaning, probably you miss it, the true degradation of a community concentrated in some small chapters (death threats, insults, racism toward a whole country and people), there is everything there. I think i read so low and raw comments only on Mal and in some videogames forum regarding the last censorship of J-rpg and otaku subculture. >_>

 

[firelight]

"The fact that the clarification post on the general conduct rules devolved into a 6 page argument almost instantly is pretty sad...
This is exactly why the mangadex community needs clear rules and good moderation."
Everything was fine until the mentally ill started posting.

Make MD pay-to-comment!
"Yikes."
"I wholeheartedly agree with "censorship,""

If they find a site with staff they can't control, they will literally lose their fucking minds like they're doing right now or like the OP in the post below.
https://mangadex.org/thread/46755/1

 

[sinisempi]

why don't mods ever try to enforce actual quality instead of settling for "this is good because they didn't call me a retard"

 

[Zephyrus]

@lly
I appreciate that you've stepped forward to explain the context of your post.

I will admit to making the mistake of not investigating the chapter/manhwa closely enough to get the context of the post, but in my defense, a one-word post seemed to point towards a more derogatory tone than a thoughtful or literal comment. :v

To be perfectly honest, I think that this whole thing has a silver lining: it's opened up a dialogue on how moderation should work with a community like MD. Do we need strictness? Do we need laxness? Do we even need those lines drawn at all?

It's even made me realize that, moving forward, I need to be more explicit in my warnings and moderator actions so that there is no room for misunderstandings.

To reiterate, I assumed that you were using the word "gay" in a derogatory fashion, which at the time, I interpreted to violate 5.1. The official staff ruling as a result of your comment is that calling something gay isn't necessarily derogatory, but calling someone gay (except, I suppose, if they're literally gay) in a derogatory fashion is a violation of 5.1. Personally, I don't agree with that. It doesn't sit right with me to use gay in a derogatory fashion in any situation, but everyone draws lines at acceptable behavior in different places and compromise is a hallmark of good teamwork.

On a side note, I will never edit a post unless it is to put spoilers in a spoiler tags or to remove a slur of some sort. I fully believe in letting people's mistakes stand for all to see.

On another side note, as I mentioned earlier, the community's response has caused me to realize that in order for trust to be fostered, there need to be clear guidelines for how moderators and future moderators work on MD. I will be working with fellow staff to create said guidelines until we have hammered out something that is fair and can be used to hold moderators to account if needed.

 

[Bainhardt]

@firelight Oh man, oops! You almost took my words out of context! The ones I specifically said to quote, directly! What a blunder that would have been. Allow me to append those again here for you. Wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong impression of me from anybody else's posts except my own.

I will do you the favor of admitting outright that yes, I wholeheartedly agree with "censorship," despite that you very probably misuse that word. I cannot tell, as you once again choose not to explain any of the things you come forward to say. But if your point is whether or not I accept MangaDex's authority to determine what is permissible on their website, I do. You may quote me on that.

Beyond that, I have no idea what to tell you! If you think a website implementing the most barebones of guidelines forbidding hate speech is a form of censorship, oh well! You probably do not have a good time on most websites, as indicated by the fact that I quite literally just pulled up Twitter as a random example and searched "hate" in their help section, finding this very familiar-sounding passage:

Spoiler

But hey, maybe you should take your argument elsewhere. How about you try exactly what happens in this Die Hard 3 clip below, and tell me whether or not the people who approach you care whether or not they're "censoring" you. I would be very interested to hear how it works out.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDnvXAkMnx8

...I swear, it's like some of you people never even seen Die Hard 3.

 

[bluxaroo]

Mods being anymore than faceless belovent overlords brings more drama than it's worth tbh. The best moderation I've seen has been sites where those in charge are hands off and have little public presence, but apply the rules fairly and consistently. Bringing controversy into public light and discussing it immediately involves people who don't have the full context and rarely resolves the issue at hand. Better suited to private message so all parties involved can resolve it unless it somehow affects all users.

 

[goronyanpai]

It's like giving limited space, but if you think about it, not at all. Not something to be debated.
A proper community must be formed.

This rule is a bit insinuating that I have argued with someone here. (If you read it).
No, I don't use harsh/cuss words. I just commented on the story as usual, for example: "I don't like this manga since the beginning, it's so repetitive. Etc etc" -- very normal
And someone hit me about what I say. That satire me a little. Because I don't get it what make her so mad.

I don't show any objections.

I agree with what dancingoncrocodiles said. Just use your common sense. You should be able to adjust.

 

[Varrel]

This is like every teenager who vows to not grow up like daddy Batoto and then proceeds to do exactly that.

Beyond that, I have no idea what to tell you! If you think a website implementing the most barebones of guidelines forbidding hate speech is a form of censorship, oh well! You probably do not have a good time on most websites, as indicated by the fact that I quite literally just pulled up Twitter as a random example and searched "hate" in their help section, finding this very familiar-sounding passage:

Guess how many people got banned for advocating for the murder of the Covington kids for a literal fake controversy.
Guess how many are trying to get "learn to code" branded as hate speech.
Hmm, it's almost like there's some sort of double standard...

Respectfully, I feel I should point out that that's not your decision to make. You don't get to tell the administrators how they MUST run their site. They have no obligation to follow, nor even to consider, any demands like "There must be tools!" Users can offer suggestions to the site's leaders, but users have no standing to make demands.

"Users shouldn't make demands on admins!"
"Groups are justified in enforcing delays and demanding having their scans removed!"
Sweating man two buttons.jpg

 

[Yautja]

Other than the identity politics bullshit which manages to always infect a conversation and make it about politics, I think this went pretty well, all things considered. I'm surprised at how many people actually give a shit about this.

 

[Bainhardt]

@ossein Oh, you're right about that. I made a pretty poor choice of example and forgot that Twitter has some ridiculous new scandal regarding their moderation every week. Sorry.

If that's the case however, how about anyone who wants to hate speech just goes and does it on Twitter, and keeps their comments here on MangaDex strictly about whatever manga has the best boobs or fight scenes in it or whatever. Still sounds like a fine deal to me!

 

[Jadian]

@Kierlak @Yautja

Respect your authority or else, eh Cartman? Questioning the actions of the moderators will not be tolerated, it's the gulag for you wrongthinkers!

I didn't see him break any rule except for the arbitrary "don't reply" you laid out for him. And before you go there, having a "don't argue with a moderator" rule is ridiculous.

Since I haven't seen anyone point you in this direction yet:

https://mangadex.org/rules
https://mangadex.org/thread/5068

5.3.1 Do not argue with a moderator about an action in a thread.

Note that rule only applies to arguing with the moderator where the action took place. When disagreeing with the mod's action against someone else, I would still expect they want you to lodge that complaint with the mod via PM, rather than derailing a thread into an argument with the mod. Worst case scenario, you could make the case with another member of the staff if you think the mod is in the wrong?

 

[Yautja]

@Jadian
You didn't read very well because I did address that rule exactly in what you quoted and thereafter.

 

[walesgrey]

@ninjadork
Personally? I would consider the shutoff point the moment something passes from "definetly joking" to "is not joking/isn't funny". Yes, evaluating context and judging the reception words will have is a challenging task, and if you mess up and walk a joke too far the the mods should have every right to gong you off the stage. That individual mods will have different tastes and find different things to be sufficiently offensive to be actionable is just part of the venue.

Moderation and interpretation of rules will inherently be arbitrary. Demanding exact rules for a posting code of conduct is not useful if the rules are there to build a community. If someone can't accept that some things may not be universally funny, innoffensive, or that their speech violates site rules, then they shouldn't be allowed to post. To maintain an open and free social group requires the group to protect itself from people who would abuse the freedoms of the group and other members of the group.

@ossein
You may be interested to know that the whole "learn to code" thing on twitter is actually yet another targeted harassment campaign. The phrase by itself is totally innocuous but when you have unrelated people flooding the mentions of a person who's lost their job with what is contextually "You're an idiot for choosing journalism as a career!", it shifts from pithy career development advice to deliberate harassment.

 

[FredFriendly]

@Zephyrus @Holo Thanks for implementing this function as well as this discussion.

I had a similar incident to @lly's situation that happened on another forum. This issue actually addresses a couple of concerns I've noticed in this thread: inconsistent moderation, possible high-handedness on the part of some moderators whose power has gone to their heads, and vagueness regarding how the rules could be interpreted which could end in being banned.

On another website, I made a forum post where I used the term "slut" to refer to a character in an anime (or was it a manga, I don't remember). One of the moderators issued a permanent infraction and removed my post with the reason (not stated anywhere in their policies):

Calling a character a "slut" is never acceptable, even if you don't respect a character. This is tasteless, offensive, and little more than a projection of your bias given that it's part of a regular pattern.

I did an immediate search of all the threads on the forum and discovered that there were many, many, many other posts where the term "slut" was used, not only toward fictional characters, but toward actual humans, as well (in fact, I just did another search, 3 years later, and the term "slut" is still rampant on that website). So why was I issued an infraction by that one moderator when that moderator, herself, had also read and posted on many of the other threads but had not removed the offending comments, as she had done mine? Was this inconsistent moderation, or simply a personal dislike for my posts in general as witnessed by the statement, "little more than a projection of your bias given that it's part of a regular pattern"? Questioning the decisions of moderators was, of course, forbidden, so I can only speculate as to the reason.

The term "slut" is not necessarily derogatory, and can be used as short-hand for, "she is someone who is sexually promiscuous," just as "man-whore" can be used for the male counterpart. But should calling a fictional character a slut, and particularly if that character is specifically being portrayed as such, be a bannable offense? Calling another member or other real humans a slut shouldn't be tolerated, in my opinion, but fictional characters' feelings are not gonna get hurt no matter what you call them.

These are all very fine lines that you mangadex folks have opened the floodgates to, and I don't envy the decisions you're going to have to make. Good luck!

 

[Holo]

If a character is being promiscuous, by all means call them a slut.

Obviously don't go around calling other users sluts!

 

[Kanami-chan]

shitting on pathetic beggar like kirei cake should be encouraged though