High influxes of H Dj and manga, are they migrating?
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Oh so that's what's going on
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Kaarme: "However, your original statement means that a person who dreams of children sexually but never in their life even approaches a child or downloads any criminal materials from the net would nonetheless be a criminal."
No it does not. In extremis, it would mean only those who shared these thoughts with other people would be criminalised. But to be clear that is not the level of censorship anyone sensible is advocating.
What I am saying however is that another biological reality inherent in our species through evolution (and arguably the source of our dominance) is that ideas are contagious, even the really bad ones.
Perhaps we can agree that anyone distributing pamphlets entitled 'How to be a paedophile and get away with it' should be censored? If so then the discussion can move to whether or not virtual child pornography contributes towards child abuse by increasing ideation, 'teaching' grooming, normalising sexualised children and/or through some other means.
For the record I believe anyone with paedophilic ideation should be given access to specialised and confidential therapy in a medical setting without stigma.
Perhaps our definitions of politics differ. To me any acts of negotiation that lead to an agreement of norms or laws (written or otherwise) that govern collective human behaviour, whether it is a discussion about the policy of a niche fiction website or shady backroom deals at byzantine international organisations, is politics.
Offtopic:
@Kaarme @EOTFOFYL @LowSanity
No it does not. In extremis, it would mean only those who shared these thoughts with other people would be criminalised. But to be clear that is not the level of censorship anyone sensible is advocating.
What I am saying however is that another biological reality inherent in our species through evolution (and arguably the source of our dominance) is that ideas are contagious, even the really bad ones.
Perhaps we can agree that anyone distributing pamphlets entitled 'How to be a paedophile and get away with it' should be censored? If so then the discussion can move to whether or not virtual child pornography contributes towards child abuse by increasing ideation, 'teaching' grooming, normalising sexualised children and/or through some other means.
For the record I believe anyone with paedophilic ideation should be given access to specialised and confidential therapy in a medical setting without stigma.
Perhaps our definitions of politics differ. To me any acts of negotiation that lead to an agreement of norms or laws (written or otherwise) that govern collective human behaviour, whether it is a discussion about the policy of a niche fiction website or shady backroom deals at byzantine international organisations, is politics.
Offtopic:
Criminalising or policing thought has hitherto been technically impossible but we are at the brink of breaking that technological barrier. Dystopian visions of the future can be glimpsed in China's total surveillance regime + 're-education camps' in Xinjiang or its Social Credit System
@Kaarme @EOTFOFYL @LowSanity
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@o8o
Encouraging/assisting a crime and planning certain crimes are already criminal acts in many countries. In light of the child raping circles surfacing in Europe, I'd have nothing against even making blatant instructions on how to commit such crimes directly criminal, as long as the law is worded explicitly enough.
That will never move anywhere. It's 100% the same thing as some people claiming fighting games make the youth violent and prone to crimes. I've never seen a single piece of convincing proof of that. Nor will I see about 2D art turning people into criminal paedophiles suddenly. The usual "proof" here are the statements given by individual arrested people who claimed they moved from art to real people. Otherwise it's all up to some "experts" analysing the situation purely theoretically, based on nothing but their own opinions, however educated those opinions could ever be since we aren't talking about natural sciences here.
That would be great, but who's gonna pay for it? I don't know if paedophiles can be "cured", but if some therapy could increase the odds they will never do anything criminal, it would be great. In the end 99% of paedophiles never do anything sexually criminal (and nobody knows they are paedophiles in the first place). Although that might naturally change if pure fiction is criminalised as well. If they are made criminals just due to their nature, maybe they will think: "what the hell" and do the worst things since they know they are doomed anyway.
The line about politics was a joke. However, in my home country "politician" is one of the least respected jobs in opinion polls, as opposed to the likes of firemen who are naturally at the top.
Encouraging/assisting a crime and planning certain crimes are already criminal acts in many countries. In light of the child raping circles surfacing in Europe, I'd have nothing against even making blatant instructions on how to commit such crimes directly criminal, as long as the law is worded explicitly enough.
That will never move anywhere. It's 100% the same thing as some people claiming fighting games make the youth violent and prone to crimes. I've never seen a single piece of convincing proof of that. Nor will I see about 2D art turning people into criminal paedophiles suddenly. The usual "proof" here are the statements given by individual arrested people who claimed they moved from art to real people. Otherwise it's all up to some "experts" analysing the situation purely theoretically, based on nothing but their own opinions, however educated those opinions could ever be since we aren't talking about natural sciences here.
That would be great, but who's gonna pay for it? I don't know if paedophiles can be "cured", but if some therapy could increase the odds they will never do anything criminal, it would be great. In the end 99% of paedophiles never do anything sexually criminal (and nobody knows they are paedophiles in the first place). Although that might naturally change if pure fiction is criminalised as well. If they are made criminals just due to their nature, maybe they will think: "what the hell" and do the worst things since they know they are doomed anyway.
The line about politics was a joke. However, in my home country "politician" is one of the least respected jobs in opinion polls, as opposed to the likes of firemen who are naturally at the top.
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Kaarme: "In the end 99% of paedophiles never...", "It's 100% the same thing as..."
I'm guessing this is your opinion and these figures aren't based on any empirical research or the opinion of an 'expert'.
Kaarme: "Nor will I see [any evidence] about 2D art turning people into criminal paedophiles suddenly."
Indeed you won't and I never claimed otherwise. But there is mixed emipirical evidence with regard to Virtual Child Pornography being a contributory factor. ( https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/nyuls31&div=41 )
Kaarme: "The usual "proof" here are the statements given by individual arrested people who claimed they moved from art to real people. Otherwise it's all up to some "experts" analysing the situation purely theoretically, based on nothing but their own opinions, however educated those opinions could ever be since we aren't talking about natural sciences here."
It is true that the way the law evolved in the US (and probably other countries) was based on the moral convictions of elected politicians ( https://repository.uchastings.edu/hastings_law_journal/vol61/iss5/4 ); but to claim that there is no empirical evidence and no means of obtaining any as this is beyond the purview of natural science is incorrect, bordering on disingenuous, as a simple search on Libgen or Google Scholar can reveal.
Kaarme: "... but who's gonna pay for it?"
The same people who pay for firemen. In most countries public services are funded through taxes, in some through a form of national insurance, in others through charitable donations & NGO's; or some mix of these. Offtopic:
@Kaarme
EDIT: Fixed incorrect link
I'm guessing this is your opinion and these figures aren't based on any empirical research or the opinion of an 'expert'.
Kaarme: "Nor will I see [any evidence] about 2D art turning people into criminal paedophiles suddenly."
Indeed you won't and I never claimed otherwise. But there is mixed emipirical evidence with regard to Virtual Child Pornography being a contributory factor. ( https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/nyuls31&div=41 )
Kaarme: "The usual "proof" here are the statements given by individual arrested people who claimed they moved from art to real people. Otherwise it's all up to some "experts" analysing the situation purely theoretically, based on nothing but their own opinions, however educated those opinions could ever be since we aren't talking about natural sciences here."
It is true that the way the law evolved in the US (and probably other countries) was based on the moral convictions of elected politicians ( https://repository.uchastings.edu/hastings_law_journal/vol61/iss5/4 ); but to claim that there is no empirical evidence and no means of obtaining any as this is beyond the purview of natural science is incorrect, bordering on disingenuous, as a simple search on Libgen or Google Scholar can reveal.
Kaarme: "... but who's gonna pay for it?"
The same people who pay for firemen. In most countries public services are funded through taxes, in some through a form of national insurance, in others through charitable donations & NGO's; or some mix of these. Offtopic:
In a few corners of the world these institutions fail or are inequitable or corrupt... and then you get mass migration or refugees.
@Kaarme
EDIT: Fixed incorrect link
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@o8o
There are nothing but opinions on such things. 100+ years ago in the West homosexuals were seemingly exceedingly scarce, but then mysteriously when it wasn't anymore a crime/cause for instant social death, more than 5% of people suddenly turned out to be interested in the same sex. Why would it be significantly different for paedophiles? (I'm obviously not groupping these two together in any sense since homosexuals aren't harmful to anyone, unless they just happen to be criminals otherwise, and I'm sure there are also paedophilic homosexuals). Regardless, there are vastly less paedophilic crimes than there ought to be paedophiles not doing crimines. After all, most people in civilised countries aren't habitually performing crimes (especially if you don't count consuming manga/anime illegally). Thus the vast majority of paedophiles aren't going to act like criminals, by very simply logic.
Sure, I admit there must be some evidence, probably even some I'd grundgingly accept. After all, we are talking about individual people here. Chances are there are borderline paedophiles who never realised what they are until they happened upon 2D loli art. You might be able to say that awakened them. However, most of them would still not assault living children because most people in decent countries don't perform serious crimes (otherwise we would have no civilization). Still, a few of them would proceed to hurt people. However, who can say what was the key and if the key was crucial? It's no different from trying to guess why adults are raped.
In any case, the vast majority of people looking at loli art aren't going to assault anyone. No child in Japan would be safe if they did. That alone is evidence enough. Banning the art is just another "the minority ruins things for the majority" thing.
Anyway, I don't think I'm able to say anything more here. I'm already repeating myself as it is, and I'm not inclined to read articles on the subject, like you are doing. I've enough scientific background to recognise it would seem like I'm looking down on you if I only place opinions against your articles.
There are nothing but opinions on such things. 100+ years ago in the West homosexuals were seemingly exceedingly scarce, but then mysteriously when it wasn't anymore a crime/cause for instant social death, more than 5% of people suddenly turned out to be interested in the same sex. Why would it be significantly different for paedophiles? (I'm obviously not groupping these two together in any sense since homosexuals aren't harmful to anyone, unless they just happen to be criminals otherwise, and I'm sure there are also paedophilic homosexuals). Regardless, there are vastly less paedophilic crimes than there ought to be paedophiles not doing crimines. After all, most people in civilised countries aren't habitually performing crimes (especially if you don't count consuming manga/anime illegally). Thus the vast majority of paedophiles aren't going to act like criminals, by very simply logic.
Sure, I admit there must be some evidence, probably even some I'd grundgingly accept. After all, we are talking about individual people here. Chances are there are borderline paedophiles who never realised what they are until they happened upon 2D loli art. You might be able to say that awakened them. However, most of them would still not assault living children because most people in decent countries don't perform serious crimes (otherwise we would have no civilization). Still, a few of them would proceed to hurt people. However, who can say what was the key and if the key was crucial? It's no different from trying to guess why adults are raped.
In any case, the vast majority of people looking at loli art aren't going to assault anyone. No child in Japan would be safe if they did. That alone is evidence enough. Banning the art is just another "the minority ruins things for the majority" thing.
Anyway, I don't think I'm able to say anything more here. I'm already repeating myself as it is, and I'm not inclined to read articles on the subject, like you are doing. I've enough scientific background to recognise it would seem like I'm looking down on you if I only place opinions against your articles.
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One thing someone must tell me is this whole loli bla bla thing I thought the problem was the rape part? Since I'm quite stupid and only sixteen I am very inexperienced. (I also want to Apologize for my bad English) The Problem about Lolis .I can't understand it properly because rape is rape so in my Opinion it would be the same with all other media that depicts rape. Also the thing with mutual love between adult and underage kid. such specific case is illegal. I guess because the child isn't grown enough to jugde such things rationally and so on. so I don't see the point in arguing particually about depiction of child abuse and such so please explain for an inexperienced sixteen year old.
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@Rhaptopia Yeah it's called ecchi anime lol. (Dang it your name is so hard to spell. I keep writing Raphtopia cause of Raphtalia.)
Also, why are we still debating this? Didn't everyone agree that "reading loli hentai causes pedophilia is as ridiculous as violent video games cause violent behaviours"?
Also, why are we still debating this? Didn't everyone agree that "reading loli hentai causes pedophilia is as ridiculous as violent video games cause violent behaviours"?
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@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
I was just really curious since I am if what Holo says is correct in possesion of child pornograohy. Buy now half the price. I just didn't see the point in the discussion since it doesn't hold any important information in my opinion that is worth the discussion and further informs the participating parties. Welo since this discussion is over. Thank you very much again for answering.
I was just really curious since I am if what Holo says is correct in possesion of child pornograohy. Buy now half the price. I just didn't see the point in the discussion since it doesn't hold any important information in my opinion that is worth the discussion and further informs the participating parties. Welo since this discussion is over. Thank you very much again for answering.
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Wait hold on, if I'm a parent and I took a cute, nonmallicious video of my baby child bathing then am I in possession of cp?
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@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
OPEN UP! IT'S THE POLICE!
OPEN UP! IT'S THE POLICE!
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@Kaarme
Thank you for fairly engaging with me on this topic and the resulting constructive discussion. For future reference the percentage of potential paedophiles among the male population is probably around ~20% based on one study ( https://doi.org/10.1016/0145-2134(89)90030-6 )
@Rhaptopia
I'm going to engage with you against my better judgement despite feeling your posts have all the hallmarks of a troll. If you aren't a troll then my apologies in advance and some advice: advertising underage nudes of yourself on the internet is asking for trouble.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
Rather than the video games:violence analogy a more helpful comparison is alcohol. Most people can enjoy alcohol responsibly but it's bad for you in the long term and in large doses. In a few people it contributes to severe anti-social behaviour and some people use it to groom children for sexual abuse. No analogy is perfect but I hope it helps you understand the need for some restriction.
@Holo
I hope you and other staff have been following this discussion and understand the points I'm trying to make. If not I'll summarise:
- Virtual Child Pornography of any kind is illegal in most countries and according to international law. But manga scanlation doesn't stop just because piracy is illegal. This site takes a sensible view that profiting from piracy is what should be restricted.
- Loli/shota material has real world consequences for real children, perhaps in only few cases but given that the nature of the damage why is it so difficult for this community to have a sensible opinion on it other than unquestioning acceptance or enthusiastic support? Please do not mainstream it by hosting it on what you proudly claim is the most popular manga reader site in the world.
Thank you for fairly engaging with me on this topic and the resulting constructive discussion. For future reference the percentage of potential paedophiles among the male population is probably around ~20% based on one study ( https://doi.org/10.1016/0145-2134(89)90030-6 )
@Rhaptopia
I'm going to engage with you against my better judgement despite feeling your posts have all the hallmarks of a troll. If you aren't a troll then my apologies in advance and some advice: advertising underage nudes of yourself on the internet is asking for trouble.
Bottom line - Creating or sharing virtual child pornography is not a totally harmless activity. It has real world consequences for real children, perhaps in only few cases but given that the nature of the damage why is it so difficult for the anime/manga community to have a sensible opinion on it other than unquestioning acceptance or enthusiastic support?
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
See my replies in this post and please read my previous posts or even better read some academic papers on the subject.
Neither I nor anyone sensible is saying consuming loli/shota material means you're suddenly a paedophile. What is clear from numerous studies is that it can be a contributory factor for some people. I've made these points before if you'd read my previous posts.
Rather than the video games:violence analogy a more helpful comparison is alcohol. Most people can enjoy alcohol responsibly but it's bad for you in the long term and in large doses. In a few people it contributes to severe anti-social behaviour and some people use it to groom children for sexual abuse. No analogy is perfect but I hope it helps you understand the need for some restriction.
Go on to any social media platform and the sad reality is that sharing such videos publicly attracts real paedophiles and groomers to the comments section. To be clear I'm not saying you should stop taking videos of your kids or be criminalised for sharing them but sharing them publicly is a bad idea.
@Holo
I hope you and other staff have been following this discussion and understand the points I'm trying to make. If not I'll summarise:
- Virtual Child Pornography of any kind is illegal in most countries and according to international law. But manga scanlation doesn't stop just because piracy is illegal. This site takes a sensible view that profiting from piracy is what should be restricted.
- Loli/shota material has real world consequences for real children, perhaps in only few cases but given that the nature of the damage why is it so difficult for this community to have a sensible opinion on it other than unquestioning acceptance or enthusiastic support? Please do not mainstream it by hosting it on what you proudly claim is the most popular manga reader site in the world.
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I don't have H enabled, so can't really comment on the influx. If the "questionable" material is what I assume it is (as every other comment has hinted at), then I do think it's a bit of a dangerous game MD is playing. Better to fork off the H stuff and sandbox them in another domain, me thinks.
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Tl;Dr
Are They Migrating?
Yes, that seems to be the case.
Are They Migrating?
Yes, that seems to be the case.
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Oh and this discussion is it only about h manga with loli stuff or the ban of all depiction that could be seen sexually or even just normal stuff? Does this dicussion include for example figurines, already existing ecchi anime and other merchandise stuff etc. because the ban of these things would have an great economic impact and also on the fans who own that stuff and or have a idk bond with it. If it also includes that than it's billshit since it's well not worth it/useless idk but if it's only cp I honestly Don't care since it has no greater Influence on my life but there surely are a lot of dudes especially in Japan that own it often in larger quantity and stuff ehhh forgot my point well yeeeah iiiifffff you want to discuss stuff tell me. I'm unemployed.
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@AbyssalMonkey
Well I think what your saying is quite exaggerated. Also I don't see the connection between the first part and so on. I think it does have an effect that could be called similar to addiction since it is a fetish of sorts and that makes it obviously possible to be addicted sexually to a point where there isn't anything else that can satisfy you so your alcohol blabla is yeah blabla. Also the thing in the middle is that about Reality or drawn manga/written books? If it's reality then yee-aah ahha and if not ok.
Well I think what your saying is quite exaggerated. Also I don't see the connection between the first part and so on. I think it does have an effect that could be called similar to addiction since it is a fetish of sorts and that makes it obviously possible to be addicted sexually to a point where there isn't anything else that can satisfy you so your alcohol blabla is yeah blabla. Also the thing in the middle is that about Reality or drawn manga/written books? If it's reality then yee-aah ahha and if not ok.
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