Handyman Saitou in Another World - Vol. 1 Ch. 20 - Merrymaking in the Dwarf's Workshop

[wortwortwort]

@kenkagejack lol I can totally see the manga making that joke

 

[IMACOP]

Don't see how MC thinks it's an issue. Introducing gun to the world? He want it as a back up weapon, and (maybe) only him know about gunpowder. It's not like he's going to wholesale it or scream every detail about it at every tavern, and he don't even party with a ton of other adventurers.

 

[jonsmth]

@jwanito

i think unless he invents a fucking cannon or a gatling gun, guns wouldnt have such an impact on this world, given that magic exists, except, of course, if they're mass produced

The first guns to change the battlefield weren't field artillery. It's not so much a problem of production or supply of weapons, but a matter of manpower. Historical campaigns never had enough men and would often hire professionals - mercenaries - to their reach their quotas. Imagine if instead you could just fill your bottom ranks with peasants, who each could be just about as effective as a knight or a mercenary for a fraction of the cost and you simply have much more of them. And this is because of the gun.

Lords will be buying up all the guns if not telling the smiths in their territories to make more of them.

There will be guns, and there is going to be a lot of them.

These guns aren't simply going to disappear in peace time too. One way or another, they will end up in the hands of common folk.

 

[kwendy]

It's not like guns reshaped the world overnight, guns are surprisingly old concept.
+
I probably shouldn't, but... @jonsmth

Imagine if instead you could just fill your bottom ranks with peasants, who each could be just about as effective as a knight or a mercenary for a fraction of the cost and you simply have much more of them.

Oh boy, half of them will kill themselves if you are lucky and the rest would be dispearced or slaughtered by fast assault leaving bunch of expensive trophies behind!
Honestly, a lot of arguments made are just the extremes.

 

[Anonyan]

@kwendy
What do you mean, extremes?
The whole thing about muskets being adopted for warfare was that it's way easier to put a bunch of untrained guys on a range with an instructor for a week and have a bunch of "soldiers" out of it than it is to train dudes to ride horses and hold spear formations and win sword fights and put on plate armor with assistance.
There's a lot of people in here going "fantasy guns good," "fantasy guns bad," "fantasy guns no difference because magic," but the least debatable thing anyone could possibly say is that training people to use guns would be cheaper and easier than training people to be fighters or mages. That's the whole thing about them, that's the reason evolution of weapons from 950 AD Chinese firework-on-a-stick "guns" to muskets was historically relevant at all.

 

[kwendy]

@Anonyan Extremes meaning "peasants (or women and children) can fight as good as trained soldier" or "swords and armor are too heavy for regular people use" or mere notion of muskets wich are pretty late technology as far as gunpowder weapons evolution goes (as you noticed). Or the note that guns automatically win the fights for you.
You can pick apart many long term arguments in similar fashion, like US eternal conflics for firearms laws where each side desperately fighting strawmen.

 

[Deathhappens]

@kwendy You can debate the actual vs imagined effectiveness of early prototype guns all you like, but their success is a matter of historical record. Simply put, as guns became better, swords and spears became extinct (as, slowly. did armor, because no amount of metal you could actually carry around and fight with could protect you from bullets). Guns requiring little to no training is one thing, but don't forget the next step in the evolutionary chain: Proper artillery and machine guns. It took half a millenium to go from the first arquebus (though note the design Saitou had in mind was significantly more advanced, an early 17th century flintlock) to the Maxim Machine Gun, but Saitou is right to be apprehensive about setting the first foundation to bringing that power to his new world.

 

[vodspod]

@Hell_Satan For Greek fire the only reason we do not have it currently is because we have not found a need for a material that has those specific attributes enough for someone to have put in the research to reproduce it, or that research has not been going long enough to finish.

There is also the problem that the Greek fire may have been exaggerated, or issues with the material were not documented in the stories. For instance we have history of machine guns shooting from the front of planes in WW2, but many people do not realize they had issues with tuning them so they would not shredding the propeller. It is not a very close analogy, but it should be at least an example of the side effects not being clearly understood when you hear about it, and in ancient Greece they did not have the skill at recording information as we do now.

 

[kenkagejack]

@Simshynaru I doubt a modern Japanese with their gun-restrictions is more familiar with a flintlock pistol than a sword. Even if it's not a katana.

"I am a hero." zombie manga makes it a point to explain a bit of the gun restrictions just for his target-shooting license.

Problems with a flintlock: There's the flash, the smoke, the sound, the VERY loud sound off the rock walls, the ringing in the ears, firing into melee, ricochet, repeated firing and maintenance, alerting distant enemies, and the reload time.

Give the man a short spear. More reach, safer to his allies

 

[kwendy]

@Deathhappens Two questions: 1) When were guns introduced 2) When were melee weapons went out of service.
Just because gunpowder was introduced does not mean that world changed on the next day.
Saito's worries are more of an idealistic rant rather then realistic concern.

 

[derkommissar]

If he's gonna be dungeoneering, a musket would be the worst weapon to use inside the cavern. You can't see the enemy from the smoke, the long range advantage would be nullified the moment you shot the thing, the sound would deafen you and your teammate and worst of all, you'll be useless if you can't reload fast enough.

On the other hand, for those inexperienced with fighting could use a spear or a quarterstaff. And if saitou felt it was too long, he can try to make an e-tool from a shovel.

 

[Docobonbon]

Once Saitou gets a gun, there is a gun in the world, its not going to dissappear when Saitou is not using it or when he dies.
If other people see it in action (inevitable if he plans to use it) then the knowledge will definitely spread that such a weapon exists.
The general populace getting access to guns makes Knights a bit obsolete due to lack of cost effectiveness and the fact that guns can and will be used in revolutions to great effect.
Introducing guns in the world, when looking back 500 years or so it might be viewed positively but in the short term it will create problems (and solve some).
I think it is reasonable for Saitou to not want to be responsible for the loads of bloodshed that might follow.
The argument that they will inevitably be introduced so he should do it now is flawed. If it is introduced without his influence then it is not his (perceived) responsibility, thus, he would not feel guilty (if he were alive).
This is all of course ignoring the fact that a gun is probably not the best thing for Saitou right now.

 

[WillTell]

I never understood these isekaid people and their reluctance on guns. It's just a weapon, a more sophisticated one, but so is a crossbow

 

[jonsmth]

@kwendy

Oh boy, half of them will kill themselves if you are lucky and the rest would be dispearced or slaughtered by fast assault leaving bunch of expensive trophies behind!
Honestly, a lot of arguments made are just the extremes.

16th century Japanese samurai equipped their conscripts, which were largely made up of (former) peasants, with arquebuses.
They are of course drilled and have some loyalty to their lords, so they aren't going get killed by themselves so quickly.
However, by the 16th century, the warlords of Japan were already employing ashigaru for centuries, so a good portion of these peasant armies are regulars and already battle-hardened.

I only used peasants as an example to emphasize how much guns can change things. Yeah, I used an extreme as an example.
But of course, realistically, you have to train and drill them like anyone else to keep them in formation and prevent them from routing.

Extremes meaning "peasants (or women and children) can fight as good as trained soldier" or "swords and armor are too heavy for regular people use"

Did anyone even mention anything about swords and armor are too heavy for regular people?

"Regular people" were also equipped with these exact same things (as far as munitions could supply), but the difference lies in their experience and training, which is what "regular people" lacked.

Just because gunpowder was introduced does not mean that world changed on the next day.
Saito's worries are more of an idealistic rant rather then realistic concern.

It's fine for him to think like that. He wouldn't want to feel responsible for a huge change in the world.

Also, it's not just any sort of gun - it has to be something that can be brought into the dungeons.
And with modern knowledge - even if vague and incomplete - he could probably introduce 18th-19th century gun technology (cartridges? bolt-actions? repeaters even?). Some matchlock from the 16th century would have been too slow and unwieldy and he'd be better off using a spear. These might not change the world the next day, but it could within Saito's lifetime if this technology gets out.

 

[Hell_Satan]

@vodspod why recreate greek fire in modern times we already have guns I'm reffering to the use in fantasy story or isekai story wouldn't it be cool to have damascus steal or greek fire in those stories

 

[Garnt69]

How about Grappling Hook? Adventurer always need grappling hook.

 

[kwendy]

@jonsmth

Did anyone even mention anything about swords and armor are too heavy for regular people?

Yes, couple of pages ago. Just a bit in a stack of misunderstanding of different warfare.
+
Everything you say is correct and not contradict my point. Ah, but I want to add, that despite magic and high proficiency of master craftsmen it's still early medieval or even late antique level of industry, meaning technologies are preserved within closed workshps and can be lost with the death of master. It would still funny (in a twisted ironic sense) if some dumbass isekaijin loose bunch of guns to goblins, providing later adventurers with surprise boomstick action.

 

[jonsmth]

@kwendy

Everything you say is correct and not contradict my point.

I see. I felt that my point was being misunderstood/misrepresented, so I was just trying to clear things up. I suppose that means you're also not contradicting what I said.

meaning technologies are preserved within closed workshps and can be lost with the death of master

I imagine that as long as the blacksmith has successors in the future (in case he does make the gun) or Saito doesn't destroy his gun before he loses it or before he dies, I would think that the tech will proliferate anyhow. In the case of the knowledge lost but the gun remaining, it would only be a matter of time for someone to reproduce it.

It would still funny (in a twisted ironic sense) if some dumbass isekaijin loose bunch of guns to goblins, providing later adventurers with surprise boomstick action.

This would be also one way to speed up the gun revolution too since those guns will eventually end up in some adventurer's hands or even knights from a subjugation force or whoever defeated those boomstick-wielding goblins.

 

[norctune]

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

 

[Clockwork]

In my view the main issue is that the introduction of gunpowder to this world would likely fuck with the balance of power. The first faction to get their hands on firearms would certainly use that edge and declare war on everyone around them. And war bad.