Hazure Waku no [Joutai Ijou Skill] de Saikyou ni Natta Ore ga Subete o Juurin Suru made - Vol. 15 Ch. 72 - Negotiations Begin

[headphoneuser]

I know she is naive and stupid but human greeds has no limits....i know she need a lessons but this is feels too extreme and hard to watch

 

[f5kt]

 

[Salfaro]

The only upside here is that the rapist took the key, which is an important enough item that there's a high likelihood he gets immediately murdered, because letting the bad guys keep something like that isn't a good idea. Only question is if he gets murdered before or after the rape.

Whichever way it is, I kinda assume the leopard people are gonna show up as backup, and the one leopard guy is gonna die, since the author gave us the death flag of his wife being pregnant here.

 

[scoutjoe]

That's the downside of being too naive and peace loving specially if you live in the end of the world and you have no idea how the other race outside your paradise treats your kind you will find it out the hard way

 

[Knighto]

"I won't let anyone die" Famous last words.
Deserved fate to the dumb spider girl, MC almost convinced them to prepare for war until she butted in.

you know if she gets killed, it could be a nice touch, to have her spider legs the same as actual spiders, like when they go to the center and frozen ... like someone wants to check if she's okay, but the legs tells you she ded

 

[Knighto]

Not all warnings can be trusted, especially when someone is trying to drag you in a war that they want to find. She had a legitimate concern.

The real problem here is that she acted on blind faith; you can't negotiate with someone you don't understand. I mean, her whole plan was: we tell them that we don't want to fight and they'll agree not to attack.

Honestly, I think she's too young, and the society she lives in - closed off, with diverse people living in peace for so long - has given her zero chance to understand what the humans could possibly want. She has no idea why wars happen and she can't even understand the concept of ethnic cleansing. Being ignorant is not a sin, but not when you don't recognise your own ignorance.

Consider also, that she may be the figurehead of this foolish peace plan but the majority of votes went her way, so she wasn't alone in her way of thinking. So yeah, I do think they're all very stupid for this.

So personally, I do have sympathy. I really don't think that was is happening to her should ever happen to anyone. I would also always be careful about blaming the victim.

Also, maybe we weren't shown how the MC argued his case, but what we saw from him was not convincing at all. I am not surprised at all that his warning fell on death ears. Of course, it's not like I expect him to be a skilled orator and debater, but personally I feel like he dropped the ball really hard here. It really isn't that hard to give examples of human wicked acts and to ask: how do you negotiate with people who just want to kill you?

the problem there is that there's 3 points that made his points really valid:
1. and this is the most important of the 3, the cat lady that was rescued because she was the only one that could enter the place, she was treated as a slave and hurt by one of the human forces that is going there.
2. His vice commander, she lost her kingdom and saw how awful humanity or pretty much the forces invading can be.
3. the MC there got by recommendation of not any person, but the witch is of high standard for them, she wouldn't sent someone with the intention to throw them into war, and well she was guarding Eve Speed and got another story of humanity or pretty much the goddess kingdom being just awful people.

spooder girl was blinded by her idealism, you can doubt some of this points, but not the 3 and at that moment she was just arrogant, which makes the hits from reality to not make you feel that bad for her, specially since the soldiers there don't have weapons to defend.

 

[Knighto]

You are certainly not wrong, that's a good point. But man, I'm just a bit sad because this makes them fairly one-dimensional to me. Not that this story needs a high level of intricacy, but it kinda makes it a bit boring when you know what to expect.

I mean we have seen different types of people of soldiers there, like the dragon knights just being battle freaks, or the hero gang from last time, we have the 6th army that are tricksters, or the soldiers/mercenaries that fought next to Sougou and helped her classmates. I mean with that is in essence they follow the goddess teaching on human or their country supremacy, so the main outcome is clear specially since we already knew her orders, the question is how will it happen.
As another commented, we could have expected the soldiers to make swiss cheese of the lamias, them going spiderussy was unexpected, but it is another way to show how horrible the goddess kingdom is and prolly to carve on the spider lady the price of her arrogance.

 

[MadScientist666]

Who would have known what would happen, right? /s

It's not like the guy you dismissed as some kind of belligerent, cunning fool could have told you what horrible people these "Goddess" fanatics are.

As I said in a comment on an earlier chapter: Negotiations and peaceful resolution of conflicts is important, but there are some people you just can't negotiate with apart from beating the shit out of them and these bastards belong to this group.

 

[dkuro]

She is not totally naive since she was wary of MC and gave and valid arguments of doing so.

Which then begs the question :
why being wary of a group 2-3 people but being full trusty of a whole army coming at your door from a kingdom with an history of percecuting her kind ?

The only answer that made sense : because she is fully absorbed in her diplomat character.
So unconsciously or not, she reject MC because him being right push further away a situation when she can be the diplomat she dream to be.
And for the same reason she is fully welcoming at the dangerous army she never seen with her own eyes coming to her home, in which most of the inhabitants are frefugees that came to run away from kingdoms that very army came from.

And now is the time of the painful wake up from the dream she deluded herself to think that was reality.

 

[frubam]

How young is she, to be a chancellor?? Like the whole reason y'all made your own country at the end of the world was to avoid being preyed upon. Like you'd have to be delusional or young and not know any better to think it's possible to negotiate with ppl who are marching to kill you.

Not looking for a rape scene but unless the fly king squadron is lurking around this is going to be a slaughter

Thanks for the tl

Another thing is that it seems like King Zect has been around as long as the goddess; how is it that he doesn't know her(Vysis) nature? He remained neutral, but seeing how humans where the ones who drove them out to the edges of the continent in the first place, he should at least have a slight distrust or bias toward not negotiating with them.

 

[HickaruIchijyo]

Ah, the West be like:

 

[manggek8]

I knew it this would happen.

 

[Hauberk1800]

Another thing is that it seems like King Zect has been around as long as the goddess; how is it that he doesn't know her(Vysis) nature? He remained neutral, but seeing how humans where the ones who drove them out to the edges of the continent in the first place, he should at least have a slight distrust or bias toward not negotiating with them.

he did seem to be biased against mc until he showed proof from his old friend who helped him set up his whole country the witch whose name I forget. Then that just went right out of the window in favor of democracy

 

[ngekngok]

being xenophobic is wrong, but naive pacifism won't save you either.

 

[Giga]

also the amount of misogyny on display in this particular thread is disturbing.

Some of the posts are definitely pretty openly misogynistic, unsurprising some idiots are always on the lookout for any opportunity to openly attack women without consequences even when the character gender is utterly irrelevant for what is happening

I'm a man and I honestly can't understand being this pathetic and emotionally stunted

Spoiler: For length

You two--and the others who share your perspective--only level such accusations against the people in this thread because you've put women on a pedestal. Surely you've noticed--there were many women introduced after Touka reached Zect's land: plenty of opportunities for the alleged "misogyny" to manifest, yet the only time anyone has waxed notably hostile toward any female aside from Vysis is in this particular spider girl's case, after the bind she threw herself into with outstanding arrogance and superciliousness starting with her treatment of a man with a national VIP's backing.

Of course, once that "most evil" of wrongdoings enters the picture, you get really agitated--as one can see here.

This touches a nerve for you because you feel no one can justly speak ill of a woman, which includes merely finding fault with whatever absurdity leaves a given woman's tongue. The "most evil" wrongdoing the spider girl is in danger of having visited upon her just amplifies the violation of the standards you've been hoping to shame people back into.

inb4 you don't actually care so much, et cetera

That spider girl is very likely going to be saved--based on how she looks and acts, I'd bank on it--but that doesn't change the glaring fact that she begged for everything that has happened to her so far, and she's particularly reprehensible for not only dragging scores of people into her jam, but also endangering the city she's supposed to serve and protect.

---

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

You said it before I could. lol That one adage negated all of her naïve talk: no matter what, there will ALWAYS be someone out there you cannot reason with; people with whom words will not even have a chance to fail, for they wouldn't be accepted to begin with--if they even had a chance to be said, before that.

 

[wilddeath]

Spoiler: For length

You two--and the others who share your perspective--only level such accusations against the people in this thread because you've put women on a pedestal. Surely you've noticed--there were many women introduced after Touka reached Zect's land: plenty of opportunities for the alleged "misogyny" to manifest, yet the only time anyone has waxed notably hostile toward any female aside from Vysis is in this particular spider girl's case, after the bind she threw herself into with outstanding arrogance and superciliousness starting with her treatment of a man with a national VIP's backing.

Of course, once that "most evil" of wrongdoings enters the picture, you get really agitated--as one can see here.

This touches a nerve for you because you feel no one can justly speak ill of a woman, which includes merely finding fault with whatever absurdity leaves a given woman's tongue. The "most evil" wrongdoing the spider girl is in danger of having visited upon her just amplifies the violation of the standards you've been hoping to shame people back into.

inb4 you don't actually care so much, et cetera

That spider girl is very likely going to be saved--based on how she looks and acts, I'd bank on it--but that doesn't change the glaring fact that she begged for everything that has happened to her so far, and she's particularly reprehensible for not only dragging scores of people into her jam, but also endangering the city she's supposed to serve and protect.

---

You said it before I could. lol That one adage negated all of her naïve talk: no matter what, there will ALWAYS be someone out there you cannot reason with; people with whom words will not even have a chance to fail, for they wouldn't be accepted to begin with--if they even had a chance to be said, before that.

hoo boy.... ok where to start with this... entire piece.

This has absolutely nothing to do with putting women on a pedestal or believing women can’t be criticized. I have criticized her myself. She absolutely walked into this situation through her own naivety and foolishness. She basically walked into an army of racist, murderous psychopaths with no empathy and thought she could talk them down. That was incredibly stupid.

But there is a massive difference between saying, “She was naive, reckless, and brought this situation on herself,” and people actively wishing death, suffering, or violence on her because she is a woman. The latter is what I’m calling misogynistic.

Criticizing a female character is not misogyny. Criticizing her bad decisions is not misogyny. Saying she endangered other people is not misogyny. But when the hostility becomes explicitly gendered and people are cheering for harm to come to her specifically because she is a woman, then yes, that is misogyny.

Pointing to other female characters people haven’t attacked doesn’t disprove that any more than saying “I’m nice to some women” would prove someone incapable of saying something misogynistic about another one.

 

[Giga]

hoo boy.... ok where to start with this... entire piece.

The beginning--where you started successfully. Wasn't so hard, was it?

And it surely wasn't--but like your average ideologue of that stripe, you first tried to discredit my criticism with a snide implication of inanity anyway.

Spoiler: For length

This has absolutely nothing to do with putting women on a pedestal or believing women can’t be criticized. I have criticized her myself. She absolutely walked into this situation through her own naivety and foolishness. She basically walked into an army of racist, murderous psychopaths with no empathy and thought she could talk them down. That was incredibly stupid.

But there is a massive difference between saying, “She was naive, reckless, and brought this situation on herself,” and people actively wishing death, suffering, or violence on her because she is a woman. The latter is what I’m calling misogynistic.

Criticizing a female character is not misogyny. Criticizing her bad decisions is not misogyny. Saying she endangered other people is not misogyny. But when the hostility becomes explicitly gendered and people are cheering for harm to come to her specifically because she is a woman, then yes, that is misogyny.

Pointing to other female characters people haven’t attacked doesn’t disprove that any more than saying “I’m nice to some women” would prove someone incapable of saying something misogynistic about another one.

And now, it's off to the motte with you, huh? What I quoted of you was taken from page 3 of this thread, with the other very shortly after on the same: up until then, the vast majority of people commenting were effectively placing the capstone on what they'd been saying since she'd come into the picture as she did. Those people were saying that what happened was the logical result of her actions and she, in her evil, got what she deserved--which she did. In case it needs to be said, no--evil isn't always as overt and conspicuous as that of Vysis and her lackeys: "I didn't know" doesn't work in spider girl's position (it's her job to "know"), and that's what people were saying before you and your peer alleged the commenters before you had soggy knees.

Funny thing is that on that page alone, you had three people either expressing at least some kind of pity or hope for the spider girl to be saved before her fast-advancing folly meets with her. Other than that, you had what I said before, people continuing to dissect her actions up until this point, or people waxing libidinous (probably "lolicons"); that last group was in the minority before and after what you said.

"Because she is a woman", you allege. lol Except that wasn't the case: the closest to it was the fact that someone was said to be on the cusp of receiving just deserts, and that someone happens to be female. Virtually no one cared about that specifically but you and your peer--and, of course, the prurient. (Though I suspect that changed when you said what you did. lol)

And if you'll speak of the comparisons with the real world that came after your accusations, describing reality isn't calumny.

 

[wilddeath]

Spoiler: spoiler for space

The beginning--where you started successfully. Wasn't so hard, was it?

And it surely wasn't--but like your average ideologue of that stripe, you first tried to discredit my criticism with a snide implication of inanity anyway.



And now, it's off to the motte with you, huh? What I quoted of you was taken from page 3 of this thread, with the other very shortly after on the same: up until then, the vast majority of people commenting were effectively placing the capstone on what they'd been saying since she'd come into the picture as she did. Those people were saying that what happened was the logical result of her actions and she, in her evil, got what she deserved--which she did. In case it needs to be said, no--evil isn't always as overt and conspicuous as that of Vysis and her lackeys: "I didn't know" doesn't work in spider girl's position (it's her job to "know"), and that's what people were saying before you and your peer alleged the commenters before you had soggy knees.

Funny thing is that on that page alone, you had three people either expressing at least some kind of pity or hope for the spider girl to be saved before her fast-advancing folly meets with her. Other than that, you had what I said before, people continuing to dissect her actions up until this point, or people waxing libidinous (probably "lolicons"); that last group was in the minority before and after what you said.

"Because she is a woman", you allege. lol Except that wasn't the case: the closest to it was the fact that someone was said to be on the cusp of receiving just deserts, and that someone happens to be female. Virtually no one cared about that specifically but you and your peer--and, of course, the prurient. (Though I suspect that changed when you said what you did. lol)

And if you'll speak of the comparisons with the real world that came after your accusations, describing reality isn't calumny.

There’s no “motte” here because I never made the broader claim you’re accusing me of retreating from. My original comment was literally: “the amount of misogyny on display in this particular thread is disturbing.” I did not say everyone criticizing her was misogynistic, I did not say criticism of her decisions was misogynistic, and I did not say every person wishing harm on her was doing so solely because she was a woman. You added those claims yourself and then argued against them.


I was talking about the thread as a whole, not just the handful of comments immediately surrounding my post on page 3. And the gendered comments were already there before I said anything. My comment was #52. Before that we already had “Certified woman moment” at #3 and “dumb bitch juice” at #43. “Certified woman moment” quite literally makes her being a woman the punchline for her stupidity, and “bitch” is a gendered slur. So your claim that the gendered element “wasn’t the case” is simply false.


I’m also perfectly capable of distinguishing misogyny from ordinary criticism or even comments that are just plain vicious. “Dumbass gets what she deserves” is not inherently misogynistic. “I hope she suffers more” is nasty, but that sentence by itself is not inherently misogynistic either. Saying she was naive, reckless, foolish, or that she walked herself directly into this situation is also not misogyny. Frankly, she was absurdly naive.


What I was objecting to was the explicitly gendered shit layered on top of that. There is a difference between “this character made a catastrophically stupid decision” and “certified woman moment.” Pointing out that difference is not “putting women on a pedestal.” It is recognizing that criticism of a woman and misogynistic criticism of a woman are not the same thing.


Also, these are only examples from the comments that existed before I made my original comment. Roughly five more pages have been added since then. I haven’t gone through those looking for additional examples because I don’t need to. The examples that prompted my comment were already sitting there when I made it.


And as for your suggestion that my comment may have encouraged people to make more misogynistic posts afterward: sure, it’s the internet. I can absolutely believe some people would see someone objecting to misogyny and deliberately respond with more of it just to troll them. But that would only mean they chose to respond to criticism of misogyny by making misogynistic comments. It doesn’t somehow make those comments cease to be misogynistic, and it certainly doesn’t explain away the ones that were already posted before mine.


Whether most people in the thread were criticizing her normally, whether some people expressed sympathy for her, or whether the misogynistic comments were a minority also doesn’t refute what I said. I never claimed the entire thread was misogynistic. I said the amount of misogyny on display in it was disturbing. Those are very different statements.

 

[omega9028]

 

[AlvoradaGD]

Well, that was just plain stupidity right there. It's perfect fine to be stupid on your own, but it's beyond unacceptable when each choice you make affect countless lives on your hands. She could have just sent an envoy, she could have prepared the army and tried negotiating just for peace of mind on the off chance it worked (even though she was warned it wouldn't).